OT: Hurricanes Lounge XLI: It's August

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Borsig

PoKechetkov
Nov 3, 2007
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I mean, I already knew this, but it is nice you came out and admitted it.
I don't want to. That's not who I am. But if I'm forced into it? You bet. And right now? We're pretty close to it.

I mean they did just pass a rule that makes me a felon if I dont disassemble a portion of my gun collection or register it.

Rule. Not law. A rule. After they issued (ATF) mutiple approval letters for said devices (braces).

So yeah. Keep pushing, I guess.

Maybe I’m naive but I just don’t understand why people think the gov’t would actually go door to door and confiscate guns. It just doesn’t seem feasible on many levels. Something like 70 million+ people in this country own guns and certainly a large percentage of military and LEO are a part of that. Just the logistics of it all don’t make sense not taking into account the amount of people that would protect themselves in that situation
You don't. You make them felons by refusing to give them up, then wait for them to slip up. You make them afraid to even go shoot the thing.
 

Borsig

PoKechetkov
Nov 3, 2007
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By no means am I accusing you of personal-level racism (I have no reason or basis to think that is true) but this line in a prior post really jumped out at me:





I grew up in NC during the Jesse Helms era, and was exposed at a young age to a fairly large amount of blatant neo-Confederate propaganda which was still largely socially acceptable outside of the city limits.

The sentence above is striking in that it resonates with a running theme in the Confederate ethos which I remember very clearly: the idea that Reconstruction was severely screwed up by the ruling power of the time (Yankees) and that black people suffer for that failure to this day.

It took me a long time to realize why this theme is so common in the rural South, and why it was especially popular in that Reagan/Helms era of dawning quasi-libertarian conservatism: it’s a clever twist on the legitimate value of “personal responsibility” which seamlessly pivots into a conclusion that some people should not be allowed the protections of citizenship.

Really back up and think about the scope of that argument. It is essentially saying that not everyone should be given equal rights under the law; and that if you find yourself outside the basic protections afforded by the rule of law, well, that’s your own fault and not the fault of the people who took your rights away.

Inevitably the line is drawn to current liberal politicians doing things “just as bad as slavery” with a long lingering pause over the evils of FDR — who in that same post you said should have been executed for treason. Again, a quick and clever pivot toward violence as the solution to political enemies. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard the suggestion that Lincoln should have been hanged, or FDR, or Obama. This pillar of the rhetoric is crucial because it connects past outrage to present action. Of course, not many people have very strong feelings about FDR anymore… but in the 1970s/80s he was a formative memory for older Republicans. I don’t mean to presume, but I’m guessing you’ve hated FDR since around that time.

Why was this line of rhetoric so useful to the Reagan/Helms era Republicans? Because it allows them to maintain the moral high ground on liberty AND campaign for the withdrawal of fundamental rights from certain parts of the population, at the same time. And with a little wink to a revenge fantasy that lies not-really-that-far below the surface of Southern conservatism. What’s not being said is the simplified version of the quote above: all our problems trace back to Yankees making things too easy on the Blacks. If we fix that, we’ll fix our society.

Inevitably the ethos points to a violent re-set as the “inevitable” conclusion, as a sort of cleansing event. This is strongly parallel to hardline evangelical rhetoric, which in the rural South goes hand-in-hand with political conservatism. It’s absolutely nothing to hear a rural Southern evangelical say they expect a civil war, most probably a race war, within their lifetime. It’s a built-in assumption that this needs to be prepared for.

The synchronized rhetorical messaging is intended to touch all those bases and give the recipient a warm fuzzy “these people are speaking my truth” feeling, while keeping the unsavory foundations (racism, political violence) below the surface where they can be dismissed as “exaggerations” or “maybe what some people believe, but that’s just the fringe”. That’s the whole trick of the thing — you get the fruit of the argument without having any visibility on where the roots are coming from.

I say all this because, again, I grew up hearing and largely believing this stuff, and it absolutely did lead me the direction of becoming a Libertarian in my early political years. So having had these thoughts in my head for a time, I recognize the flavor of your comments.

For me, the path out of that line of thinking was connected to two key realizations:

- Organized Libertarianism exists for the simple and disappointing purpose of pressuring the GOP to give tax cuts to corporations. The proof is in the actual work they do, especially when they go hard. It always connects back to corporate tax cuts in the end.

- “Personal liberty extremism” cannot include advocating for the withdrawal of citizenship from a portion of the populace just because they fall out of favor with the government. If anything, that’s a radically authoritarian philosophy wearing a flimsy libertarian mask (which again, Reagan era conservatism).
Long ass post.

Im not nearly old enough to have hated FDR before I was born or when I was a little kid lol. I didn't even realize what he'd done until probably the late 90s? I hate FDR because he literally rounded up american citizens and put them in camps. It's the single biggest violation of the constitution of the last 100 years. Period. The End. And everyone cheered. Maybe those Japanese Americans should have said no, behind the barrel of a rifle. Maybe today they would.

I'm not advocating taking people's rights away. I am saying far too many productive, good people suffer financially and have their liberty threatened because of the actions of the stupid. I don't know what the solution is. I do think a lot of people are too stupid to vote, or to care, and that's why we had so much fraud in the form of harvesting. If you don't think that's a problem (perhaps it isn't if it gets the guy you want elected) then IDK what to say.

Reagan was shit on personal liberty. All POTUS's are. I can't even think of the last POTUS that did anything to expand personal liberty on a global scale that wasn't targeted at a specific class.

Lincoln had a tough draw. And if slavery would have (and should have) been dealt with by the founding fathers (many wanted it GONE but the constitution would have never made it out of committee) we wouldn't have had the ACW. Sherman should have been hung. Not Lincoln. Sherman was the piece of shit. Lincoln did what he had to, unfortunately so did many in the south. Obama? He was just a divisive arrogant, smug prick. Obama gave us Trump, who gave us Biden. Its the pendulum. FDR literally imprisoned citizens for their race and heritage. At gunpoint.

Making an example of FDR for internment camps isn't political violence. However making an example the guy who say, leads the charge to repeal an amendement in the bill of rights would be.

Spain 1936 is political violence. Hanging Saddam was justice. Two different animals.

Reminder that the Constitution was written when the concept of an AR-15 would have been pure fantasy and when the treatment for mental health was locking them up, ignoring them or subjecting them to horrific treatments (well, not much has changed there)

So maybe we shouldn't be treating it as the "end all, be all" in a society where the mentally unwell could have easy access to AR-15s?
When the constitution was written, most individuals owned better arms (rifles) than the military regulars (smooth bores).
It's literally how many British officers were killed at standoff ranges by militia members.
 

Borsig

PoKechetkov
Nov 3, 2007
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Also, you want to go against the feds? A guy in Utah tried that a couple weeks ago. Big arsenal. He's dead now, because even with small arms the feds were much better trained. And the feds have tanks if they need them. And plenty of stuff that's much, much bigger and more powerful than those.

The idea that you resist tyranny with a rifle in the garage is lunacy. You resist tyranny by electing people who are dedicated to preserving democracy above and beyond any policy disagreements they have.
And what of when the government fails? What if tyrrany is the local mob?

I know some guys in afghanistan that fared pretty well with rifles and improvised explosives against the two biggest powers in the world over the last 40 or so years. They're still there and we aren't. Interesting that....
 

raynman

Registered User
Jan 20, 2013
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You guys hear about the new Pimento Cheese Chicken Sandwich at Chick-fil-A?

I'm very excited.
I am too. The Bojangles Cajun filet with pimento cheese was bangin’.

Kinda similar but not, there was this social media trend a while back where people put mac and cheese on top of fast food chicken sandwiches. I felt gross doing it but I’ll be damned if it wasn’t good.
 

Derailed75

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Jan 5, 2021
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I guess...me? I never heard that, or if I did, forgot about such a term.
During the Travin Martin/ George Zimmerman thing. The initial report was a young black child was shot to death but a white man. Turns out that child was over 6 feet tall, 16 or 17 ( I cant remember), and an extremely fit high school football player and George Zimmerman was Hispanic. Well after all the outrage was going the left wing media couldnt admit there "mistake" so they invented white hispanic to ensure the race hate they started would continue throughout the event.
 
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HisIceness

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You guys hear about the new Pimento Cheese Chicken Sandwich at Chick-fil-A?

I'm very excited.

200w.gif
 

SlavinAway

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Honest question, how was Obama divisive other than being black?

I ask this as someone who didn't vote for Obama either time (though I would today) and who voted for Trump in 2016. My family and most of my former circle are very right leaning in the "not saying the bad parts out loud" kind of way.

I guess I broke the usual mold as I've become progressively more left leaning the older I get. It does give me the perspective of both sides and allows me to see a lot of the malice hidden in usual talking points. I honestly cannot understand anyone who can rationalize Trump's continued popularity - 2016, sure I get it and fell for it myself; today, not a f***ing chance...
 
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Derailed75

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Honest question, how was Obama divisive other than being black?

I ask this as someone who didn't vote for Obama either time (though I would today) and who voted for Trump in 2016. My family and most of my former circle are very right leaning in the "not saying the bad parts out loud" kind of way.

I guess I broke the usual mold as I've become progressively more left leaning the older I get. It does give me the perspective of both sides and allows me to see a lot of the malice hidden in usual talking points. I honestly cannot understand anyone who can rationalize Trump's continued popularity - 2016, sure I get it and fell for it myself; today, not a f***ing chance...
Going back to the Zimmerman/Martin thing he said that Martin "could have been his son" before getting any info on what actually happened, when the media was still pushing the white killed a black angle. I dont think he meant it that way but thats how it came out.

I voted for him the first go round based on his hope and change mission statement. I thought that meant he was fundamentally going to change the way the government worked back to how it is supposed to be you know "for the people, by the people" but that wasnt true at all he was just another cog in the left right fight. The kicker was Obama care being pushed through with the "we need to pass this so we can find out what is in it" mentality and then finding out that this great health care bill didnt even apply to federal politicians.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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Sep 6, 2006
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Also, you want to go against the feds? A guy in Utah tried that a couple weeks ago. Big arsenal. He's dead now, because even with small arms the feds were much better trained. And the feds have tanks if they need them. And plenty of stuff that's much, much bigger and more powerful than those.

The idea that you resist tyranny with a rifle in the garage is lunacy. You resist tyranny by electing people who are dedicated to preserving democracy above and beyond any policy disagreements they have.
 
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Unsustainable

Seth Jarvis has Big Kahunas
Apr 14, 2012
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I don't want to. That's not who I am. But if I'm forced into it? You bet. And right now? We're pretty close to it.

I mean they did just pass a rule that makes me a felon if I dont disassemble a portion of my gun collection or register it.

Rule. Not law. A rule. After they issued (ATF) mutiple approval letters for said devices (braces).

So yeah. Keep pushing, I guess.


You don't. You make them felons by refusing to give them up, then wait for them to slip up. You make them afraid to even go shoot the thing.
But they are going door to door checking on people who buy guns and gun parts....
 

cptjeff

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Going back to the Zimmerman/Martin thing he said that Martin "could have been his son" before getting any info on what actually happened, when the media was still pushing the white killed a black angle. I dont think he meant it that way but thats how it came out.
Yeah, so the "divisive" part was him being black.

You really do have to realize how that one looked from the perspective of a black person. Guy who absolutely had white skin hunting down a black teenager who was doing absolutely nothing wrong and was trying to get away from the guy chasing him with a gun. The history of race in the US is such that that is never, never, never going to be seen as anything other than racist. And let's be damn real here- it absolutely was. Martin was doing absolutly nothing but walking to the store. The only thing that made him "suspicious" in anyone's mind was that he was a black male. From the POV of a black man like Barack Obama who had also been regarded as supicious simply because of his skin color (despite being, let's be real here, a total dork), that was something that could easily have happened to him, or a son if he had one. Becuase Martin was regarded as suspicious simply for existing while black.
 
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Derailed75

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Jan 5, 2021
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Yeah, so the "divisive" part was him being black.

You really do have to realize how that one looked from the perspective of a black person. Guy who absolutely had white skin hunting down a black teenager who was doing absolutely nothing wrong and was trying to get away from the guy chasing him with a gun. The history of race in the US is such that that is never, never, never going to be seen as anything other than racist. And let's be damn real here- it absolutely was. Martin was doing absolutly nothing but walking to the store. The only thing that made him "suspicious" in anyone's mind was that he was a black male. From the POV of a black man like Barack Obama who had also been regarded as supicious simply because of his skin color (despite being, let's be real here, a total dork), that was something that could easily have happened to him, or a son if he had one. Becuase Martin was regarded as suspicious simply for existing while black.

No the devisive part was taking a side in a racial issue solely because it was a racial issue. There was no evidence of what happened at the time. George Zimmerman absolutely looks Hispanic and not a word of what you posted was backed by evidence, also not a bit of what Zimmerman claimed happened was backed by evidence either, to be fair. So either of us posting what happened is speculation and heresy.

What we do know is a Hispanic person shot a black person, the media tried to make it into a black white issue, and the then President who was black flanned the flames by taking a side before getting info.
 
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LakeLivin

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The only problem with that thought is that the liberal left media force feeds the race card to the public. If you step back and look you can see them feeding the fire of the conservative religious right with their constant rhetoric.

Who could forget "White Hispanic" when they found out Zimmerman wasn't white but needed that whole thing to be about race.

I guess...me? I never heard that, or if I did, forgot about such a term.

During the Travin Martin/ George Zimmerman thing. The initial report was a young black child was shot to death but a white man. Turns out that child was over 6 feet tall, 16 or 17 ( I cant remember), and an extremely fit high school football player and George Zimmerman was Hispanic. Well after all the outrage was going the left wing media couldnt admit there "mistake" so they invented white hispanic to ensure the race hate they started would continue throughout the event.

Going back to the Zimmerman/Martin thing he said that Martin "could have been his son" before getting any info on what actually happened, when the media was still pushing the white killed a black angle. I dont think he meant it that way but thats how it came out.

I voted for him the first go round based on his hope and change mission statement. I thought that meant he was fundamentally going to change the way the government worked back to how it is supposed to be you know "for the people, by the people" but that wasnt true at all he was just another cog in the left right fight. The kicker was Obama care being pushed through with the "we need to pass this so we can find out what is in it" mentality and then finding out that this great health care bill didnt even apply to federal politicians.

I don't recall "white hispanic" either but I trust you if you say it was used. Describing Martin as a young child is spin. But aren't you doing something silmilar? You describe him as an over 6' tall extremely fit high school football player; that seems to imply (or at least opens the possibility of, for those who choose to interpret it that way) a physically imposing young adult (could be a 6' 270 lb lineman, or a 6'4" 220 lb linebacker). In reality, Martin was 5'11" and 158 lbs. Not a child, but I certainly wouldn't consider that physically imposing.

I can actually sympathize with Zimmerman's suspicions; it was how he dealt with them that was the problem. He lived in a primarily white, gated neighborhood that had been subject to break ins. A young black man cutting through back yards would have been out of place. But Zimmerman almost certainly never entertained the possibility the kid was innocent. He was furious (as seen in his 911 calls), stalked Martin, confronted him even though the cops told him not to, and a physical altercation occurred. The most rational scenario is that Zimmerman tried to restrain Martin, who fought back. That makes a lot more sense than Martin, a 17 year old kid with no history of violence, attacking Zimmerman, a man with previous assault charges against him as well as domestic violence restraining orders). So wouldn't it have been Martin who had the right to stand his ground?

I can see how one might question whether or not Zimmerman's original suspicions about Martin stemmed from racism or were situational. But he was wrong, and given how the situation played out I have a hard time seeing how the jury didn't find him guilty of manslaughter. Again, if anyone had the right to "stand their ground" it would have been Martin. It's the jury verdict where I'm pretty comfortable that racism subconsciously crept into the situation. I can't think of any other rational explanation for the not guilty verdict.
 

Anton Dubinchuk

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I actually had not and my family are big Chick-fil-A fans, signature members on the app lol.

Bojangles pimiento cheese chicken biscuits were amazing. Chick-fil-A is another level though.

I’m low this year, we’ve been trying to eat out less.

In late December if I’m still short, I might order a big catering thing for all of our friends to ensure I hit Signature next year. :laugh:
 
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Finlandia WOAT

js7.4x8fnmcf5070124
May 23, 2010
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I don't want to. That's not who I am. But if I'm forced into it? You bet
Right. Standard authoritarian-minded thinking.

Most people who abet authoritarian regimes do so in the knowledge that said authoritarian regime won't bother *them*, while the authoritarian regime works hard to make sure to maintain that "normal" life for this bulwark of support.

So yeah. Keep pushing, I guess.

This is why I don't buy your "I'm just a peaceful, liberty loving guy" rhetoric: you can't help but accompany that with vague threats of violence over things that piss you off.
 

Derailed75

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I will admit I didn't look up Martin and thought he was taller. I do remember hearing he was a WO or a DB so I know he wasn't huge but was in fact pretty fit. I didn't realize he was only 5'11. While I do agree with you I feel Zimmerman was at some kind of fault I think the main issue and reason he wasn't found guilty is I dont think there was enough evidence to say his claim the Martin came after him was not true. For good or bad our system requires proof beyond a shadow of doubt, and I dont think that was there.
 

LakeLivin

Armchair Quarterback
Mar 11, 2016
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I actually had not and my family are big Chick-fil-A fans, signature members on the app lol.

Bojangles pimiento cheese chicken biscuits were amazing. Chick-fil-A is another level though.

And Popeyes chicken sandwich is even better than Chick-fil-A.

Uh, oh, NOW we're about to get into a controversial topic that's sure to get the thread locked down!
 

Blueline Bomber

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When the constitution was written, most individuals owned better arms (rifles) than the military regulars (smooth bores).
It's literally how many British officers were killed at standoff ranges by militia members.

Completely missed the point.

How many people could those rifles kill at one time? I'm no gun expert by any means, but I assume those rifles were the "fire a shot, reload by stuffing powder, aim and fire again"?

So if a "bad guy with a gun" decided to do some bad things with said rifle, I imagine the impact would be relatively minimal compared to something like an AR, yes?

So again, I'm making the assumption that the founding fathers would probably have rethought the 2nd Amendment if they had even the slightest notion than the average citizen could own and use something like the AR-15. Let alone the thought that a mentally unstable person could do the same.
 

Navin R Slavin

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Jan 1, 2011
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I will admit I didn't look up Martin and thought he was taller. I do remember hearing he was a WO or a DB so I know he wasn't huge but was in fact pretty fit. I didn't realize he was only 5'11. While I do agree with you I feel Zimmerman was at some kind of fault I think the main issue and reason he wasn't found guilty is I dont think there was enough evidence to say his claim the Martin came after him was not true. For good or bad our system requires proof beyond a shadow of doubt, and I dont think that was there.
Now do Elijah McClain.
 

LakeLivin

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Mar 11, 2016
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I will admit I didn't look up Martin and thought he was taller. I do remember hearing he was a WO or a DB so I know he wasn't huge but was in fact pretty fit. I didn't realize he was only 5'11. While I do agree with you I feel Zimmerman was at some kind of fault I think the main issue and reason he wasn't found guilty is I dont think there was enough evidence to say his claim the Martin came after him was not true. For good or bad our system requires proof beyond a shadow of doubt, and I dont think that was there.

But it's not proof beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Zimmerman had a history of violence, was armed, furious, stalked the kid, and confronted him when the cops told them not to. The kid was doing nothing wrong, had no history of violence, and was moving away from Zimmerman. Think about it; if we used the standard you state, someone could initiate a fight, kill the other guy, and as long as there were no witnesses, claim he was attacked and stand no chance of conviction.
 
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