After re-reading the discussion on Henrik Zetterberg, I think we should call him a center for the purposes of this project. It's where he has spent the majority of both his career and prime by this point.
The counterargument is that Zetterberg is still considered a "left wing" by the NHL database and he was ranked as a LW by TSN when they ranked players all-time by position. But I'm thinking that at this point (after another top 20 finish in scoring as a C in 2012-13), he has spent too much time at C to ignore. We all know that the only reason other outlets consider him a LW is because the NHL hasn't bothered to change their database, right?
How about look at how many faceoffs he took?
2003: 5.0 per game, 7th on Detroit, even less than Avery who was listed as a LW, he was listed as LW himself, three Wings had as much as double. I'd call this season 30% C
2004: 10.3 per game, 4th on Detroit, much less than 3rd place Draper but not much ahead of anyone else. Listed as a LW. I'd call this season 50% C
2006: 7.6 per game, 4th on Detroit, much less than 3rd place Lang but not much ahead of anyone else. Listed as LW. I'd call this season 40% C
2007: Still listed as a LW (OK, maybe we shouldn't care what he's listed as). 14.1 per game, Draper was 1st with 15.3 per game. Assume Draper was a center 100% of the time. Due to less GP, they played the same number of total minutes but Hank took 70% as many faceoffs. I'd call this season 70% C
2008: Led the team in faceoffs taken, by a wide margin. No reason to believe this was anything but 100% C
2009: Led team in faceoffs, but not by a wide margin. Total faceoffs were very proportional to Dasyuk and Draper compared to TOI. Probably 100% C
2010: See 2009.
2011: Led team in total faceoffs but both Helm, Filppula and Datsyuk were exceeding his faceoffs per minute played (0.86, 0.78, 0.73, 0.63). this season was more like 80% C
2012: 0.69 faceoffs per minute, Datsuk had 0.91, Helm had 0.78. Again, probably about 80% C
2013: Looks like closer to 60% C, considering Datsyuk had about 60% more faceoffs per minute, and played center all season.
30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 80, 100, 100, 100 = he's a center.
Updated List for the Centers Project
Consider him a center
- Mark Messier - C/LW - definitely primarily a C
- Cyclone Taylor - Rover/C/D - How do we handle him? He's a Rover first, but Rover was kind of like a modern C. Consider him a C for our purposes (see post 99)
- Frank Nighbor - C/LW - majority of his career and best years at C
- Alex Delvecchio - C/LW - played C for the majority of his career - played LW when Norm Ullman was moved to the top line (see posts 14 and 34)
- Sid Abel - C/LW - 3 of 4 All Star nods at C, more time at C than LW, he's a C more than a LW
- Hooley Smith - C/RW - all AS nods at C, natural C who moved to RW when the team already had a star C. Call him a C.
- Alexander Maltsev - C/RW - call him a C (see posts 52, 55, 56)
- Mickey MacKay - C/rover - He can be included as a C, unless we do a separate category for rovers
- Rod Brind'amour - C/LW - mostly a C
- Phil Watson - C/RW - mostly a C
- Neil Colville - C/D - seems the majority of his prime was at C and we didn't include him as a D anyway
- Don McKenney - C/LW - C (see posts 18 and 20)
- Jack Adams - C/LW - mostly a C
- John Madden - C/LW - mostly a C
- Fleming MacKell - C/LW - mostly a C
- Tod Sloan - C/RW - best years at C
- Tommy Smith - C/LW - spent more time at C than LW (see post 59)
- Fred Stanfield - C/LW - mostly a C
- Red Berenson - C/LW - majority of best years at C
- Clint Smith - C/LW - most AS recogntion at C. Call him a C
- Brian Rolston - F - played all positions, but his best years seemed to be at C. (post 210)
- Blair Russel - C/RW - nature C who would move to RW when Russel Bowie played C. Call him a C (post 211)
Not a center
- Anatoli Firsov - LW/C - only played C at the very end of his career. Call him a LW
- Doug Bentley, LW/C - call him LW (see posts 9 and 10)
- Reg Noble - LW/D/C - spent a large part of his career on D, but when he was forward, he was usually a LW (see posts 31, 50)
- Patrick Elias - LW/C - mostly a LW
- Keith Tkachuk - LW/C - prime as a LW
- Rusty Crawford - LW/C - mostly a LW
- Ed Litzenberger - C/RW - mostly a RW (see posts 109 and 122)
- Don Marcotte, F - LW by default unless there was someone specific to check
- Trevor Linden - C/RW - call him RW (see posts 2 and 29)
- Vladimir Vikulov - RW/C - mostly RW
- Lynn Patrick - C/LW - most AS recognition at LW. Call him a LW
- Dave Andreychuk - LW/C - prime as LW
- Bob Pulford - C/LW - 2/3 of his career seems to have been at LW. Call him a LW. (See posts 36, 47)
Agree with all of this. My own research and experience backs all this up. Except Maltsev and Pulford, in which cases I am deferring to those who know more.
More discussion needed
- Syd Howe, LW/C/D (see posts 105, 107)
- Henrik Zetterberg - C/LW (see posts 26, 38, 42, 46, 48, 49, 70, 208)
- Frank Foyston, F
- Bernie Morris - C/RW
- Jack Walker - F
- Vaclav Nedomansky - C/RW (see posts 35, 39, 53, 54)
- Kirk Muller - LW/C
- Vincent Damphousse - C/LW
- Harry Westwick, F
- Jack Marshall - F/D
- Patrik Marleau - C/LW
- Kent Nilsson - C/RW
Red Kelly, Dit Clapper, Eddie Gerard, Ebbie Goodfellow, Babe Siebert and Mosse Johnson were already decided to be primarily defensemen.[/QUOTE]
my takes:
- Can't say for sure Howe is a LW or C, but obviously his time at D was nowhere near significant enough.
- 3 Seattle Players: Foyston was mostly a C as far as I could ever tell. I know there have been a few references to him at RW but - someone correct me if I'm wrong - he was usually the C of the Walker-Foyston-Morris line which was together for 7 full seasons (17-23)... this was the most significant time of all three players' careers and pretty much answers the question for all three of them if it's true.
1917: the playoffs according to The Trail, had Walker at RW-R-RW-R, Foyston at L-L-L-L, and Morris at C-C-C-C. Doesn't prove what it was in the season, but it helps.
1918: Walker did not play. Foyston was listed as Rover both games, Morris Center.
1919: Walker was listed as Rover both games. Foyston was simply a wing, but it was not mentioned which one. Based on the other games with other teams this season, it appears they went with RWs on top, LWs on the bottom. He was likely RW once, LW the other times. Morris did not play.
1920: Morris is listed as having 5 GP, but in two summaries he's not listed at all, in the other three he is RW-RW_sub. Walker was R-R-RW-R-RW-R-RW. Foyston was F-F-C-C-C-C-C (listed on top vs. Roberts once, on bottom opposite Harris once, so almost certainly L then RW)
1921: Walker was Rover both games. Foyston was W both games (both times on same line as Alf Skinner, so likely RW). Morris was listed as a sub one game, and the opposite wing as Foyston the other, so RW.
1922: Foyston was LW-C in 2 games, Morris RW-RW, Walker R-R.
no playoffs for Seattle in 1923.
So based on these 7 seasons, here's what we have:
Walker:
RW: 5
R: 12
Morris:
C: 6
RW: 5
sub: 2
Foyston:
C: 10
R: 2
LW: 3
RW: 4
Well that's kinda weird, that we may end up calling all three of them centers despite them usually being on the same sheet of ice together. The reason is, one of them was always a center, one a rover (closest to center), and one a winger, with another guy like Cully Wilson or Jim Riley on the other wing.
Maybe their other playoff games can add extra illumination... here's what I have for their other playoff games:
Foyston:
C: 7
sub: 11
Walker:
LW: 10
RW: 13
Morris:
C: 1
RW: 2
LW: 1
so if we can say their playoff games tell the story (and they did play a much larger proportion of playoff games than most players in their day, and playoffs should be weighted more heavily to begin with), Foyston is a clear center, Walker a clear RW and Morris is a 7-7 RW-C split.
Muller: The TOI sheet tends to be mostly correct, and it has him as LW in 86-92, and C the other 12 seasons. However, His 6 highest scoring seasons, in order, are 88, 93, 90, 92, 87, 89. He was apparently a LW in 5 of those 6. Tough one.
Nedomansky: I'll leave that to someone else.
Damphousse: was apparently a LW for 9 seasons, then a C for 9 seasons. If that's true, his best 2 seasons were as a C, but next 4 best were as LW. Needs further research.
Westwick: The Trail has him as a rover. No time to research all his playoff games.
Marshall: The Trail explicitly describes his career. He was a forward pre-NHA, and a defenceman in the NHA (so, 8 seasons of each). Considering he led the regular season in scoring one season and playoffs another as a forward, and was never a true all-star defenseman (just a solid respected vet, but not a Joe Hall, Cleghorn, Ross, etc) he should be a forward.
Marleau: Let's not kid ourselves and imagine we're considering him. But he's been mostly a center aside from a few recent seasons. and was he really a better player those seasons, or did he have better linemates than in the other years of his career?
Nilsson: I don't know, I thought he was always center. But does it matter?
