HOH Top Forwards - Determining positions. Updated Wingers list Post 276

[Canadiens1958]

Syd Howe Era Red Wings

A few points about the Syd Howe era Red Wings that have not been considered. Game story and Marc McNeil column from March 25, 1936 following the classic 6OT Red Wings - Maroons playoff game. Note the reference in McNeil's column to the Red Wings using three lines,two pairings. Rosters at the time were set at 14 skaters plus a goalie as evidenced by the Red Wings playoff roster.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=kX8tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=I5kFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5908,3093685

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/DET/1936.html

Notice the balanced Red Wings scoring, especially amongst the forwards.

This required versatility from the forwards. The ability to play two forward positions or more or forward and defence. This attribute came with a price - reduced AST and award consideration.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Out of curiously, why'd you consider Big Ned a center?

Just recalling most of the articles and stuff I have read on him talk about him being a center and the style of play sounded more like a center, but going off memory here, reading the rest of the thread it looks like that's probably what he was most of the time.

It will be really interesting to see how he and Kent fare if we do a top 60, if they even show up.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

I would say any Habs during that 70s dynasty had their careers largely defined by those years in particular; partially because it arguably represented "the best" or "epitome" of most of their careers as well. But see, that actually makes Zetterberg's more difficult. Detroit was a bigger powerhouse (arguably) and Zetterberg was a higher scorer during that '03-'08 window when he was mostly a winger. I would say that the team is "better" with Zetterberg as one of the centres, so perhaps that's a large component of forming my opinion here.

Why cut his peak in half? And are his 85 in 77 that much better than his 80 in 80, especially given the uptick in PPs that year and his getting to play with Lidstrom?

Also, watched a few Zetterberg/Datsyuk shifts from 07-08, when Zetterberg really began to take over as far as draws go. It looks like he's the center and Dats is the LW, even well after faceoff situations.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Why cut his peak in half? And are his 85 in 77 that much better than his 80 in 80, especially given the uptick in PPs that year and his getting to play with Lidstrom?

Also, watched a few Zetterberg/Datsyuk shifts from 07-08, when Zetterberg really began to take over as far as draws go. It looks like he's the center and Dats is the LW, even well after faceoff situations.

I don't know where the "cut his peak in half" means, but there is a fairly distinct line before which Zetterberg was a 40 goal threat, and after which was more of a puck distributor finding other ways to similar point totals. I'm willing to bet that wingers (particularly higher scoring ones) converted to centre have exhibited the same trends for many years across many cities. But even after Yzerman, Fedorov, and Larionov's spots opened up down the middle on the Red Wings between '02/03 and '06/07 (the first year of no Yzerman), they filled the positions with guys like Lang, Draper, Franzen etc before the era of Zetterberg as a more than occasional centre.

As for the '07/08 shifts you watched, did you happen to notice if it was special teams (PK/PP)?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Haven't read about that. Actually, he seems pretty well remembered to me, maybe not as much as the Stastnys or Golonka, but definitely on par or above the likes of Martinec and Novy.

I'm thinking of that "best Czechoslovakian players of all time by Czechoslovakian experts" that came in in the late 90s and has floated around here. It has Nedomansky shockingly low. But then it also has Suchy and Holecek lower than you would think they should be, so maybe it was just a strange group of voters.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bernie Morris

It appears from post 212 that Morris' career was almost exactly split between C and RW. In such a case, perhaps we should look at where a player played during his greatest stretch of hockey. For Morris, that would clearly be the 1917 playoffs.

Did you know the first American based team to win the Stanley Cup was the Seattle Metropolitans. Representing the Pacific Coast Hockey Association, the western equal of the NHL back then, the Mets won it in 1917, defeating the Montreal Canadiens 3 games to 1 (best of five final).


The star of the Seattle Mets was this man, Bernie Morris. Morris would have been the obvious choice as Stanley Cup MVP had they had such an award back then. He led all contestants with 14 goals in the 4 game series, including 6 goals in game 3.

According to the Trail, Morris was a center for the 1917 playoffs. (see post 212)

It's something of a "tiebreak" in the absence of more information presented.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Jack Marshall

In the absence of better information (anyone want to do a quick look through the Trail?), it looks like the "traditional" sources would have him as a center first.

wikipedia lists him as C/D, the HHOF website lists him as a C (their site doesn't do split positions at all), and hockey-reference has him as a C. hockeydb doesn't even have him listed.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So these are the last 4 players that seem to be questionable

• Syd Howe, LW/C/D (see posts 105, 107, 245, 246)
• Bernie Morris - C/RW (see post 212, 256)
• Vaclav Nedomansky - C/RW (see posts 35, 39, 53, 54, 215, 219, 242, 243, 248, 249)
• Jack Marshall - F/D (primarily a forward, but which one? See post 212, 257)

Based on the information presented so far, I would make Syd Howe eligible for the Left Wing list, and the other 3 eligible for the Centre list.

Keeping this thread open for another couple of days though.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

I don't know where the "cut his peak in half" means, but there is a fairly distinct line before which Zetterberg was a 40 goal threat, and after which was more of a puck distributor finding other ways to similar point totals.

Fair. I have his "peak" between 07 and 09.

As for goal scoring, Z is an interesting case. While his scoring peak did come mostly at LW, his two biggest goal scoring seasons were fueled by 16 and 17 PPGs in 08 and 06, and he was top 2 in Detroit forwards at ESGs as many times after 08 as he was before. I remember hearing stuff about his back being hurt, so I wonder if that lost explosiveness had as much to do with that as a position change.

I'm willing to bet that wingers (particularly higher scoring ones) converted to centre have exhibited the same trends for many years across many cities. But even after Yzerman, Fedorov, and Larionov's spots opened up down the middle on the Red Wings between '02/03 and '06/07 (the first year of no Yzerman), they filled the positions with guys like Lang, Draper, Franzen etc before the era of Zetterberg as a more than occasional centre.

That's really only 3 seasons. Guys get broken in on the wing all the time, and Detroit was sort of historically stacked at the center position. Granted, it probably could've happened sooner, and then we wouldn't be having this debate at all.

As for the '07/08 shifts you watched, did you happen to notice if it was special teams (PK/PP)?

I made sure to stick to ES stuff, but they were goal scoring plays, so it's definitely not perfect data.

Edit - IIRC eva has a post about Dats as a winger somewhere. I'll do my damndest to dig it up when not on my phone.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Jack Marshall

In the absence of better information (anyone want to do a quick look through the Trail?), it looks like the "traditional" sources would have him as a center first.

wikipedia lists him as C/D, the HHOF website lists him as a C (their site doesn't do split positions at all), and hockey-reference has him as a C. hockeydb doesn't even have him listed.

During his forward years Marshall had 12 playoff games with 8 starts at center and 4 games as a substitute.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Updated List for the Centers Project

Consider him a center

• Jack Adams - C/LW - mostly a C
• Sid Abel - C/LW - 3 of 4 All Star nods at C, more time at C than LW, he's a C more than a LW
• Red Berenson - C/LW - majority of best years at C
• Rod Brind'amour - C/LW - mostly a C
• Neil Colville - C/D - seems the majority of his prime was at C and we didn't include him as a D anyway
• Alex Delvecchio C/LW - played C for the majority of his career - played LW when Norm Ullman was moved to the top line (see posts 14 and 34)
• Sergei Fedorov
• Frank Foyston, F - played more C than any other position (see posts 212, 218)
• Mickey MacKay - C/rover - He can be included as a C, unless we do a separate category for rovers
• Fleming MacKell - C/LW - mostly a C
• John Madden - C/LW - mostly a C
• Joe Malone - C/LW - played C, except when he briefly played with Newsy Lalonde (see post 271)
• Alexander Maltsev - C/RW - call him a C (see posts 52, 55, 56)
• Patrik Marleau - C/LW - played C normally, moved to LW to accommodate Thornton
• Jack Marshall - F/D - primarily a forward. Played mainly C in Cup challenges (See post 212, 257, 260)
• Don McKenney - C/LW - C (see posts 18 and 20)
• Mark Messier - C/LW - definitely primarily a C
• Bernie Morris - C/RW - split pretty evenly but his best playoff series was at C(see post 212, 256)
• Kirk Muller - C/LW - consider him a C (see posts 15, 216, 217)
• Vaclav Nedomansky - C/RW - likely played mostly C for his adult career (see posts 35, 39, 53, 54, 215, 219, 242, 243, 248, 249)
• Frank Nighbor - C/LW - majority of his career and best years at C
• Kent Nilsson - C/RW - natural C
• Brian Rolston - F - played all positions, but his best years seemed to be at C. (post 210)
• Blair Russel - C/RW - nature C who would move to RW when Russel Bowie played C. Call him a C (post 211)
• Tod Sloan - C/RW - best years at C
• Clint Smith - C/LW - most AS recogntion at C. Call him a C
• Hooley Smith - C/RW - all AS nods at C, natural C who moved to RW when the team already had a star C. Call him a C.
• Tommy Smith - C/LW - spent more time at C than LW (see post 59, 271)
• Fred Stanfield - C/LW - mostly a C
• Cyclone Taylor - Rover/C/D - He's a Rover first, but and rover was closest to a modern C. Consider him a C for our purposes (see post 99)
• Phil Watson - C/RW - mostly a C
• Harry Westwick, F - purely a rover, who may have sometimes also played C. Call him a C (see posts 223, 225)
• Henrik Zetterberg - C/LW (see posts 26, 38, 42, 46, 48, 49, 70, 208, 212, 218)

Not a center

• Dave Andreychuk - LW/C - prime as LW
• George Armstrong - played RW on the dynasty team, RW on Punch Imlach's "All-Maple Leaf Team"
• Doug Bentley, LW/C - primarily a LW (see posts 9 and 10)
• Rusty Crawford - LW/C - mostly a LW
• Vincent Damphousse - C/LW - consider him a LW (see posts 15, 216, 217)
• Patrick Elias - LW/C - mostly a LW
• Anatoli Firsov - LW/C - only played C at the very end of his career. Call him a LW
• Syd Howe - LW/C/D - seems to have played a little more LW than C (see posts 105, 107, 245, 246)
• Trevor Linden - RW/C - call him RW (see posts 2 and 29)
• Ed Litzenberger - RW/C - mostly a RW (see posts 109 and 122)
• Don Marcotte - F - LW by default unless there was someone specific to check
• Reg Noble - LW/D/C - spent a large part of his career on D, but when he was forward, he was usually a LW (see posts 31, 50)
• Lynn Patrick - LW/C - most AS recognition at LW. Call him a LW
• Bob Pulford - LW/C - 2/3 of his career seems to have been at LW. Call him a LW. (See posts 36, 47, 214)
• Keith Tkachuk - LW/C - prime as a LW
• Vladimir Vikulov - RW/C - mostly RW
• Jack Walker - F - a rover first, a winger second. Almost always played wing when he was moved up front, so call him a wing (See posts 212, 218, 227)

 

[tarheelhockey]

So are we pretty well settled on this, then? It looks like we have a reasonable estimate for everyone.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So are we pretty well settled on this, then? It looks like we have a reasonable estimate for everyone.

I'm willing to reopen some of these if more information comes up, but if not, I'm satisfied with what we have.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I missed the discussion, but of the players I'm very familiar with, you made all the right call (Colville, Sloan, Vikulov, L.Patrick)

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Recently someone discovered that Joe Malone spent time a lot of time at LW when he played for Quebec with Tommy Smith at center. Are we considering Malone a Center?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Recently someone discovered that Joe Malone spent time a lot of time at LW when he played for Quebec with Tommy Smith at center. Are we considering Malone a Center?

I never considered him anything but a C. Should I have? I had thought he only played LW when playing with Lalonde for one season

 

[Canadiens1958]

Tommy Smith / Joe Malone

I never considered him anything but a C. Should I have? I had thought he only played LW when playing with Lalonde for one season

The Gazette archives via Google cover the seasons in question.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Recently someone discovered that Joe Malone spent time a lot of time at LW when he played for Quebec with Tommy Smith at center. Are we considering Malone a Center?

okay, I'm really confused, because earlier in this thread, you said this:

It is my understanding that Tommy Smith played center until he joined the Quebec Bulldogs where he moved to LW because Joe Malone played center. I'm not sure which position he played for his 1 year with the Canadiens, who had Newsey Lalonde, or his half season with the Toronto Shamrocks. Here's the breakdown...

C: 7 years before Quebec
LW: 4 1/2 years with Quebec
Unknown: 1 1/2 years with Montreal and Toronto

Most sources list him as a center, and there are quotes about his outstanding faceoff ability. I'd probably call him a center.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

okay, I'm really confused, because earlier in this thread, you said this:

So am I


Think it was Malone playing LW on an ATD team this year that had me confused combined with the semi-recent discovery that Smith was the best player on those Bulldog Cup teams, not Malone. Apologies for the mix-up.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So am I


Think it was Malone playing LW on an ATD team this year that had me confused combined with the semi-recent discovery that Smith was the best player on those Bulldog Cup teams, not Malone. Apologies for the mix-up.

We should have Malone listed above anyway, since he is listed as a C/LW on many sites.

Just making sure - your first post was correct about Tommy Smith playing C until he went to Quebec, where played LW because Joe Malone was already entrenched at C? (So they are both primarily Cs for our purposes?)

 

[Rob Scuderi]

We should have Malone listed above anyway, since he is listed as a C/LW on many sites.

Just making sure - your first post was correct about Tommy Smith playing C until he went to Quebec, where played LW because Joe Malone was already entrenched at C? (So they are both primarily Cs for our purposes?)

Smith moved to left wing when he came to Quebec with Malone holding the center spot. His playoff games in the Ontario and Maritime leagues were at center. Smith only played two playoff games with Quebec and one was at LW and one at C. His game at center came because Malone didn't play the second game of the series against Sydney.

Malone moved to left wing when he joined the Canadiens with Lalonde at center.

Overall, here's what I could pull from the playoff writeups in Trail.

Malone
C - 4
LW - 2
sub - 6

Smith
C - 6
Rover - 1
LW - 1
sub - 3

Seems like we can consider both centers.

 

[Hardyvan123]

just to clarify George Armstrong isn't a center for this project right?

I didn't see his name on this list which was provided in post 1 in this thread.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=70266929&postcount=261

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

just to clarify George Armstrong isn't a center for this project right?

I didn't see his name on this list which was provided in post 1 in this thread.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=70266929&postcount=261

Added to list as a RW. I think he switched back and forth between C and RW in early years, but he was a RW during the dynasty years and is remembered as a RW.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Added to list as a RW. I think he switched back and forth between C and RW in early years, but he was a RW during the dynasty years and is remembered as a RW.

Thanks for the clarification.

I went through about 120 guys or so and that's the only one I was unsure of, now the fun part.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The issue of Marty Barry's position in 1934 has been raised during Round 2, and this thread seems like the best place to stash the research for future use.

Here is how the Bruins' lines broke down in 1933-34:
* I can only assume that the wings were listed in a consistent LW/RW format, since they are each listed simply as "wing" in the summaries.

11-9-33
Gracie-Barry-Clapper
vs
TOR Boll-Primeau-Conacher

11-11-33
Gracie-Barry-Clapper
vs
MTM Trottier-Smith-Ward

11-14-33
Gracie-Barry-Clapper
vs
DET Emms-Goodfellow-Carson

11-18-33
Gracie-Barry-Clapper
vs
MTL Gagnon-Morenz-Joliat

11-21-33
Gracie-Barry-Clapper
vs
CHI Thompson-Gottselig-Couture

11-23-33
Gracie-Barry-Clapper
vs
DET Emms-Goodfellow-Carson

11-26-33
Gracie-Barry-Clapper
vs
CHI Thompson-Gottselig-Couture

11-28-33
Gracie-Barry-Clapper
vs.
OTT Shannon-Voss-Finnigan

11-30-33
Gracie-Barry-Clapper
vs
OTT Shannon-Voss-Finnigan

12-02-33
Gracie-Barry-Clapper
vs
NYR Cook-Boucher-Cook

12-05-33
Gracie-Barry-Clapper
vs
MTL Gagnon-Morenz-Joliat

12-09-33
* Starting line was Gracie-Beattie-Lamb, but the following appear in the scoring summary: Clapper (Barry, Gracie), Stewart (Beattie) and Barry (Gracie). Apparently the usual lines were being used, so it's not clear why the starting line was different.
vs
NYA Martin-Himes-Jackson

12-12-33
Gracie-Barry-Clapper
vs
TOR Cotten-Blair-Sands
* This was the Shore/Bailey game.

12-14-33
Gracie-Barry-Clapper
vs
NYA Martin-Himes-Jackson

12-17-33
* This game saw Clapper move back to defense, replacing the suspended Shore. The starting line for Boston was Beattie-Stewart-Lamb. Harry Oliver probably took Clapper's spot at RW.
vs
NYR Cook-Boucher-Cook

12-19-33
Same lines as last game -- Clapper at D, the Stewart line started. Still not completely clear who is Barry's RW. This was Babe Siebert's first game with the team.
vs
MTM Ward-Smith-Northcott

12-23-33
Same lines. Oliver confirmed as Barry's RW based on a scoring play in which Barry won a faceoff to Clapper, and Oliver ended up scoring from the wing.
vs
CHI March-Romnes-Thompson

12-26-33
Same lines, with the interesting exception that Boston put Barry on the ice with Stewart's line in a last-minute push.
vs
TOR Sands-Thoms-Kilrea

12-29-33
Stewart's line still starting, and the scoring summary indicates that at least Barry and Oliver were still skating together.
vs
MTL Gagnon-Morenz-Joliat

1-2-34
Beattie-Stewart-Lamb started
vs
MTM Northcott-Smith-Ward

1-4-34
Siebert-Barry-Oliver *note that the Bruins were using Siebert as a forward even though their D was weakened
vs
OTT Shannon-Kaminsky-Finnigan

1-6-34
Siebert-Barry-Oliver
vs
MTM Northcott-Smith-Ward

1-9-34
Barry-Beattie-Oliver *Note Barry moved to LW
vs
NYA McVeigh-Himes-Martin

1-12-34
Siebert-Barry-Oliver
vs
CHI Gottselig-Leswick-Couture

1-14-34
Siebert-Barry-Oliver
vs
DET Lewis-Weiland-Aurie

1-16-34
Siebert-Barry-Oliver
vs
MTL Joliat-Lepine-Gagnon

1-18-34
Siebert-Barry-Oliver
vs
TOR Doraty-Blair-Sands

1-21-34
Gross-Barry-Clapper *note both Clapper and Siebert now at forward, Shore still out
vs
McVeigh-Himes-Martin

1-23-34
Gross-Barry-Clapper
vs
DET Lewis-Weiland-Aurie

1-28-34
Siebert-Barry-Oliver *Eddie Shore returns to lineup
vs
NYR Cook-Boucher-Cook

1-30-34
Siebert-Barry-Clapper
vs
NYR Cook-Boucher-Cook

2-1-34
Galbraith-Barry-Clapper
vs
DET Lewis-Weiland-Aurie

2-4-34
Galbraith-Barry-Clapper
vs
CHI March-Romnes-Thompson

2-6-34
Siebert-Barry-Clapper
vs
NYA McVeigh-Himes-Martin

2-10-34
Siebert-Barry-Clapper
vs
MTM Northcott-Haynes-Ward

2-13-34
Siebert-Barry-Clapper
vs
NYR Cook-Boucher-Cook

2-15-34
Siebert-Barry-Clapper
vs
MTM Northcott-Haynes-Ward

2-17-34
Oliver-O'Neill-Hartnott *The summary doesn't explain Ross' choice of this unusual starting line. Harnott played only 6 games and never scored a point in the NHL. Also, Shore was lost to a leg injury a couple of minutes into the game so who knows what adjustments were made after the puck was dropped.
vs
TML Doraty-Blair-Cotton

2-20-34
Siebert-Barry-Clapper
vs
DET Lewis-Weiland-Aurie

2-22-34
Siebert-Barry-Clapper
vs
OTT Shannon-Kaminsky-Finnigan

2-24-34
?

2-27-34
Siebert-Barry-Clapper
vs
CHI Thompson-Romnes-March

3-1-34
Siebert-Barry-Clapper
vs
MTL Joliat-Morenz-Larochelle

3-3-34
Siebert-Barry-Clapper
vs
MTL Joliat-Morenz-Larochelle

3-6-34
Galbraith-Barry-Clapper
vs
TML Shill-Primeau-Conacher

3-13-34
Siebert-Barry-Clapper
vs
OTT Shannon-Kaminsky-Finnigan

3-15-34
Siebert-Barry-Clapper
vs
NYR Cook-Boucher-Cook

3-18-34
Siebert-Barry-Clapper
vs
NYA McVeigh-Chapman-Himes

So, here is the breakdown of Barry's positional assignments:

Definitely at center - 39
Definitely at left wing - 1
Unknown, but no reason to suspect a change from center - 2
Unknown, due to line not starting during Shore's absence, but likely at center - 5
Game not reported - 1