HOH Top Forwards - Determining positions. Updated Wingers list Post 276

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Any issues with the following? Doug Mohns is the only potential issue I see while skimming this.

Updated List for the Wingers Project

Consider him a winger

• Dave Andreychuk - LW/C - prime as LW
• George Armstrong - played RW on the dynasty team, RW on Punch Imlach's "All-Maple Leaf Team"
• Doug Bentley, LW/C - primarily a LW (see posts 9 and 10)
• Rusty Crawford - LW/C - mostly a LW
• Vincent Damphousse - C/LW - consider him a LW (see posts 15, 216, 217)
• Pavol Demitra
• Patrick Elias - LW/C - mostly a LW
• Anatoli Firsov - LW/C - only played C at the very end of his career. Call him a LW
• Syd Howe - LW/C/D - seems to have played a little more LW than C (see posts 105, 107, 245, 246)
• Trevor Linden - RW/C - call him RW (see posts 2 and 29)
• Ed Litzenberger - RW/C - mostly a RW (see posts 109 and 122)
• Don Marcotte - F - LW by default unless there was someone specific to check
• Reg Noble - LW/D/C - spent a large part of his career on D, but when he was forward, he was usually a LW (see posts 31, 50)
• Eddie Oatman - RW/D - mostly a RW
• Lynn Patrick - LW/C - most AS recognition at LW. Call him a LW
• Didier Pitre - RW/D - Mostly a RW
• Bob Pulford - LW/C - 2/3 of his career seems to have been at LW. Call him a LW. (See posts 36, 47, 214)
• Keith Tkachuk - LW/C - prime as a LW
• Vladimir Vikulov - RW/C - mostly RW
• Jack Walker - F - a rover first, a winger second. Almost always played wing when he was moved up front, so call him a wing (See posts 212, 218, 227)
  

Not a winger

• Jack Adams - C/LW - mostly a C
• Sid Abel - C/LW - 3 of 4 All Star nods at C, more time at C than LW, he's a C more than a LW
• Red Berenson - C/LW - majority of best years at C
• Rod Brind'amour - C/LW - mostly a C
• Neil Colville - C/D - seems the majority of his prime was at C and we didn't include him as a D anyway
• Alex Delvecchio C/LW - played C for the majority of his career - played LW when Norm Ullman was moved to the top line (see posts 14 and 34)
• Sergei Fedorov
• Frank Foyston, F - played more C than any other position (see posts 212, 218)
• Mickey MacKay - C/rover - He can be included as a C, unless we do a separate category for rovers
• Fleming MacKell - C/LW - mostly a C
• John Madden - C/LW - mostly a C
• Joe Malone - C/LW - played C, except when he briefly played with Newsy Lalonde (see post 271)
• Alexander Maltsev - C/RW - call him a C (see posts 52, 55, 56)
• Patrik Marleau - C/LW - played C normally, moved to LW to accommodate Thornton
• Jack Marshall - F/D - primarily a forward. Played mainly C in Cup challenges (See post 212, 257, 260)
• Don McKenney - C/LW - C (see posts 18 and 20)
• Mark Messier - C/LW - definitely primarily a C
• Doug Mohns - D/LW - Played D much more often than LW (see posts 277, 280)
• Bernie Morris - C/RW - split pretty evenly but his best playoff series was at C(see post 212, 256)
• Kirk Muller - C/LW - consider him a C (see posts 15, 216, 217)
• Vaclav Nedomansky - C/RW - likely played mostly C for his adult career (see posts 35, 39, 53, 54, 215, 219, 242, 243, 248, 249)
• Frank Nighbor - C/LW - majority of his career and best years at C
• Kent Nilsson - C/RW - natural C
• Brian Rolston - F - played all positions, but his best years seemed to be at C. (post 210)
• Blair Russel - C/RW - nature C who would move to RW when Russel Bowie played C. Call him a C (post 211)
• Tod Sloan - C/RW - best years at C
• Clint Smith - C/LW - most AS recogntion at C. Call him a C
• Hooley Smith - C/RW - all AS nods at C, natural C who moved to RW when the team already had a star C. Call him a C.
• Tommy Smith - C/LW - spent more time at C than LW (see post 59, 271)
• Fred Stanfield - C/LW - mostly a C
• Cyclone Taylor - Rover/C/D - He's a Rover first, but and rover was closest to a modern C. Consider him a C for our purposes (see post 99)
• Phil Watson - C/RW - mostly a C
• Harry Westwick, F - purely a rover, who may have sometimes also played C. Call him a C (see posts 223, 225)
• Henrik Zetterberg - C/LW (see posts 26, 38, 42, 46, 48, 49, 70, 208, 212, 218)

 

[seventieslord]

Yeah, I'm a big Mohns fan but I can't see any justification for calling him a winger just so he has a chance to make a list. He was a defenseman much more often than he was a forward.

 

[Killion]

Yeah, I'm a big Mohns fan but I can't see any justification for calling him a winger just so he has a chance to make a list. He was a defenseman much more often than he was a forward.

Ya very true. Spent the first part of his career (and amateur though in Jr. with Barrie moved to LW) a Defenceman with Boston partnered mostly with Flaman. Then when he went to Chicago moved up to LW as part of the Scooter Line. Utility player really but through the 60's fair amount of LW then by the 70's retiring to the Blue Line again full~time where he was pretty much a stay@home Defenceman and on balance I think thats where he played the majority of his career.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Yeah, I'm a big Mohns fan but I can't see any justification for calling him a winger just so he has a chance to make a list. He was a defenseman much more often than he was a forward.

Though that probably shouldn't be the "be all, end all" if anyone else in a similar boat still managed to do enough during their career(s) as a winger to be considered beside the other "contenders". Not suggesting that's the case with Mohns, but surely an exception or two to the "rule" is going to pop up by the end of the list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yeah, I'm a big Mohns fan but I can't see any justification for calling him a winger just so he has a chance to make a list. He was a defenseman much more often than he was a forward.

This is what we have from the NHL Award and All-Star thread:

1954: Listed as a LW in Calder voting (not conclusive), single vote for AS RW
1956: Listed as LW/D in Lady Byng voting - not helpful
1957: Norris and AS D votes
1958: single Norris vote
1960: Norris votes
1961: NOrris and AS D votes
1962: Norris and AS D votes
1963: NOrris and AS D votes
1964: Norris votes
1965: AS D votes
1966: AS LW votes
1967: AS LW votes
1968: AS LW votes
1970: Norris and AS D votes
1972: AS D votes

Definitely a defenseman for the large majority of his career.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Should Pavol Demitra be eligible as a wing?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Should Pavol Demitra be eligible as a wing?

I do believe so. He played all three forward positions I think. But I believe he was best known as a LW.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Should Pavol Demitra be eligible as a wing?

I don't know but does he really have a chance at making the top 80? In the context of a 30 team ATD he would have to be an above average 2nd line winger.

 

[seventieslord]

I don't know but does he really have a chance at making the top 80? In the context of a 30 team ATD he would have to be an above average 2nd line winger.

I would include him as a winger, and I would also not completely rule out him making some top-80 lists. he was one of the most prolific scoring wingers of the 1998-2004 period.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'll add Demitra to the list of wings, for what it's worth.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I don't know but does he really have a chance at making the top 80? In the context of a 30 team ATD he would have to be an above average 2nd line winger.

Going through the ATD there are some pretty wild choices, in terms of how guys would be valued all time with guys like Tardif and Real "Buddy" Cloutier not even in the top 130 wingers in the list I went through, despite some quite good scoring resumes in the NHL given their ages ect....

Might be partly due to the format of the ATD (needing to take a certain number of players from set time periods) or how guys treat WHA scoring it's hard to tell.

Not sure about where Demitra should rank on the all time list but his NHL scoring resume is quite good and he has a decent international record as well.

 

[seventieslord]

Might be partly due to the format of the ATD (needing to take a certain number of players from set time periods) or how guys treat WHA scoring it's hard to tell.

- in the ATD there is no era quota.

- there's nothing wrong with how most of us in the ATD/MLD treat WHA scoring. A few people overrate it. Those of us who have taken the time to really study the numbers, player by player, understand that WHA points are worth about 0.7 NHL points.

 

[Hardyvan123]

- in the ATD there is no era quota.

Okay maybe it was the next draft after the ATD in which i participated once, was pretty sure each team had to have a guy form 4 or 5 distinct time frames but maybe that was something else.

- there's nothing wrong with how most of us in the ATD/MLD treat WHA scoring. A few people overrate it. Those of us who have taken the time to really study the numbers, player by player, understand that WHA points are worth about 0.7 NHL points.

I try to use the .7 as a rough benchmark as well but it's hard to say for sure.

As for Tardif and Cloutier both guys had some decent success in the NHL, especially Cloutier, aside from injures, and to see guys like Rejean Houle and Don Marcotte (guys from the same era) being taken way earlier just seems a bit strange to me.

Also the gap between Gainey and Craig Ramsey as well but maybe that will come up in the top wingers discussion.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think the admins for the project (I think seventieslord and Hawkey Town 18) should lead the discussion on when the time frame for submitting lists will be, since they are going to be the ones doing all the work. (Sorry if anyone was waiting on me to do that).

The only thing I'd ask is to get a good month of preliminary discussion before the submission period starts.

 

[ted2019]

- in the ATD there is no era quota.

- there's nothing wrong with how most of us in the ATD/MLD treat WHA scoring. A few people overrate it. Those of us who have taken the time to really study the numbers, player by player, understand that WHA points are worth about 0.7 NHL points.

Where did U come up with the 0.7 points number from?

 

[ted2019]

I already have around 100 names written down. Should be fun.

 

[seventieslord]

Where did U come up with the 0.7 points number from?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=75909727&highlight=bernier#post75909727