HOH Top Forwards - Determining positions. Updated Wingers list Post 276

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If we are counting Reg Noble as a forward, LW was definitely his primary forward position. But the split between defense and forward is harder to rule on.

Well, he didn't make the top defenseman list, so we can call him a LW for the purposes of being a forward.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Alexander Maltsev is a tough case. From what I can tell he played center in the Soviet League almost all the time. On the National Team he played a lot of RW, but I'm not sure how much. Can anyone add to this?

 

[Rob Scuderi]

The Red Wings official site lists Nedomansky as a center, not that it's too conclusive. I checked for references in the Complete Handbook of Pro Hockey books I own and only have a bit more to add.

1980: Topped Detroit playoff scorers...in 1978 playoffs as a right winger instead of playing usual center position
1981: Can play both right wing and center

1979, 1982 and 1983 don't have writeups on him. 1979 is the first one I own and they talk about the WHA in it so 75-78 may have info about what position he played there.

edit: just realized all the books have a roster page even if there's no detailed writeup on him. They call him a center every single year though so it seems they weren't too flexible despite noting his play on the wing in a few writeups.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The Red Wings official site lists Nedomansky as a center, not that it's too conclusive. I checked for references in the Complete Handbook of Pro Hockey books I own and only have a bit more to add.

1980: Topped Detroit playoff scorers...in 1978 playoffs as a right winger instead of playing usual center position
1981: Can play both right wing and center

1979, 1982 and 1983 don't have writeups on him. 1979 is the first one I own and they talk about the WHA in it so 75-78 may have info about what position he played there.

edit: just realized all the books have a roster page even if there's no detailed writeup on him. They call him a center every single year though so it seems they weren't too flexible despite noting his play on the wing in a few writeups.

Vaclav Nedomansky RW/C.

For example, in the 1974 WC the all-star forwards were:

LW Alexander Yakushev - C Vaclav Nedomansky - RW Vladimir Martinec

Looks like he was mostly centering Jiri Kochta and Jiri Holik in the tournament http://hokej.snt.cz/ms/ms1974.html.

Actually, I'm beginning to suspect that in the 1970s at least, Nedomansky played mostly at center in the World Championships. In the 1972 WC, it again appears that he was a center (look at the game-by-game rosters http://hokej.sfrp.cz/ms/ms1972.html).

hockeydb calls him a C
hockey reference calls him a RW
wikipedia calls him a C
NY Rangers website calls him a RW
chidlovski says he played RW when he was named AS at the Worlds, which contradicts VMBM's post, but it seems like chidlovski is probably wrong

 

[Sturminator]

Alexander Maltsev is a tough case. From what I can tell he played center in the Soviet League almost all the time. On the National Team he played a lot of RW, but I'm not sure how much. Can anyone add to this?

That is correct to the best of my knowledge. Maltsev was the primary puck-carrier and playmaker for his line wherever he went. In Dynamo, they played him at center, which is what one would expect with a player of his talents, but the national team was running a different kind of system which seemed to largely turn on lateral movement in the neutral zone starting from the right wing. This is likely also the reason why the Soviets in the Tarasov era are known to have preferred left-handed shooters. With a bunch of left-handed RWs like Maltsev, Mikhailov, Vikulov, etc. moving laterally from the right would set them all up to make forward passes on the forehand while cutting across the neutral zone.

At any rate, this was Maltsev's role on the national team. He was essentially still playing a "center" role, but in a different system, and from the right wing. I think he's primarily a center, but he was great playing RW in the Soviet system, so I dunno.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My impression of Maltsev is pretty similar to what you guys are saying. I think that we can call him a center for the purposes of this thing.

 

[Merya]

If I'm not totally demented yet, I think Jere Lehtinen was LW primarily. He played there in TPS in Finland and on the national team before going over the pond.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If I'm not totally demented yet, I think Jere Lehtinen was LW primarily. He played there in TPS in Finland and on the national team before going over the pond.

He was LW next to Modano and Hull during the years Dallas was a contender, but I know he also played RW there sometimes. Still, combined with what you said, I think he should probably be slotted as a LW for this.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

It is my understanding that Tommy Smith played center until he joined the Quebec Bulldogs where he moved to LW because Joe Malone played center. I'm not sure which position he played for his 1 year with the Canadiens, who had Newsey Lalonde, or his half season with the Toronto Shamrocks. Here's the breakdown...

C: 7 years before Quebec
LW: 4 1/2 years with Quebec
Unknown: 1 1/2 years with Montreal and Toronto

Most sources list him as a center, and there are quotes about his outstanding faceoff ability. I'd probably call him a center.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Added Tony Leswick, Alexander Maltsev, Jere Lehtinen, Trevor Linden, and Tommy Smith as settled (at least for now).

Added Vaclav Nedomansky as still in question.

 

[Hardyvan123]

It is my understanding that Tommy Smith played center until he joined the Quebec Bulldogs where he moved to LW because Joe Malone played center. I'm not sure which position he played for his 1 year with the Canadiens, who had Newsey Lalonde, or his half season with the Toronto Shamrocks. Here's the breakdown...

C: 7 years before Quebec
LW: 4 1/2 years with Quebec
Unknown: 1 1/2 years with Montreal and Toronto

Most sources list him as a center, and there are quotes about his outstanding faceoff ability. I'd probably call him a center.

How deep are we going on the centers list?

Or are we making a position list of all possible players?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

How deep are we going on the centers list?

Or are we making a position list of all possible players?

My preference would be top 50 Cs, top 25 LWs, top 25 RWs OR Top 90 forwards all together.

 

[Hardyvan123]

My preference would be top 50 Cs, top 25 LWs, top 25 RWs OR Top 90 forwards all together.

Putting all 90 forwards together would be really hard as it's most likely we would have more than 50 centers on that list given the importance of the position over time.

I agree with your preference with perhaps 60 centers as the list of centers is very long.

 

[pdd]

My preference would be top 50 Cs, top 25 LWs, top 25 RWs OR Top 90 forwards all together.

I favor the "all-forwards" list. Perhaps the two can be combined; classify who is a C/LW/RW, decide what the required list length is for each, and then we build a list of forwards that reaches until we have that many players at that position. Such as, if we use your 50/25/25, we could end up with a top 100 or a top 137 or any other number that's 100+, depending on when the 50th center and 25th on each wing slotted.

More reasonable numbers I think would be 40 centers and 60 wingers (LW and RW combined) because there have been periods in history where one wing or the other has a bunch of really good ones, while the other has few or none. This also matches up with the other lists; 60 defensemen, 60 wingers; 40 goalies, 40 centers.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I agree with 50 or 60 C, and 25 or 30 of each wing. For those that want an all forwards list, why not let us rank them by the 3 individual positions first, then do a forwards list after?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I agree with 50 or 60 C, and 25 or 30 of each wing. For those that want an all forwards list, why not let us rank them by the 3 individual positions first, then do a forwards list after?

I could do 60 C/30 LW/30 RW. I just want to see the number of Cs equal to the number of total wings.

Anyway, if this thread dies out, I'll vote to do all forwards together, but hopefully, we can get somewhere in this thread.

 

[Theokritos]

Added Vaclav Nedomansky as still in question.

I don't know about Slovan Bratislava, but from what I can gather Nedomanský was first and last a Center with the Czechoslovak National Team:

1965 Worlds (7 Games played): 6 as a Center, 1 as a Spare
1966 Worlds (7 Games): 7 Center
1967 Worlds (7 Games): 7 Center
1968 Olympics (7 Games): 7 Center
1969 Worlds (10 Games): 4 Center, 5 Right Wing, 1 Spare
1970 Worlds (10 Games): 8 Center, 2 Right Wing
1971 Worlds (10 Games): 10 Center
1972 Olympics (6 Games): 3 Center, 3 Right Wing
1972 Worlds (9 Games): 9 Center
1973 Worlds (10 Games): 10 Center
1974 World (10 Games): 10 Center

Interestingly he only (but always) switched to RW when playing with Jaroslav Holík.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I REALLY want to see how Red Kelly's time in Toronto compares to other great centre. To be honest, it's true that bulk of our research comes from the ATD, and no one would ever play Red Kelly as a centre. I think he's the only 'generational' talent we don't have a clear view on part of his career, at least in the ATD community. We should definitely make an exception for him.

EDIT: late to the discussion, but it would be very nice to have separate list for each position. Maybe combine them afterwards.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

My preference would be top 50 Cs, top 25 LWs, top 25 RWs OR Top 90 forwards all together.

Why not top 50 centers, top 50 wingers?

 

[nik jr]

I'm leaning towards Zetterberg at LW, myself. For better or worse, that is where his only AS team is, and THN considered him a LW when they ranked the "top left wings of all time" (which I put in quotes because it was really just the LWs that their 1998 panel ranked with a bunch of modern guys thrown in at the end).

For whatever reason, the "hockey establishment" seems to think of him as more of a LW

probably b/c he started his career at LW.

zetterberg played LW early in his career, but played mostly C since the lockout. in '06 and '07 he played both LW and C. mostly LW in '06, but also played C.

in '07 he started at C, then was moved back to LW with datsyuk (probably b/c team's offense was struggling). while they played together in '07, they were the highest scoring players in the NHL until zetterberg got injured (probably a span of about 20 games or so).

in '08, zetterberg played C and datsyuk LW, but sometimes they played separately. in '09 and '10, zetterberg played C, except in a game or two after returning from injury.

in last few seasons, zetterberg has played LW for datsyuk and sometimes C for datsyuk for short stints, but has almost always been C for another line.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

You can separate them by position, but since many played more than 1 position it's an artificial distinction that serves no purpose. You're basically forcing square pegs into round holes for no reason. Comparing all forwards to each other would be an easier task, because there would be more 2 position forwards to compare to each other.

More importantly you are depriving yourselves of the fun and importance of comparing all forwards to each other. I want to see how Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, Beliveau, and Hull compare and I think many others would also.

99% of the time I agree with all the decisions here and in the ATD, but I sincerely hope you guys reconsider this artificial pigeon holing.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I can see seperating wings and centers (different positions), but why left & right wingers? No one seperates left & right Dmen.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I can see seperating wings and centers (different positions), but why left & right wingers? No one seperates left & right Dmen.

I understand - and even agree with your point - but there is enough separation in bookkeeping to make the divide between LW and RW quite simple for evaluating elite wingers, but not the same amount of care has been taken by the league and the media to separate LD and RD to make it a worthwhile approach.


I like the idea of breaking down by positions, then forming a super-list of all positions. A top-however-many until we run out at one position.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I REALLY want to see how Red Kelly's time in Toronto compares to other great centre. To be honest, it's true that bulk of our research comes from the ATD, and no one would ever play Red Kelly as a centre. I think he's the only 'generational' talent we don't have a clear view on part of his career, at least in the ATD community. We should definitely make an exception for him.

EDIT: late to the discussion, but it would be very nice to have separate list for each position. Maybe combine them afterwards.

Kelly was done with the Dmen, which is were his greatness lies.

At center he made the top 10 assists 2 times (2nd,8th) and points once.

If we looked strictly at his time at center would he really even make a top 100 centers list?

 

[pdd]

I can see seperating wings and centers (different positions), but why left & right wingers? No one seperates left & right Dmen.

Mike Modano is a natural center who was drafted as a center, but played RW until around 1993 on the relatively center-deep Minnesota North Stars.

Keith Primeau is a natural center who was drafted as a center, but played primarily left wing until Steve Yzerman's neck injury in 1993. He played center much of the remainder of that season, before moving back to the LW. He shifted between the two for the next two seasons before being traded, and spent the rest of his career almost exclusively at center.

If we were to take the period just from 1990 to 1993, Modano is a RW, and Primeau is a LW. And if we want to go further, Pavel Bure is a LW, and Mats Sundin has spent more time on the wing than at center, although he's been shifted across both wings.

If we want to use 1995-96 exclusively, an argument could be made to classify Mario Lemieux as a LW and Sergei Fedorov as a RW as they each played probably about half and half that year, if not more on the wing.

Dany Heatley has already been addressed, of course. He's played quite a bit of both sides.

Sid Abel, Alex Delvecchio, and Mark Messier were all postseason all-stars at both C and LW.