HOH Top Forwards - Determining positions. Updated Wingers list Post 276

[pdd]

Yeah, Linden is kind of a tough one isn't he? Based on what you said, I'm inclined to put him at RW. We have too many Cs as it is. I doubt he makes the list either way, but I'm trying to include any player that anyone might possibly include.

Linden was drafted as a RW, and started off there, but was converted to C by the Canucks in his first few seasons because they had no center depth. That said, he played most of his career as a center and was an excellent faceoff man, even used as a faceoff specialist later in his career.

Hmm, I'll bold Damphoussue then. Muller played mostly C in NJ, from what I remember, but I was pretty young then.

The modern All-Star voters aren't exactly always right - I think Zetterberg mostly played C when he was voted 2nd Team AS LW, and I know Kovalchuk played RW last year, but the PHWA decided he would only be eligible for votes at LW to prevent vote splitting.

Zetterberg played mostly center in 2007-08, and the year before. IMHO Zetterberg should have been the 1st team C in 2008 and Datsyuk the 2nd team LW, because they played the majority of the season together (and the playoffs mostly apart) and Z was at center 60-70% of the time if not more. They also used that setup to start this year, the line being Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Brunner. It lasted all of maybe three games.

I have Zetterberg currently listed on my "LW" list because he's played more LW than C, but realistically it's almost 50-50 and he can go on either list. Guys like Z, Messier, Delvecchio, Abel, etc. are great examples of why splitting forward positions on a list isn't a great idea (IMO, the postseason all-stars should just be F-F-F also). Another example is James Neal; he was almost named to the all-star team at both wings.

I say keep them on one list; That way we can have arguments about why Howe is better than Gretzky.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm leaning towards Zetterberg at LW, myself. For better or worse, that is where his only AS team is, and THN considered him a LW when they ranked the "top left wings of all time" (which I put in quotes because it was really just the LWs that their 1998 panel ranked with a bunch of modern guys thrown in at the end).

For whatever reason, the "hockey establishment" seems to think of him as more of a LW

 

[pdd]

I would REALLY like to do all 3 forward positions separately, with the centers list being larger than the LW/RW lists. I think this thread is absolutely necessary if we want that to happen. Get everyone to agree on a position for each player, and then treat him as if he played his entire career at that position. I really didn't like how in the Defenseman Project it was just left for everyone to decide individually on how they treated players. You want everyone to be on the same page for the list to be as accurate as possible.

I am happy to help determine a position for the bolded players in the OP. I will start with Henrik Zetterberg

Zetterberg has played about 50-50, maybe slightly more LW. But given that he hasn't played LW in any significant amount since 2006-07, and it's not expected that he will going forward, he should probably be included as a center (and listed within 5 spots of Datsyuk on said list).

 

[Hardyvan123]

So do you agree with Vadim that Linden was more RW than C?

Yes most people in Vancouver would view him that way.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I absolutely want to do separate lists for LW, C, RW, but I would be all for doing a Forwards list before the "All Players" list.

I agree and if we separate all 3 forward positions then centers should be at something like a 50-30-30 ratio IMO as it will include rovers.

Ideally we would ahve something like 60 C, like Dmen and maybe 40 at each wing, like the Goalie position.

A larger amount would also allow of a more complete list and also a historical one as well, without punishing players from any eras.

A smaller list of all eras being represented historically might make it less accurate.

 

[Michael Farkas]

In my research of Reg Noble through old New York Times game logs, just from my eye (not actually game counting), he spent a lot of time at defense (exclusively?) after he left Toronto...so basically splitting his career in half... heretonothelp.jpg

I don't know how to handle situations like that...not a clue really. I'm curious to see how this discussion evolves.

 

[Hardyvan123]

In my research of Reg Noble through old New York Times game logs, just from my eye (not actually game counting), he spent a lot of time at defense (exclusively?) after he left Toronto...so basically splitting his career in half... heretonothelp.jpg

I don't know how to handle situations like that...not a clue really. I'm curious to see how this discussion evolves.

I don't recall him being mentioned in the top 60 Dman project so to be fair to him, we should determine a forward position of eligibility for him.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Damphousse played a good chunk of his early career and many of his highest scoring seasons as a LW. At least 5-6 seasons.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Alex Delvecchio played some C and some LW in the 50s. How much I don't know. What I am pretty sure of is that he was Gordie Howe's C regularly from about 1960 until Howe retired, and he played C to the end of his career. Even without nailing down the 50s I would lean towards C for Delvecchio on time served.

On the other hand, if you want to complicate things you could argue that Howe was effectively the centre for his line as the main puck carrier and playing C with him was really like playing wing.

His official profile on the Red Wings site calls him a center who switched to left wing for 1958-59 to play on a top line with Norm Ullman and Gordie Howe.

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=43930

Seems like he was primarily a center, who played left wing for a few years (and played it well) when the Wings wanted to stack their top line. F

I remember someone in an old ATD saying Delvecchio actually didn't spend all that many years at LW.

for the purposes of this thing, I'm comfortable saying that center was Delvecchio's primary position.

 

[VMBM]

Vaclav Nedomansky RW/C.

For example, in the 1974 WC the all-star forwards were:

LW Alexander Yakushev - C Vaclav Nedomansky - RW Vladimir Martinec

Looks like he was mostly centering Jiri Kochta and Jiri Holik in the tournament http://hokej.snt.cz/ms/ms1974.html.

Actually, I'm beginning to suspect that in the 1970s at least, Nedomansky played mostly at center in the World Championships. In the 1972 WC, it again appears that he was a center (look at the game-by-game rosters http://hokej.sfrp.cz/ms/ms1972.html).

 

[BubbaBoot]

I like interchangeable parts. I went out of my way to pick up players that would be comfortable at 2 or 3 positions. It works for emergencies and sometimes for game situations.

The current Bruins have 8 of their starting 12 forwards who were drafted as CTRs and at least 2 on every line except the 4th. Julienl often puts two CTRs out for faceoffs in case one gets tossed, even if he has another winger out there who was drafted as a CTR.
1st line - 2 of the 3 were drafted as CTRs....the RWer hasn't played there since his rookie year I believe.
2nd line - All 3 were drafted as CTRs. The RWer will eventually move to CTR.
3rd line. - The 2 constants were both drafted as CTRs. (It's been an open audition on LW for about 4 years now). They fill in on other lines on emergencies as either wingers or CTRs, although one gets pegged into the CTR slot far more than the other.
4th line - Only one naturally drafted CTR.


Bob Pulford
first 2 years at LW
next 5 years at CTR - 3 all-star games - 2 Cups - 2 of his highest 3 goal scoring marks - 2nd highest pts.
next 9 yrs at LW - 2 all-star games - 2 Cups - his 2 highest assists mark - highest pt total.

I read Punch Imlach followed the Canadiens model and was notorious for mixing lines and positions.


Dany Heatley
Spent at least 2 full years at LW. He had his highest VsX goal scoring numbers in one of those years.


Brian Rolston
Drafted as a CTR. Probably spent equal amounts of time at both LW and CTR. He did have significant time on RW, but not more than the other two positions. He is as close to an full-blown F that you could come to.


Jimmy Roberts
Spent significant time at both RW and DEF, often mixing it not only in a season but in a game.


Reggie Fleming
Is another F/D but I think it's tipped mostly at LW, although I have read some reports of him occasionally playing RW.


Dave Poulin
Drafted as a CTR, but played significant time at LW also....


Tom Lysiak
Drafted as a CTR but also played LW and sometimes RW....I think it's probably something like 25%-65%-10% for him.


Leo Labine
Played mostly on RW but had decent spells on the LW too.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vaclav Nedomansky RW/C.

For example, in the 1974 WC the all-star forwards were:

LW Alexander Yakushev - C Vaclav Nedomansky - RW Vladimir Martinec

Looks like he was mostly centering Jiri Kochta and Jiri Holik in the tournament http://hokej.snt.cz/ms/ms1974.html.

Actually, I'm beginning to suspect that in the 1970s at least, Nedomansky played mostly at center in the World Championships. In the 1972 WC, it again appears that he was a center (look at the game-by-game rosters http://hokej.sfrp.cz/ms/ms1972.html).

Ugh, do you think he played center enough where we might actually list him as a center over right wing? He's a player who definitely has a chance to make it.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I have Zetterberg currently listed on my "LW" list because he's played more LW than C, but realistically it's almost 50-50 and he can go on either list.

eva, you of all people should know that Zetterberg has played C far more than LW during his career. In fact, he hasn't played LW that often since 05-06.

By my count:

3 seasons he played LW
6+ seasons he played C

Here's what I posted on the Detroit forum when somebody recently asked the question:

He's spent more time at center. His first 3 seasons he played mostly wing, but during 06-07 he moved primarily to center.

Even in 07-08 when he played on a line with Datsyuk much of the season, Zetterberg mostly played center and Datsyuk left wing. They'd switch some games so it could get confusing, but as Babcock would say "they can figure it out themselves."

So since 06-07, he's primarily been center.

 

[VMBM]

Ugh, do you think he played center enough where we might actually list him as a center over right wing? He's a player who definitely has a chance to make it.

I tried to find out what position he played in the NHL, and that definitely seems to lean towards RW. Maybe it was only in the 1971-74 World Championships when he played center for whatever reason.

Take your pick

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bob Pulford
first 2 years at LW
next 5 years at CTR - 3 all-star games - 2 Cups - 2 of his highest 3 goal scoring marks - 2nd highest pts.
next 9 yrs at LW - 2 all-star games - 2 Cups - his 2 highest assists mark - highest pt total.

I read Punch Imlach followed the Canadiens model and was notorious for mixing lines and positions.

Wow, I thought Pulford played more C than that. That would make him look like a LW first and foremost. Is this information in your profile?

Dany Heatley
Spent at least 2 full years at LW. He had his highest VsX goal scoring numbers in one of those years.

QPQ made a pretty compelling case to have Heatley as a RW first if we had to pick one.

Brian Rolston
Drafted as a CTR. Probably spent equal amounts of time at both LW and CTR. He did have significant time on RW, but not more than the other two positions. He is as close to an full-blown F that you could come to.

He's a legit all-position guy. Usually played LW for the Devils. Still, I think he was usually C in Boston where he got most of his Selke votes though right? Seems like he was at his best then.

Jimmy Roberts
Spent significant time at both RW and DEF, often mixing it not only in a season but in a game.

In the unlikely event someone includes him, RW is his main forward position.

Reggie Fleming
Is another F/D but I think it's tipped mostly at LW, although I have read some reports of him occasionally playing RW.

I think it was mostly LW too.

Dave Poulin
Drafted as a CTR, but played significant time at LW also....


Tom Lysiak
Drafted as a CTR but also played LW and sometimes RW....I think it's probably something like 25%-65%-10% for him.

I don't think C for those guys is debatable.

Leo Labine
Played mostly on RW but had decent spells on the LW too.

Seems like a RW

 

[overpass]

Dany Heatley has All-Star selections at both wings, but I believe he should be listed as a right-wing, since it seems to be his preferred position.

Heatley played on the left side for at least 80% of his time in Ottawa. He saw a bit of time on the right in 05-06 and a bit more in 06-07, but was a LW for most of those seasons and for almost all of 07-08 and 08-09. He played LW in the playoffs every year as well.

Alfredsson played the right side, so whenever they played on the same line Heatley was the LW.

 

[pdd]

eva, you of all people should know that Zetterberg has played C far more than LW during his career. In fact, he hasn't played LW that often since 05-06.

By my count:

3 seasons he played LW
6+ seasons he played C

Here's what I posted on the Detroit forum when somebody recently asked the question:

Zetterberg played more of 06-07 at LW than Datsyuk; Zetterberg had an injured wrist that caused him to miss games (including the AS game) and have trouble taking faceoffs. He still ended up taking a bunch, but quite a few were shorthanded. Datsyuk didn't play nearly as much PK as Zetterberg; only Draper and Maltby PK'ed more than Z in total, and Maltby only PK'ed more because Z missed 19 games. Zetterberg still finished seventh in Selke voting with nine first-place votes (Brind'Amour only had 16); it's not unrealistic to think he could have been a finalist - or even won - had he played the full season.

 

[pdd]

Ugh, do you think he played center enough where we might actually list him as a center over right wing? He's a player who definitely has a chance to make it.

He played some center and some on each wing when he was with Detroit in the 80s. His best NHL time was spent with McCourt and Foligno, actually, but I wouldn't say he gets listed at LW because most of his career was spent on the RW.

 

[pdd]

His official profile on the Red Wings site calls him a center who switched to left wing for 1958-59 to play on a top line with Norm Ullman and Gordie Howe.

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=43930

Seems like he was primarily a center, who played left wing for a few years (and played it well) when the Wings wanted to stack their top line. F

I remember someone in an old ATD saying Delvecchio actually didn't spend all that many years at LW.

for the purposes of this thing, I'm comfortable saying that center was Delvecchio's primary position.

Delvecchio's as much a center as Messier or Forsberg. He probably played more games at center than most guys being listed at center played, period. By a wide margin, actually.

 

[pdd]

Russ Courtnall, RW/C.

He began his career and played the early part at C, then played quite a bit at RW. I seem to remember him playing some back at C when he was in Vancouver with Bure and Mogilny (that may just be my "they should do/have done this!" kicking in) but is it worth deciding where he belongs?

Other players who probably are worth dicussing:
Syd Howe C/LW/D
Rod Brind'Amour C/LW
Frank Mahovlich LW/C
Brendan Shanahan LW/RW
Glenn Anderson RW/LW
Patrick Marleau C/LW
Brad Richards C/LW

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

I'm leaning towards Zetterberg at LW, myself. For better or worse, that is where his only AS team is, and THN considered him a LW when they ranked the "top left wings of all time" (which I put in quotes because it was really just the LWs that their 1998 panel ranked with a bunch of modern guys thrown in at the end).

For whatever reason, the "hockey establishment" seems to think of him as more of a LW

And he won the Smythe as a checking C (who could also provide first line offense), and has been to the Finals twice in that role. He's also been top 2 in faceoffs taken for the Wings every year since 2006.

 

[BubbaBoot]

Originally Posted by BubbaBoot
Bob Pulford
first 2 years at LW
next 5 years at CTR - 3 all-star games - 2 Cups - 2 of his highest 3 goal scoring marks - 2nd highest pts.
next 9 yrs at LW - 2 all-star games - 2 Cups - his 2 highest assists mark - highest pt total.

I read Punch Imlach followed the Canadiens model and was notorious for mixing lines and positions.

Wow, I thought Pulford played more C than that. That would make him look like a LW first and foremost. Is this information in your profile?

I used the Hockey-Reference player index/season finder while I was compiling VsX numbers for my assassination. It seems to be the most easiest and complete of all the stat sheets to use. As I am not a wiz with Excel, it is a very labourious process.

Pulford may have played more at CTR but because of his versatility could very easily been bounced around a lot. This is not definitive but appears LW was where he spent the bulk of his career, (appx. 2/3's). H-Ref is not infallible but there is no way for sure, outside of spending way to much time in hunting down news reports and box scores of his 16 year career. (Participating in this thread was a diversion for me, but now has turned into an unhealthy obsession...I have only so much time).

Again, Imlach was his coach for a long spell and while he probably had a set starting position, he also was slotted in wherever he was needed as a shadow against the opposition's top forwards.

I don't have this info on the bio but I'll probably add it soon enough....as with all my multi-positional players, I want to feature his versatile aspects. It is a big criteria for my drafting strategy.

Originally Posted by BubbaBoot
Dany Heatley
Spent at least 2 full years at LW. He had his highest VsX goal scoring numbers in one of those years.

QPQ made a pretty compelling case to have Heatley as a RW first if we had to pick one. ]

Like Pulford it appears Heatley spent some time, but not nearly as many years, on the off-wing for a decent stretch and had some excellent years. Much like Delvecchio with Howe and currently Marleau (which according to left-wing.com,is a drafted CTR playing mostly on LW) with Thornton, he was placed there to stack the top line. It's probably appx. 4 yrs at LW with 6+ yrs on the RW. Again, I was using the H-Ref tool when I noticed him not listed on the top RW goal scorers on a year and I checked and found he is listed as a LW for a few of those years.... they were some of his most productive years.

Originally Posted by BubbaBoot

Brian Rolston
Drafted as a CTR. Probably spent equal amounts of time at both LW and CTR. He did have significant time on RW, but not more than the other two positions. He is as close to an full-blown F that you could come to.

He's a legit all-position guy. Usually played LW for the Devils. Still, I think he was usually C in Boston where he got most of his Selke votes though right? Seems like he was at his best then.

He played mostly at CTR with Bruins but had very significant time on the LW and a bit on the right wing. He's listed as a LW and CTR. His very brief second go-around he was exclusively LW on the third line as well as PK duties and PP point.

He had three 30+ goal seasons in a row with the Minnesota Wild where he played mostly CTR.

In one of my bio photos of him you can see him carrying the puck down the right wing in a Bruins uniform and if I'm not mistaken I once saw in the Google photo gallery, a hockey trading card that listed him as RW. He also played the right PP point and that's where I have him on the 1st unit.

Originally Posted by BubbaBoot

Jimmy Roberts
Spent significant time at both RW and DEF, often mixing it not only in a season but in a game.

In the unlikely event someone includes him, RW is his main forward position.

I have him as my 3rd pairing right d-man(#6).

He is listed in Hockey-Reference as D/RW.

He played both DEF and RW for significant stretches, entire seasons even, for both the Canadiens and the Blues. He was known as "the ultimate utility-man' because he was very good at both positions and as was the norm with coaches Toe Blake and Scotty Bowman, he was bounced around and used accordingly for the situation at hand.

I debated long and hard over this one. I needed a quality right-handed #6 and the tipping point was he was also equally as good at the RW as a shadow and a PKer at either position, depending on the situation at hand; emergency or shadowing purposes.

I felt he was the BPA for where I wanted him and for his tool box.

I feel he is a legit D/RW.

Originally Posted by BubbaBoot

Reggie Fleming
Is another F/D but I think it's tipped mostly at LW, although I have read some reports of him occasionally playing RW.

I think it was mostly LW too.

You're right, he is....but in Hockey-Reference he is listed as a D/LW.

For his Chicago days he's listed as W/D. In Boston he's listed as LW.With NYR he's listed as LW, as he was with BUF and PHILLY. His WHA days has no position listed but one would have to assume he was exclusively a LWer.

It's good to know he was a defenseman at one point. He's a left-hand shot and my other spare defenseman, Al Shields, was a right hand shot and I saw no indication that he played anything other than the right side.

Besides Flemings punching/instigating prowess,where he could be slotted into the line-up versus other rough and tumble opponents, him having played the blue line and being used in a pinch there was another reason why I picked him.

Originally Posted by BubbaBoot

Dave Poulin
Drafted as a CTR, but played significant time at LW also....

Tom Lysiak
Drafted as a CTR but also played LW and sometimes RW....I think it's probably something like 25%-65%-10% for him.

I don't think C for those guys is debatable.

You're right. But it's good to know that they can play anywhere on the ice and be comfortable. With Lysiak it was stated that he played the PP as a shooter and passer and also on the point, so there's no question that he has the skill level to play anywhere in the offensive zone.

Both of these guys were good at ES, Lysiak more so, but I wanted Poulin more for his PK and leadership abilities....that I was able to recreate his most productive years with his PHILLY linemates Propp and Kerr is a plus for me because I don;t have to use conjecture in deciding matching qualities with his linemates, it's already a known entity.

Originally Posted by BubbaBoot

Leo Labine
Played mostly on RW but had decent spells on the LW too.

Seems like a RW

True. Besides his fighting/instigating skills, and occasional forays to the LW, I found out that he was also a quality PKer and his most productive goal scoring years were a result of him being on the Bruins PP unit.....it made him even more desirable in my eyes.

________

With my subs, in case of injury or suspension or game misconduct, I have a lot of versatility.
- at LW - Fleming can go up and/or my current bottom line CTR can move over and/or I bring up Shuvalov.
- at CTR - One of my 3 bottom LWers can move over and/or I bring up Shuvalov.
- at RW - Roberts can move up from R DEF and I can slot in Shields. Rolston can be used effectively in a game situation pinch.
- at L DEF - I can slot in Fleming.
- at R DEF - I can slot in Shields.

There is a method to my madness.
_________

Also note:
About Ralph Backstrom.....I read in an old newspaper article / feature just after his junior years, (where he was considered to be one of THE best juniors of the year), in which he pretty much was used at every positon except goal and played big minutes and given a lot of latitude around the ice, (ie...."give Backstrom the puck and let him do his thing" was probably the mantra)....probably a big factor in him becoming a better all-around player.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Henrik Zetterberg's ES Faceoff's/GP During Career

2002-03
Player
1 Sergei Fedorov 14.4
2 Pavel Datsyuk 10.6
3 Kris Draper 8.2
4 Igor Larionov 4.9
5 Henrik Zetterberg 3.7


2003-04
Player
1 Pavel Datsyuk 13.5
2 Kris Draper 11.0
3 Steve Yzerman 10.7
4 Robert Lang 9.4
5 Henrik Zetterberg 8.9

2005-06
Player
1 Kris Draper 10.1
2 Pavel Datsyuk 10.1
3 Robert Lang 9.3
4 Henrik Zetterberg 5.2
5 Steve Yzerman 4.3



2006-07
Player
1 Kris Draper 11.0
2 Henrik Zetterberg 9.5
3 Robert Lang 7.7
4 Pavel Datsyuk 7.0
5 Daniel Cleary 3.7

2007-08
Player
1 Kris Draper 10.6
2 Henrik Zetterberg 10.5
3 Pavel Datsyuk 6.3
4 Valtteri Filppula 6.2
5 Johan Franzen 4.1


2008-09
Player
1 Henrik Zetterberg 11.6
2 Pavel Datsyuk 9.6
3 Kris Draper 9.1
4 Valtteri Filppula 8.4
5 Johan Franzen 2.3

2009-10
Player
1 Henrik Zetterberg 11.5
2 Pavel Datsyuk 10.1
3 Darren Helm 8.9
4 Valtteri Filppula 8.3
5 Kris Draper 3.0


2010-11
Player
1 Valtteri Filppula 11.1
2 Pavel Datsyuk 9.9
3 Henrik Zetterberg 9.6
4 Darren Helm 8.4
5 Justin Abdelkader 5.1


2011-12
Player
1 Pavel Datsyuk 12.6
2 Henrik Zetterberg 10.9
3 Darren Helm 9.0
4 Justin Abdelkader 4.9
5 Valtteri Filppula 3.3

2012-13
Player
1 Henrik Zetterberg 12.5
2 Pavel Datsyuk 12.3
3 Cory Emmerton 8.3
4 Joakim Andersson 7.3
5 Valtteri Filppula 3.2

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Henrik Zetterberg's ES Faceoff's/GP During Career

And those numbers basically stand by what I stated above.

There should be no debate when it comes to Zetterberg's position, as the majority of his career has been player at C. Additionally, almost all of his best seasons have come at C. He has played some LW when on a line with Datsyuk or when battling injury in the years since 05-06, but the majority of his time has been at C.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

If we are counting Reg Noble as a forward, LW was definitely his primary forward position. But the split between defense and forward is harder to rule on.