HOH Top 60 Wingers Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

[seventieslord]

I've received many lists, and this weekend I'll reply to everyone to advise on the receipt of their lists.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Ovi vs Lucic

I have Ovi #2 and in the top ten
They were pretty much in the same range too. Bathgate in the top 20, and the others not, but they were all ranked 18-22.
Cournoyer is too high
LeClaier was 43 for me. 40 doesn't seem unreasonable.
Recchi and Alfie both made my top 60.

Ovi vs Milan Lucic at ES the last four seasons, only a two point advantage to Ovi despite playing more minutes. Where would you rank Lucic?

 

[unknown33]

Is more cherry picking even possible?

 

[Ursaguy]

Well, sure are cherry picking the stats. Ovi led the league in EVEN STRENGTH goals for 3 consecutive seasons just prior to that timespan.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Ovi vs Milan Lucic at ES the last four seasons, only a two point advantage to Ovi despite playing more minutes. Where would you rank Lucic?

Since when did PP points stop counting?

sure AO's best work isn't in his last 4 seasons but still his last 4 seasons have been a hell of alot better than Milan freaking Lucic haven't they?

 

[Captain Bowie]

Dye ahead of Denneny? You may want to take another look at both players.

Perhaps I will in Round 2. Not having any prior knowledge of a lot of these guys before starting this project, all I had to go on was the discussion in this thread, the results of my own uninformed researched and how I viewed and skewed the stats. I hope that does not disqualify me from the next stage.

It's because I think Alfie and Mats showed better longevity, a better allround play, and proved themselves in more environments.

Markus was extremely good at a young age, for example at age 15 when playing with Forsberg but also during age 17-18. Then Forsberg got ahead, which could be seen at age 20 when Forsberg set his still standing point record in the World Juniors.
Markus left Sweden to play in the NHL, while Forsberg stayed in Sweden and led his MoDo to the playoff final, in something that for me still is the most memorable season by a Swedish player in a Swedish league. (MoDo won the first two games of the best-of-five series, one of them by a memorable goal by Forsberg. But the "money rich" Malmo, having stars like Mats Naslund on their team, as expected turned it around and won 3-2. It's after the final loss that Forsberg first breaks his stick, and then gives the classic interview where he wants to punch the referee.)

Forsberg played great for Sweden too, in the World Championship and in the 1994 Olympics. While Markus struggled somewhat in the NHL, Forsberg was an immediate star just like Mats Sundin had been, and both continued to be that during the rest of their careers. A couple of years later, Alfie came around and won the Calder as rookie of the year, and he like Sundin became a captain. Markus had a tougher time, speding parts of his first two seasons in the minors.

It wasn't until age 25 that things in the NHL started to improve for Markus, as Vancouver star Pavel Bure (their top scorer the previous season) was out of play. A couple of seasons later, as Todd Bertuzzi and Brendan Morrison had entered "average prime age", Markus started becoming a star player competing for the scoring title. He peaked somewhat late scoring wise, at age 29, finishing 2nd to Forsberg in the scoring, but then his production started to decrease for each season.

When playing for Sweden, Markus did score but still I - and others too - thought he appeared one-dimensional. He had a great shot, and he could stick handle very well, but it was like we viewers and the commentators thought he wasn't among the biggest stars of the team. He was not as good as Alfie (always reliable, team player, leadership qualities, great defensively), Sundin (THE star along with Forsberg, tremendous leader when Sweden last won the Olympics) or Mats Naslund (great flow, very smart, always reliable).

Maybe it was some sort of "mental" thing. Markus seems like a very deep and humble person. During his last years I think he also several said he felt rather tired of hockey. Perhaps he used to feel a lot of pressure on his shoulders, I have no idea.

Of course Markus was a great player, with a great peak. Very good in different environments. Produced a lot. But there is still the feeling that Mats and Alfie were better overall players and more useful for a team. They were sort of easy to place on just about any line, always being reliable and productive.

You probably could have just posted the bolded and saved both of us a lot of time. I don't really know what comparing Marksu Naslund to Forsberg or Sundin has to do in the top wingers discussion. Or why not hitting his prime until 25 is being held against him, even though he had a fantastic 7-year prime until the age of 32.

I put high priority on guys who were considered the best, or one of the 2 or 3 best at their posiiton. Naslund was clearly the best LW in the game for a significant time, collecting 3 consectutive 1st AS team selections, while winning a Pearson (Lindsay) right in the middle of it. From 99/00-05/06 (Markus' prime) only Shanahan had more points at LW, while only Ovechkin had a higher PPG (only his rookie season fell into this period). He also lead in assists, while only Shanny and Elias had more goals, both of whom played more games in this span.

Neither Mats nor Alfredsson came close to that. And while there is no argument that both were better 2-way players, Alfredsson placed higher than 10th just once in the Selke voting, while Mats never cracked the top 15.

I'm not trying to argue that I'm right on your wrong, but hopefully you can at least understand my rationale for putting Markus Naslund where I did.

 

[unknown33]

From 99/00-05/06 (Markus' prime) only Shanahan had more points at LW, while only Ovechkin had a higher PPG (only his rookie season fell into this period). He also lead in assists, while only Shanny and Elias had more goals, both of whom played more games in this span.

Neither Mats nor Alfredsson came close to that.

Ehm Alfredsson had 461 points in 435 games (1.06 PPG) in exactly that timespan and Naslund had 497 in 476 (1.04 PPG)...

And why do you only compare him to LWs?
BTW Naslund had the most points among left wingers from 99/00 - 05/06.

 

[seventieslord]

Perhaps I will in Round 2. Not having any prior knowledge of a lot of these guys before starting this project, all I had to go on was the discussion in this thread, the results of my own uninformed researched and how I viewed and skewed the stats. I hope that does not disqualify me from the next stage.

surely not!

 

[bigbuffalo313]

Perhaps I will in Round 2. Not having any prior knowledge of a lot of these guys before starting this project, all I had to go on was the discussion in this thread, the results of my own uninformed researched and how I viewed and skewed the stats. I hope that does not disqualify me from the next stage.

Go take a look at the centers list and then take a look at my preliminary round list. You will probably feel much more confident about your list for this project

 

[ted2019]

Go take a look at the centers list and then take a look at my preliminary round list. You will probably feel much more confident about your list for this project

Me too. I changed My opinion and voting during the process as it went along.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Ehm Alfredsson had 461 points in 435 games (1.06 PPG) in exactly that timespan and Naslund had 497 in 476 (1.04 PPG)...

And why do you only compare him to LWs?
BTW Naslund had the most points among left wingers from 99/00 - 05/06.

Alfredsson played RW. Naslund played LW. That's why.

 

[unknown33]

Alfredsson played RW. Naslund played LW. That's why.

So Naslund ranks ahead of Alfredsson because he couldn't come close to the #1 RW Jagr, despite Naslund not coming close to Jagr either.

 

[Captain Bowie]

So Naslund ranks ahead of Alfredsson because he couldn't come close to the #1 RW Jagr, despite Naslund not coming close to Jagr either.

I compared Naslund to LW's because he played LW and Alfie played RW.

And though Jagr was clearly the best RW at the time, in the 3 years Naslund received 1st team AS nods, the RW 1st teamers were Iginla, Bertuzzi and St. Louis.

 

[unknown33]

I compared Naslund to LW's because he played LW and Alfie played RW.

Which makes no sense in a project where RW are compared with LW.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Which makes no sense in a project where RW are compared with LW.

Doesn't mean I can't compare the 2 different positions as such. We debated whether to split them or not. In the end LW or RW alone does not come close to the depth of center, or any other position for that matter, and that they positions were interchangeable and similar enough to consolidate the 2. Does not mean that can't be looked at separately.

Regardless, Naslund was easily one of the 2 or 3 best WINGERS from 2000-2004.

 

[Pominville Knows]

D

Regardless, Naslund was easily one of the 2 or 3 best WINGERS from 2000-2004.

This is the main conclusion we need to be looking at here, not counting the Näslund ranking.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Doesn't mean I can't compare the 2 different positions as such. We debated whether to split them or not. In the end LW or RW alone does not come close to the depth of center, or any other position for that matter, and that they positions were interchangeable and similar enough to consolidate the 2. Does not mean that can't be looked at separately.

Regardless, Naslund was easily one of the 2 or 3 best WINGERS from 2000-2004.

you make some really good points here and I too had problems slotting guys much more so than the centers or Dman list.

there are alot of guys who could be in the bottom 40, ie 41-80 or off the list completely given different factors.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

you make some really good points here and I too had problems slotting guys much more so than the centers or Dman list.

there are alot of guys who could be in the bottom 40, ie 41-80 or off the list completely given different factors.

I agree.

Sent my list in right away, already have a number of regrets. Round 2 should be a real donnybrook.

 

[sr edler]

Sent my list in right away, already have a number of regrets.

Have no regrets, I bet your list is fine, Dennis. One should go on a bit of gut feeling on some players, I think.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I have Ovi #2 and in the top ten
They were pretty much in the same range too. Bathgate in the top 20, and the others not, but they were all ranked 18-22.
Cournoyer is too high
LeClaier was 43 for me. 40 doesn't seem unreasonable.
Recchi and Alfie both made my top 60.

I was taken aback when I saw "Ovy #2," but then I realized you meant among Russians

 

[Hardyvan123]

I was taken aback when I saw "Ovy #2," but then I realized you meant among Russians

Same thing here, AO has had an incredible start to his career and then a bit of a drop off in the last 4 years and while it's not impossible it's looking improbable that he will ever challenge for the #2 spot with recent trending.

 

[MXD]

Handed my list, hopefully not too late. From Gordie Howe to Johnny Gottselig

 

[thom]

Here is iconic Howie Meekers to Wingers of all time-He has played and seen most.1.Gordie Howe.2.Guy Lafleur.3.Bobby Hull.4.Mike Bossy.5.M.Richard.6.Jackson.7.Ted.Lindsay.8.Frank Mahovlich9.Dickie Moore.There is more to stats to game of Hockey you need to understand that-

]

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Here is iconic Howie Meekers to Wingers of all time-He has played and seen most.1.Gordie Howe.2.Guy Lafleur.3.Bobby Hull.4.Mike Bossy.5.M.Richard.6.Jackson.7.Ted.Lindsay.8.Frank Mahovlich9.Dickie Moore.There is more to stats to game of Hockey you need to understand that-

]

If there's a list of the 9 best wingers ever and Jagr isn't on it, it holds zero weight in my opinion.

 

[thom]

Im sorry I typed too fast the article was listed in 1998-Jagr was number 6 at the time-Sorry