HOH Top 60 Wingers Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

plusandminus

Registered User
Mar 7, 2011
1,404
268
List about to be complete... Some questions.

- AO out of the Top-10, and second best russian-born player -- okay with that?
- 4 Russians players in the Top-20. Notably out of the Top-20 are Andy Bathgate, Aurele Joliat and Martin St-Louis.
- Yeah, St-Louis. In that range, with Bathgate and Joliat.
- I can't convinced myself to drop Cournoyer further, but I still feel like 36th is a bit high.
- Bryan Hextall means Bryan Hextall Sr.
- John Leclair 40th?
- In my Top-50, only 6 players had their best years in the Eastern Bloc. Aint that low?
- Ace Bailey : hard to rank, to say the least.
- Mosienko is indeed 40+ spots below Doug Bentley
- I don't care much about Mark Recchi, but he managed to creep in my list.
- I can't say the same for Alfredsson.

John LeClair is too high. He was great when playing with Lindros, otherwise not as great. Why John LeClair?

Alfredsson is top-30 in alltime adjusted career points - with few wingers ahead of him (a quick look says he's top-10) - and is a good two-way player and team player. Captain too. Should be in, shouldn't he? I certainly put him ahead of LeClair.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_adjusted_career.html

6 players from the Eastern block certainly isn't too many, but perhaps not too few (I know to little about pre-1950 hockey). If the top-50 consists of say 25 or so players from 1970 onwards, I think 6 sounds fairly OK. If it consists of 10-15 players players having careers around 1960-1989 or so, it also sound OK to me.

Mark Recchi is 8th alltime in adjusted points, with - I think - only Jagr ahead of him among wingers, so at least he was great offensively.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,516
17,962
Connecticut
List about to be complete... Some questions.

- AO out of the Top-10, and second best russian-born player -- okay with that?
- 4 Russians players in the Top-20. Notably out of the Top-20 are Andy Bathgate, Aurele Joliat and Martin St-Louis.
- Yeah, St-Louis. In that range, with Bathgate and Joliat.
- I can't convinced myself to drop Cournoyer further, but I still feel like 36th is a bit high.
- Bryan Hextall means Bryan Hextall Sr.
- John Leclair 40th?
- In my Top-50, only 6 players had their best years in the Eastern Bloc. Aint that low?
- Ace Bailey : hard to rank, to say the least.
- Mosienko is indeed 40+ spots below Doug Bentley
- I don't care much about Mark Recchi, but he managed to creep in my list.
- I can't say the same for Alfredsson.

I would say Cournoyer is a bit high.

Bathgate not high enough.
 

Hawkey Town 18

Registered User
Jun 29, 2009
8,252
1,646
Chicago, IL
Having difficulty deciding where to slot the elite defensive wingers like Pulford, gainey, provost, Ramsay, lehtinen, etc. Any comments appreciated
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,815
16,549
John LeClair is too high. He was great when playing with Lindros, otherwise not as great. Why John LeClair?

Alfredsson is top-30 in alltime adjusted career points - with few wingers ahead of him (a quick look says he's top-10) - and is a good two-way player and team player. Captain too. Should be in, shouldn't he? I certainly put him ahead of LeClair.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_adjusted_career.html

6 players from the Eastern block certainly isn't too many, but perhaps not too few (I know to little about pre-1950 hockey). If the top-50 consists of say 25 or so players from 1970 onwards, I think 6 sounds fairly OK. If it consists of 10-15 players players having careers around 1960-1989 or so, it also sound OK to me.

Mark Recchi is 8th alltime in adjusted points, with - I think - only Jagr ahead of him among wingers, so at least he was great offensively.

The problem with Recchi is that I never that the impression I was watching anything else than a serviceable 1st liner -- even in his prime.

Amazing totals are the only reason why I ranked him. Couldn't leave him off, but I get a serious Mike Gartner feeling with him.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,815
16,549
Having difficulty deciding where to slot the elite defensive wingers like Pulford, gainey, provost, Ramsay, lehtinen, etc. Any comments appreciated

Pulford isn't in my list... but probably should be.
Gainey, Provost, Ramsay are.
Lehtinen is a head scratcher.
 

Hawkey Town 18

Registered User
Jun 29, 2009
8,252
1,646
Chicago, IL
List about to be complete... Some questions.

- AO out of the Top-10, and second best russian-born player -- okay with that?
- 4 Russians players in the Top-20. Notably out of the Top-20 are Andy Bathgate, Aurele Joliat and Martin St-Louis.
- Yeah, St-Louis. In that range, with Bathgate and Joliat.
- I can't convinced myself to drop Cournoyer further, but I still feel like 36th is a bit high.
- Bryan Hextall means Bryan Hextall Sr.
- John Leclair 40th?
- In my Top-50, only 6 players had their best years in the Eastern Bloc. Aint that low?
- Ace Bailey : hard to rank, to say the least.
- Mosienko is indeed 40+ spots below Doug Bentley
- I don't care much about Mark Recchi, but he managed to creep in my list.
- I can't say the same for Alfredsson.

My thoughts on the above...
Bathgate should be top 20
Keep dropping Cournoyer
Both Recchi and Alfredsson are not only on my list but firmly in the top 60, agree Recchi should be higher
Mosienko is borderline to make my list
Agree on Ace, he's on my list but has been shifted all over the place
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
Having difficulty deciding where to slot the elite defensive wingers like Pulford, gainey, provost, Ramsay, lehtinen, etc. Any comments appreciated

Perhaps the biggest difference between them is their offense? I mean, I guess Gainey has a case for the same reason as Carbonneau - the "best" at one thing.

But do you think there is a GM who would have taken Lehtinen over a more two-way player like Alfredsson or Hossa?
 

Hawkey Town 18

Registered User
Jun 29, 2009
8,252
1,646
Chicago, IL
Perhaps the biggest difference between them is their offense? I mean, I guess Gainey has a case for the same reason as Carbonneau - the "best" at one thing.

But do you think there is a GM who would have taken Lehtinen over a more two-way player like Alfredsson or Hossa?

Yep I definitely have them behind guys like Hossa and Alfie but what about more one dimensional guys like say Ziggy Palffy? Most GMs would take Palffy to start a team but if you're adding a missing piece it could be different.
 

Captain Bowie

Registered User
Jan 18, 2012
27,139
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Submitted at last. Steve Larmer the last happy player.

Haha. Me too. Have half a dozen guys in there at some point or another.

Thought Dye looked like he should be around Denneny or Joliat... or am I misinterpreting his numbers?

I've got Dye one spot ahead of Joliat, and just a few spots behind is Denneny.

...and several Swedes (Alfredsson, Mats Naslund, Hakan Loob, perhaps Markus Naslund, Hedberg...).

I find it a little weird that Mats Naslund is considered a great Swede while Markus has a "perhaps" in front of him. I have several Swedes on my list, Markus being the highest coming in just a couple spots ahead of Alfredsson. Mats was left off.

List about to be complete... Some questions.

- AO out of the Top-10, and second best russian-born player -- okay with that?
- 4 Russians players in the Top-20. Notably out of the Top-20 are Andy Bathgate, Aurele Joliat and Martin St-Louis.
- Yeah, St-Louis. In that range, with Bathgate and Joliat.
- I can't convinced myself to drop Cournoyer further, but I still feel like 36th is a bit high.
- Bryan Hextall means Bryan Hextall Sr.
- John Leclair 40th?
- In my Top-50, only 6 players had their best years in the Eastern Bloc. Aint that low?
- Ace Bailey : hard to rank, to say the least.
- Mosienko is indeed 40+ spots below Doug Bentley
- I don't care much about Mark Recchi, but he managed to creep in my list.
- I can't say the same for Alfredsson.

- I have Ovi and Makarov top 10, but AO falls in 2 spots ahead.
- 4 Russians in the top 2.......3. Bathgate well inside, Marty well outside.
- Bathgate 17 spots ahead of Joliat, whose a few spots ahead of Marty.
- 36th seems very high. I got him in the mid-late 50's.
- John LeClair very close to 40th.
- Makarov, Kharlamov, Firsov, Mikhailov, Martinec, Krutov. That's 6. Yakushev not far behind though.
- Bailey was incredibly hard.
- 41 to be exact.
- I don't care much for Dr. Recchi either, but he did more than just "creep" onto my list.
- They are on the same area on mine.
 

MadArcand

Whaletarded
Dec 19, 2006
5,872
411
Seat of the Empire
I find it a little weird that Mats Naslund is considered a great Swede while Markus has a "perhaps" in front of him. I have several Swedes on my list, Markus being the highest coming in just a couple spots ahead of Alfredsson. Mats was left off.
How on Earth can Markus Naslund be ahead of Alfredsson? His 'higher' peak (extremely debatable) can't come close to outweighing Alfredsson's consistency, defensive ability and leadership (the last two being things that Markus Naslund is the antithesis of).
 

plusandminus

Registered User
Mar 7, 2011
1,404
268
I find it a little weird that Mats Naslund is considered a great Swede while Markus has a "perhaps" in front of him. I have several Swedes on my list, Markus being the highest coming in just a couple spots ahead of Alfredsson. Mats was left off.

It's because I think Alfie and Mats showed better longevity, a better allround play, and proved themselves in more environments.

Markus was extremely good at a young age, for example at age 15 when playing with Forsberg but also during age 17-18. Then Forsberg got ahead, which could be seen at age 20 when Forsberg set his still standing point record in the World Juniors.
Markus left Sweden to play in the NHL, while Forsberg stayed in Sweden and led his MoDo to the playoff final, in something that for me still is the most memorable season by a Swedish player in a Swedish league. (MoDo won the first two games of the best-of-five series, one of them by a memorable goal by Forsberg. But the "money rich" Malmo, having stars like Mats Naslund on their team, as expected turned it around and won 3-2. It's after the final loss that Forsberg first breaks his stick, and then gives the classic interview where he wants to punch the referee.)

Forsberg played great for Sweden too, in the World Championship and in the 1994 Olympics. While Markus struggled somewhat in the NHL, Forsberg was an immediate star just like Mats Sundin had been, and both continued to be that during the rest of their careers. A couple of years later, Alfie came around and won the Calder as rookie of the year, and he like Sundin became a captain. Markus had a tougher time, speding parts of his first two seasons in the minors.

It wasn't until age 25 that things in the NHL started to improve for Markus, as Vancouver star Pavel Bure (their top scorer the previous season) was out of play. A couple of seasons later, as Todd Bertuzzi and Brendan Morrison had entered "average prime age", Markus started becoming a star player competing for the scoring title. He peaked somewhat late scoring wise, at age 29, finishing 2nd to Forsberg in the scoring, but then his production started to decrease for each season.

When playing for Sweden, Markus did score but still I - and others too - thought he appeared one-dimensional. He had a great shot, and he could stick handle very well, but it was like we viewers and the commentators thought he wasn't among the biggest stars of the team. He was not as good as Alfie (always reliable, team player, leadership qualities, great defensively), Sundin (THE star along with Forsberg, tremendous leader when Sweden last won the Olympics) or Mats Naslund (great flow, very smart, always reliable).

Maybe it was some sort of "mental" thing. Markus seems like a very deep and humble person. During his last years I think he also several said he felt rather tired of hockey. Perhaps he used to feel a lot of pressure on his shoulders, I have no idea.

Of course Markus was a great player, with a great peak. Very good in different environments. Produced a lot. But there is still the feeling that Mats and Alfie were better overall players and more useful for a team. They were sort of easy to place on just about any line, always being reliable and productive.
 
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amnesiac

Space Oddity
Jul 10, 2010
13,753
7,593
Montreal
curious if Tony Amonte made anyone's list.... 416 goals in 1174GP mostly in the dead puck era is pretty good. Not much in terms of playoffs numbers, though.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,815
16,549
I would say Cournoyer is a bit high.

Bathgate not high enough.

Bathgate has something of a bad team player stigma. Stint with the Leafs not super convincing. He's just out of my Top20 by the way. Let's just say that its a guy I prefer to under evaluate at this point, rather than the opposite. But seeing him just above Joliat, StLouis and Bentley leaves me wondering. On the other hand, whose place is he taking ? Selanne ? Hull (Brett) ? Kharlamov ?

Haha. Me too. Have half a dozen guys in there at some point or another.



I've got Dye one spot ahead of Joliat, and just a few spots behind is Denneny.



I find it a little weird that Mats Naslund is considered a great Swede while Markus has a "perhaps" in front of him. I have several Swedes on my list, Markus being the highest coming in just a couple spots ahead of Alfredsson. Mats was left off.



- I have Ovi and Makarov top 10, but AO falls in 2 spots ahead.
- 4 Russians in the top 2.......3. Bathgate well inside, Marty well outside.
- Bathgate 17 spots ahead of Joliat, whose a few spots ahead of Marty.
- 36th seems very high. I got him in the mid-late 50's.
- John LeClair very close to 40th.
- Makarov, Kharlamov, Firsov, Mikhailov, Martinec, Krutov. That's 6. Yakushev not far behind though.
- Bailey was incredibly hard.
- 41 to be exact.
- I don't care much for Dr. Recchi either, but he did more than just "creep" onto my list.
- They are on the same area on mine.

Thanks for your observations. Dye above Joliat feels really wrong to me. Kind of polar opposites. Dye, to me, sounds like a guy who is not better than his numbers. I have him in the Robitaille range. Again, I could be wrong there. Let's just say that Joliat and Denneny are closer one to another than Dye is close to Joliat.

Is Dye's sudden dropoff post consolidation, while still not in his 30ies, somehow explained ? That is the thing that makes him suspicious to me

Krutov didn't make my top-50, I think I've been pretty vocal about it. Yakushev did though.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,815
16,549
curious if Tony Amonte made anyone's list.... 416 goals in 1174GP mostly in the dead puck era is pretty good. Not much in terms of playoffs numbers, though.

I must admit I never even remotely thought about Amonte.
 

unknown33

Registered User
Dec 8, 2009
3,942
150
List about to be complete... Some questions.

- AO out of the Top-10, and second best russian-born player -- okay with that?
- 4 Russians players in the Top-20. Notably out of the Top-20 are Andy Bathgate, Aurele Joliat and Martin St-Louis.
- Yeah, St-Louis. In that range, with Bathgate and Joliat.
- I can't convinced myself to drop Cournoyer further, but I still feel like 36th is a bit high.
- Bryan Hextall means Bryan Hextall Sr.
- John Leclair 40th?
- In my Top-50, only 6 players had their best years in the Eastern Bloc. Aint that low?
- Ace Bailey : hard to rank, to say the least.
- Mosienko is indeed 40+ spots below Doug Bentley
- I don't care much about Mark Recchi, but he managed to creep in my list.
- I can't say the same for Alfredsson.

-I wasn't sure about Cournoyer, have him a bit lower
-Not outragous to have LeClair that high when you look at his career on paper
-Neither Bailey nor Mosienko (very close) on mine
-Recchi and Alfredsson should make it both easily. Alfredsson didn't make yours at all? :amazed:



I didn't even consider Amonte either.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,815
16,549
-I wasn't sure about Cournoyer, have him a bit lower
-Not outragous to have LeClair that high when you look at his career on paper
-Neither Bailey nor Mosienko (very close) on mine
-Recchi and Alfredsson should make it both easily. Alfredsson didn't make yours at all? :amazed:



I didn't even consider Amonte either.

Yeah... Just never saw him as that great. Like Recchi with less longevity, better 2-way play.
But considering reactions, I'll reevaluate :)
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
Pulford isn't in my list... but probably should be.
Gainey, Provost, Ramsay are.
Lehtinen is a head scratcher.

My thoughts on the above...
Bathgate should be top 20
Keep dropping Cournoyer
Both Recchi and Alfredsson are not only on my list but firmly in the top 60, agree Recchi should be higher
Mosienko is borderline to make my list
Agree on Ace, he's on my list but has been shifted all over the place

Bathgate was in My top 20
Cournoyer was very difficult for Me also, but He sneaked in the top 40
Alfredsson is higher then Recchi ( who I feel is the Wingers equal of Roenick) Alfredsson is around the 50 mark
Mosienko made My top 80
Ace missed after a lot of moving player around. It was hard to keep Him off.
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
Haha. Me too. Have half a dozen guys in there at some point or another.



I've got Dye one spot ahead of Joliat, and just a few spots behind is Denneny.



I find it a little weird that Mats Naslund is considered a great Swede while Markus has a "perhaps" in front of him. I have several Swedes on my list, Markus being the highest coming in just a couple spots ahead of Alfredsson. Mats was left off.



- I have Ovi and Makarov top 10, but AO falls in 2 spots ahead.
- 4 Russians in the top 2.......3. Bathgate well inside, Marty well outside.
- Bathgate 17 spots ahead of Joliat, whose a few spots ahead of Marty.
- 36th seems very high. I got him in the mid-late 50's.
- John LeClair very close to 40th.
- Makarov, Kharlamov, Firsov, Mikhailov, Martinec, Krutov. That's 6. Yakushev not far behind though.
- Bailey was incredibly hard.
- 41 to be exact.
- I don't care much for Dr. Recchi either, but he did more than just "creep" onto my list.
- They are on the same area on mine.

List about to be complete... Some questions.

- AO out of the Top-10, and second best russian-born player -- okay with that?
- 4 Russians players in the Top-20. Notably out of the Top-20 are Andy Bathgate, Aurele Joliat and Martin St-Louis.
- Yeah, St-Louis. In that range, with Bathgate and Joliat.
- I can't convinced myself to drop Cournoyer further, but I still feel like 36th is a bit high.
- Bryan Hextall means Bryan Hextall Sr.
- John Leclair 40th?
- In my Top-50, only 6 players had their best years in the Eastern Bloc. Aint that low?
- Ace Bailey : hard to rank, to say the least.
- Mosienko is indeed 40+ spots below Doug Bentley
- I don't care much about Mark Recchi, but he managed to creep in my list.
- I can't say the same for Alfredsson.

Ovechkin is behind Makarov, but both are in My top 10:
I also have 4 Russians in My top 20, 3 in My Top 10:
St. Louis was never a consideration for Me, to be in the Top 20.
I had Cournoyer a few spots lower then you did.
Again, Leclair was a few spots down from you.
I had the same number of Eastern Block Players in My Top 50
Agreed about the rest the your statements.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,175
7,315
Regina, SK
The problem with Recchi is that I never that the impression I was watching anything else than a serviceable 1st liner -- even in his prime.

Amazing totals are the only reason why I ranked him. Couldn't leave him off, but I get a serious Mike Gartner feeling with him.

even the three times he was top-5 in points?
 

Ursaguy

Registered User
Apr 16, 2014
69
0
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
List about to be complete... Some questions.

- AO out of the Top-10, and second best russian-born player -- okay with that?
- 4 Russians players in the Top-20. Notably out of the Top-20 are Andy Bathgate, Aurele Joliat and Martin St-Louis.
- Yeah, St-Louis. In that range, with Bathgate and Joliat.
- I can't convinced myself to drop Cournoyer further, but I still feel like 36th is a bit high.
- Bryan Hextall means Bryan Hextall Sr.
- John Leclair 40th?
- In my Top-50, only 6 players had their best years in the Eastern Bloc. Aint that low?
- Ace Bailey : hard to rank, to say the least.
- Mosienko is indeed 40+ spots below Doug Bentley
- I don't care much about Mark Recchi, but he managed to creep in my list.
- I can't say the same for Alfredsson.
I have Ovi #2 and in the top ten
They were pretty much in the same range too. Bathgate in the top 20, and the others not, but they were all ranked 18-22.
Cournoyer is too high
LeClaier was 43 for me. 40 doesn't seem unreasonable.
Recchi and Alfie both made my top 60.
 

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