HOH Top 60 Centers of All Time

[Sentinel]

I was actually going to mention regular season awards. There is no doubt in my mind that in the 90s Crosby wouldn't have won any Harts, except maybe 95 Lindros.

His two gold medals are certainly important, but Fedorov's silver and bronze are also of merit, as well as three WC golds (eighteen years apart).

In the last twenty years Stanley Cups (and even the Olympics) are won by teams with great two-way forwards, not offensive juggernauts. Which is why Fedorov, Kopitar, Toews, and others are more important to their teams' success than Crosby. And this is what hockey is all about.

 

[Beau Knows]

I was actually going to mention regular season awards. There is no doubt in my mind that in the 90s Crosby wouldn't have won any Harts, except maybe 95 Lindros.

His two gold medals are certainly important, but Fedorov's silver and bronze are also of merit, as well as three WC golds (eighteen years apart).

In the last twenty years Stanley Cups (and even the Olympics) are won by teams with great two-way forwards, not offensive juggernauts. Which is why Fedorov, Kopitar, Toews, and others are more important to their teams' success than Crosby. And this is what hockey is all about.

So when the wingers project comes up, if you participate are going to leave 3 time MVP and 0 time Cup winner Ovechkin off of the list in favor of players like 4 time Selke winner and 5 time Cup winner Bob Gainey?

 

[Sentinel]

I'm not very high on Ovechkin. In my list of top Russian players I rank him around 9-10 spot.

 

[Beau Knows]

I'm not very high on Ovechkin. In my list of top Russian players I rank him around 9-10 spot.

Teams win with "great two-way forwards, not offensive juggernauts", so I certainly expect to see Ovechkin very low on your top 60 wingers list, if you do one. Same with other players like Bure who didn't play any defense at all and won 0 Cups.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Perhaps I could give some consideration to Fedorov over Crosby if ONE poster could make the case without crying, 'Canadian bias'...

Actually, no, I couldn't. Wildly overrated as is around here.

 

[tarheelhockey]

This is such a good quote I felt like it had to be shared, and couldn't think of anywhere else to put it:

From the Toronto World, February 13th 1918:

The verdict of the fans who saw last night's game at the Arena... is that Fred Taylor is a good hockey team.

 

[MXD]

Perhaps I could give some consideration to Fedorov over Crosby if ONE poster could make the case without crying, 'Canadian bias'...

Actually, no, I couldn't. Wildly overrated as is around here.

Don't bother, we can't ask you to do something that cannot be done.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i don't even remember what the arguments were about, but it seems like this is the thread to necro to point out that henrik sedin (10-t) outscored steven stamkos (14-t) this season.

 

[Hardyvan123]

i don't even remember what the arguments were about, but it seems like this is the thread to necro to point out that henrik sedin (10-t) outscored steven stamkos (14-t) this season.

but I wonder if Hanks 1 point victory added more to his legacy, and case, than Stamkos season?

Daniel finished 9th in scoring but it didn't add very much to his legacy did it?

But then again that's a whole different question.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

considering he was a late bloomer, i think it has to.

not that henrik now cracks the top 60 or anything; i think he has a long way to go before he can catch lemaire. but two things stand out to me: 1. reports of his demise last season were greatly overstated, and specifically the claims that stamkos would eclipse henrik in an all-time sense in a year seems to have been proven wrong. 2. being that short prime was one of the arguments leveled against him, stretching out his prime with more top ten, or even top 20, scoring seasons validates his status as an all-time guy as opposed a blip guy.

 

[Hardyvan123]

After Crosby's 13-14 campaign, he pushes ahead of Forsberg. I would have him at 18, just behind Henri Richard.

If Crosby has another Art Ross/Hart/Lindsay sweep next year he'll be in some very elite company. And I don't think anyone would be surprised if he sweeps the trophies again next year.

A 3rd Art Ross has him tied with Bobby Hull and Guy Lafleur for 7th all-time.

A 3rd Hart Trophy ties him with Ovi, Lemieux, Clarke, Orr, Shore, and Morenz for 4th all-time.

A 4th Lindsay ties him with Lemieux for 2nd all-time.

His playoff record post-2009 certainly is a stain on his record, but he's quickly becoming one of the greatest regular season performers of all-time.

Even with his weak playoff resume, he still has two gold medals and a Cup.

There is just so much wrong with the statements in bold, one really has to wonder exactly how much better Sid would have to be in the post season to have an average playoff resume then.

It's pretty obvious that Sid was injured in 14, thus the complete outlier is shooting % that year and heck being over a PPG player in the playoffs since 09

Malkin 1.20
Getzlaf 1.18 ( 38 GP)
Crosby 1.17
Giroux 1.07

When only 7 players have scored at a PPG pace or higher over that time period (20 games minimum).

Maybe the narrative doesn't really fit the reality here IMO.

 

[Hardyvan123]

considering he was a late bloomer, i think it has to.

not that henrik now cracks the top 60 or anything; i think he has a long way to go before he can catch lemaire. but two things stand out to me: 1. reports of his demise last season were greatly overstated, and specifically the claims that stamkos would eclipse henrik in an all-time sense in a year seems to have been proven wrong. 2. being that short prime was one of the arguments leveled against him, stretching out his prime with more top ten, or even top 20, scoring seasons validates his status as an all-time guy as opposed a blip guy.

I think Hank added enough on his resume to break into the top 60 now and Stamkos added to his legacy as well, I just wonder how others in the project viewed it?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

to me, he needs a couple more high end finishes (like top 3 in assists or top 10 in points) OR a signature playoff run to catch lemaire.

but i think the likes of lafontaine and roenick and turgeon are in his rearview, if they weren't already.

 

[Hardyvan123]

to me, he needs a couple more high end finishes (like top 3 in assists or top 10 in points) OR a signature playoff run to catch lemaire.

but i think the likes of lafontaine and roenick and turgeon are in his rearview, if they weren't already.

There are some guys in the top 60 who don't have as good a resume as Hank does right now but are in and look suspect in reguards to Hank IMO.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The season isn't over yet.

 

[MXD]

to me, he needs a couple more high end finishes (like top 3 in assists or top 10 in points) OR a signature playoff run to catch lemaire.

but i think the likes of lafontaine and roenick and turgeon are in his rearview, if they weren't already.

I certainly won't argue for the last two -- they were already behind as far as I'm concerned -- but the case for Lafontaine was quite a bit eye-test based.

I don't think I need to say that eyetest isn't exactly Sedin's strong suit.

 

[blogofmike]

There is just so much wrong with the statements in bold, one really has to wonder exactly how much better Sid would have to be in the post season to have an average playoff resume then.

It's pretty obvious that Sid was injured in 14, thus the complete outlier is shooting % that year and heck being over a PPG player in the playoffs since 09

Malkin 1.20
Getzlaf 1.18 ( 38 GP)
Crosby 1.17
Giroux 1.07

When only 7 players have scored at a PPG pace or higher over that time period (20 games minimum).

Maybe the narrative doesn't really fit the reality here IMO.

Was he hurt in 2013 too?

Granted the 3 points in 7 games in 2014 was about what he produced when the Pens won the Cup, but overall it's been weak against anyone who wasn't the Ottawa Senators in the post 2009 career of Sidney Crosby.

He's got a very good chance to improve that record this week against a seemingly shaken Lundqvist, though.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I certainly won't argue for the last two -- they were already behind as far as I'm concerned -- but the case for Lafontaine was quite a bit eye-test based.

I don't think I need to say that eyetest isn't exactly Sedin's strong suit.

see, i don't get that.

in the last week alone, we have this unbelievable pass for henrik's 700th career assist that, by the way, all but eliminated the defending champs from playoff contention--





and this ridiculous shift one and a half minute long even strength shift in edmonton's zone last night that looked like a powerplay (start at 4:47)--





and that shift was actually way more remarkable if you could see it not cut up into three separate plays like that, but there's this earlier version against edmonton--





and he and daniel do that all the time. go to youtube and search "sedin" and "shift" and watch a few of the videos that result and tell me the eye test isn't kind to henrik sedin. he's a magician.

 

[seventieslord]

There are some guys in the top 60 who don't have as good a resume as Hank does right now but are in and look suspect in reguards to Hank IMO.

Yes, older players. We know...

I certainly won't argue for the last two -- they were already behind as far as I'm concerned -- but the case for Lafontaine was quite a bit eye-test based.

I don't think I need to say that eyetest isn't exactly Sedin's strong suit.

I'm the opposite. Lafontaine's resume isn't great once you set aside the eye test and look at what he actually did. Roenick and Turgeon, I'd take their career-long production over Sedin with little hesitation at this point, based on per-game ability, goals vs. assists, and linemate help.

By VsX/adjusted points, this is Sedin's 3rd best season, so it absolutely helps his career case, but if we're looking at 7-year peaks like we tend to do, he's still got a 75 and 72 sitting there in his bottom two seasons. Those would be Turgeon's 10th and 11th best seasons, and Roenick's 7th and 9th. These two players also never played with an equal talent on their wing, and were far better goal scorers. They also have their yearly counting stats hurt by some missed games here and there, which Sedin never had. (that is a plus that he could stay healthy, but if you score the same points in 10% more games, you're not just as good, you're 90% as good but 10% healthier, and there's a difference)

 

[Canadiens1958]

First Pass D-Men

Was he hurt in 2013 too?

Granted the 3 points in 7 games in 2014 was about what he produced when the Pens won the Cup, but overall it's been weak against anyone who wasn't the Ottawa Senators in the post 2009 career of Sidney Crosby.

He's got a very good chance to improve that record this week against a seemingly shaken Lundqvist, though.

Doubtful since free agency or injury/health since the end of the 2014 season caused
Pittsburgh to lose the following good first pass d-men. - Orpik, Niskanen, Maatta, Letang,Ehrhoff for all or significant parts of the season. So Crosby had to comeback deep in the defensive zone to help move the puck instead of getting it at the blueline or in the neutral zone.

Letang and Ehrhoff post concussion may not be as effective in this role.

 

[daver]

There is just so much wrong with the statements in bold, one really has to wonder exactly how much better Sid would have to be in the post season to have an average playoff resume then.

It's pretty obvious that Sid was injured in 14, thus the complete outlier is shooting % that year and heck being over a PPG player in the playoffs since 09

Malkin 1.20
Getzlaf 1.18 ( 38 GP)
Crosby 1.17
Giroux 1.07

When only 7 players have scored at a PPG pace or higher over that time period (20 games minimum).

Maybe the narrative doesn't really fit the reality here IMO.

I would assume all-time rankings are based on overall career resumes. If one wants to focus on specific seasons or periods of one's career, I highly doubt any players would qualify as not as being 'weak' or weaker on a relative basis in comparison to other players' career resumes.

If Crosby's post-2009 playoff is viewed as weak, then his 2007-2009 playoff record could be viewed as being the very best in comparison to other centres in the Top 20. Who else had a Cup, another finals appearance and two Conn Smythe-worthy playoff runs on their resume at 21?

IMO, his playoff resume thru age 27 should measure up fine against his peers. I certainly don't think he should lose any spots in the all-time rankings to a player with an inferior regular season resume due a perceived better playoff resume.

The argument that he has played against weak opponents, which I don't think has much legs to begin with, was maybe due in part to him contributing to his team's high regular season placings. In 2013, he was brilliant throughout the regular season until his injury and their team was rewarded in a playing lower seeds in rd. 1 and 2. After a slow start, OV dragged his team to the playoffs and ended up playing a high seed in the first round. Should Crosby be penalized for contributing to his team's high regular season finish?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Was he hurt in 2013 too?


Granted the 3 points in 7 games in 2014 was about what he produced when the Pens won the Cup, but overall it's been weak against anyone who wasn't the Ottawa Senators in the post 2009 career of Sidney Crosby.

Sorry but a 14-7-8-15 line while playing 23 MPG in the 13 playoffs is actually extremely good in context

He's got a very good chance to improve that record this week against a seemingly shaken Lundqvist, though.

The Pens back end is still in shambles (3 of their top 4 Dmen are out) and the NYR have enough team strength, plus Lundqvist was in full form last game.

 

[WingsFan95]

No way would I put Bobby Clarke ahead of Esposito.

As far as the Crosby talk, I think any argument for him even being Top 20 is going to be subjective.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Sorry but a 14-7-8-15 line while playing 23 MPG in the 13 playoffs is actually extremely good in context

He was good but "extremely good" might be pushing it. His PPG had him behind Krejci and Pavelski, and tied with 2 teammates (Malkin, Letang).

In this discussion where he's being compared pretty closely to Forsberg, I'd call a finish like that just "good".

 

[BenchBrawl]

I now see Sidney Crosby as competing in the 6-10 range.

Joe Thornton should rise, but I don't know how much and in front of who.Do we rank him above Gilmour? Cowley?

Same thing with Malkin.His last few seasons weren't good on a VsX 7 year level because of his injuries, but he's still among the top per-game producers.This playoff run wasn't spectacular but it was good enough.