HOH Top 60 Centers of All Time

Hockey Outsider

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Here's a distribution of the players by year (same disclaimer as before - I've taken the numbers from the first post as is).

 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Here's a distribution of the players by year (same disclaimer as before - I've taken the numbers from the first post as is).


Thanks, HO. Looks pretty good to me. We see an initial bump in the late 1910s/early 1920s, when we are including both centers and rovers as "centers," then a pretty clear statement on the increasing talent pool.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I'll post more of the voting records tomorrow. These things are time-consuming, so don't expect them every day, but I'll post 2 a day when I can. If anyone wants to help out, send me a PM. Right now, it involves a lot of manual data entry from MS Excel into hfboards tables format.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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This project is now finished. To access the threads in the future, you can click on the link in the stickied "History of Hockey Top Players of All-Time Lists" thread.
 

Plural

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Mar 10, 2011
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Thanks for all participants. I feel that I know a ton more after observing. Can't wait for the winger project to take part the first time.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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Jun 29, 2009
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I don't see why Dionne would be rated below Richard. What were the arguments for that?

You can check the discussion threads for specifics but from memory the main arguments for Richard over Dionne were playoffs, defensive play, and ES scoring (Richard didn't get much PP time so his overall scoring totals don't appear impressive but he was one of the best ES scorers of his time)
 

BraveCanadian

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Jun 30, 2010
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Finally looked at this list. Crosby > Fedorov... :shakehead

Fedorov was a marvelous hockey player when he was on, and I am also one of the first to push back against people overrating Crosby.. but at this point I think Crosby is probably into the top 20, warts and all.

IMO, Fedorov has no case against Crosby on an all time basis.

Feds gets a ton of credit for his playoffs and defense already or he wouldn't be in the top 30 with his regular season resume.
 

Hardyvan123

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Jul 4, 2010
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As he should be. He added another 100 point season with dominant Art Ross and Hart wins as well as a Lindsay since the voting took place.

When Sid came up he was the favorite for the Hart and Art Ross trophies (ie if the season had ended then).

No one was more vocal for Feds in the top 60 project and I think he got under rated but he doesn't deserve to be ahead of Sid either, IMO.
 

Beau Knows

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Mar 4, 2013
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When Sid came up he was the favorite for the Hart and Art Ross trophies (ie if the season had ended then).

No one was more vocal for Feds in the top 60 project and I think he got under rated but he doesn't deserve to be ahead of Sid either, IMO.

Yeah, but it's one thing to be the favourite for the awards and another thing to win them. It's especially true with Crosby who has lost numerous awards he was the favourite for to injury in recent seasons. It's certainly better for all-time rankings to finish the season off and have the hardware.

Looking at the list now for example, he is behind Forsberg. At some point you would think the consensus would shift to Crosby being ahead of Forsberg, mainly due to Crosby putting up more strong seasons and winning more awards. Maybe that would have been after this season with Sid winning as many awards this year as Foppa won in his career.
 

jigglysquishy

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After Crosby's 13-14 campaign, he pushes ahead of Forsberg. I would have him at 18, just behind Henri Richard.

If Crosby has another Art Ross/Hart/Lindsay sweep next year he'll be in some very elite company. And I don't think anyone would be surprised if he sweeps the trophies again next year.

A 3rd Art Ross has him tied with Bobby Hull and Guy Lafleur for 7th all-time.

A 3rd Hart Trophy ties him with Ovi, Lemieux, Clarke, Orr, Shore, and Morenz for 4th all-time.

A 4th Lindsay ties him with Lemieux for 2nd all-time.

His playoff record post-2009 certainly is a stain on his record, but he's quickly becoming one of the greatest regular season performers of all-time.

Even with his weak playoff resume, he still has two gold medals and a Cup.
 

Sentinel

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1. I value PO far above the regular season.
2. Crosby's awards only demonstrate how much NHL's talent has dropped. If a player who dominates regular season, consistently flops in playoffs, to me it shows the overall drop in talent. At least Dionne's LAK would lose to teams with other great players. Crosby's Penguins lose to Flyers and NYR with dismal performances from the man himself.
3. Crosby is not the only one overrated here (Mikita is my personal frequent complaint).

To sum up: a player who gives you a better chance to win should be ranked higher. Crosby can keep winning Art Rosses and Harts. Kopitar and Toews will gladly take Stanley Cups over them.

Oh, and -- some Russian bias! Only one center in the top 30 from the country that regularly played even against many people on this list!
 

Bear of Bad News

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Sep 27, 2005
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To sum up: a player who gives you a better chance to win should be ranked higher. Crosby can keep winning Art Rosses and Harts.Kopitar and Toews will gladly take Stanley Cups over them.

The fact that the Kings and Blackhawks have won more than the Penguins does not necessarily mean that Kopitar and Toews give their teams a "better chance to win" than Crosby does.
 

Sentinel

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The fact that the Kings and Blackhawks have won more than the Penguins does not necessarily mean that Kopitar and Toews give their teams a "better chance to win" than Crosby does.

Really? Everything I saw in the past five playoffs indicated that they do. I can probably name five other players who give their teams a better chance to win than Crosby. Including one on his own team.
 

Beau Knows

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Crosby's awards only demonstrate how much NHL's talent has dropped.

Forget the awards then, let's just look at their best 5 offensive seasons compared to league scoring levels.

Federov best offensive seasons:
120 points in 82 games (NHL - 3.24gpg)
107 points in 78 games (NHL - 3.14gpg)
87 points in 73 games (NHL - 3.63gpg)
86 points in 80 games (NHL - 3.48gpg)
79 points in 77 games (NHL - 3.46gpg)
Average 95.8 points in 78 games, NHL - gpg 3.39gpg

Crosby best offensive seasons:
120 points in 79 games (NHL - 2.95gpg)
109 points in 81 games (NHL - 2.84gpg)
104 points in 80 games (NHL - 2.74gpg
103 points in 77 games (NHL - 2.91gpg)
102 points in 81 games (NHL - 3.08gpg)
Average 107.6 points in 79 games, NHL - gpg 2.904gpg

-Despite Federovs best offensive seasons coming in years where the league saw an extra 0.5 goals per game than Crosby's he still gets outscored by Crosby by 12 points per year. Take league scoring levels into account what is Crosby beating him by? 20-30?

And if it is all about winning. Where are Fedorov's gold medals at the Olympics? Crosby has 2 of those already.
 

jigglysquishy

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Jun 20, 2011
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Regina, Saskatchewan
I think the Russian bias has more to do with Russian superstars being concentrated on wing, while Canadian ones are concentrated on centre.

Makarov and Ovechkin will likely end up in the top ten for the wingers project.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I think the Russian bias has more to do with Russian superstars being concentrated on wing, while Canadian ones are concentrated on centre.

Exactly. This has been pointed out multiple times already, but it won't stop the handful of posters from screaming "Canadian bias!" It's not just Russian superstars too - the best Finnish and Czech forwards are wings, as well.
 
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