HOH Top 60 Centers of All Time

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This is the final list of the top centers from all of hockey history, as determined by the History of Hockey community at HFBoards:

Rank	Player	Height	Weight	Born	Died	Career	Nationality
1	Wayne Gretzky	6'0"	185	1961		1978-1999	Canada
2	Mario Lemieux	6'4"	230	1965		1984-2006	Canada
3	Jean Béliveau	6'3"	205	1931	2014	1950-1971	Canada
4	Howie Morenz	5'9"	165	1902	1937	1923-1937	Canada
5	Stan Mikita	5'9"	169	1940		1958-1980	Canada
6	Mark Messier	6'1"	210	1961		1978-2004	Canada
7	Bobby Clarke	5'10"	185	1949		1969-1984	Canada
8	Frank Nighbor	5'9"	160	1893	1966	1912-1930	Canada
9	Phil Esposito	6'1"	205	1942		1963-1981	Canada
10	Joe Sakic	5'11"	195	1969		1988-2009	Canada
11	Bryan Trottier	5'11"	195	1956		1975-1994	Canada
12	Fred "Cyclone" Taylor	5'8"	165	1884	1979	1905-1923	Canada
13	Steve Yzerman	5'11"	185	1965		1983-2006	Canada
14	Édouard "Newsy" Lalonde	5'9"	1680	1887	1970	1904-1927	Canada
15	Syl Apps, Sr.	6'0"	185	1915	1998	1936-1948	Canada
16	Frank Boucher	5'8"	185	1901	1977	1921-1938	Canada
17	Henri Richard	5'7"	160	1936		1955-1974	Canada
18	Milt Schmidt	6'0"	185	1918	2017	1936-1955	Canada
19*	Marcel Dionne	5'9"	190	1951		1971-1989	Canada
20*	Peter Forsberg	6'0"	205	1973		1990-2011	Sweden
21	Ted Kennedy	5'10"	170	1925	2009	1942-1957	Canada
22	Sidney Crosby	5'11"	200	1987		2005-present	Canada
23	Joe Malone	5'10"	150	1890	1969	1910-1924	Canada
24	Max Bentley	5'10"	155	1920	1984	1940-1954	Canada
25	Norm Ullman	5'10"	175	1935		1955-1977	Canada
26	Elmer Lach	5'10"	165	1918	2015	1940-1954	Canada
27	Bill Cowley	5'10"	165	1912	1993	1934-1947	Canada
28	Nels Stewart	6'1"	195	1902	1957	1925-1940	Canada
29	Sergei Fedorov (Fyodorov)	6'2"	207	1969		1986-2009	Russia
30	Sid Abel	5'11"	170	1918	2000	1938-1954	Canada
31	Dave Keon	5'9"	165	1940		1960-1982	Canada
32	Doug Gilmour	5'11"	177	1963		1983-2003	Canada
33	Alexander Maltsev	5'9"	169	1949		1967-1984	Russia
34	Joe Thornton	6'4"	220	1979		1997-present	Canada
35	Ron Francis	6'3"	200	1963		1981-2004	Canada
36	Peter Šťastný	6'1"	200	1956		1975-1995	Slovakia
37	Alex Delvecchio	6'0"	195	1932		1950-1974	Canada
38	Eric Lindros	6'4"	240	1973		1992-2007	Canada
39	Adam Oates	5'11"	190	1962		1985-2004	Canada
40	Evgeni Malkin	6'3"	195	1986		2003-present	Russia
41T	Gilbert Perreault	6'1"	180	1950		1970-1987	Canada
41T	Reginald "Hooley" Smith	5'10"	155	1903	1963	1924-1941	Canada
43	Pavel Datsyuk	5'11"	198	1978		1997-present	Russia
44	Russell Bowie			1880	1956	1896-1908	Canada
45	Jean Ratelle	6'1"	180	1940		1960-1981	Canada
46	Marty Barry	5'11"	175	1969	1969	1927-1940	Canada
47	Mike Modano	6'3"	212	1970		1989-2011	USA
48	Dale Hawerchuk	5'11"	190	1963		1981-1997	Canada
49	Vladimir Petrov	6'0"	187	1947		1965-1983	Russia
50	Denis Savard	5'10"	175	1961		1980-1997	Canada
51	Igor Larionov	5'9"	170	1960		1977-2004	Russia
52	Mickey MacKay	5'9"	162	1894	1940	1914-1930	Canada
53	Frank Federickson	5'11"	180	1895	1979	1913-1931	Canada
54	Mats Sundin	6'5"	231	1971		1989-2009	Sweden
55	Henrik Zetterberg	5'11"	197	1980		2000-present	Sweden
56	Darryl Sittler	6'0"	190	1950		1970-1985	Canada
57	Václav Nedomanský	6'1"	210	1944		1965-1983	Czechia
58	Gordon "Duke" Keats	5'11"	195	1895	1972	1915-1934	Canada
59	Jacques Lemaire	5'10"	180	1945		1967-1979	Canada
60	Neil Colville	5'11"	175	1914	1987	1935-1949	Canada

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

​

Links to all the discussion threads that went into making this list:
Round 2 Voting Results
Round 2, Vote 1 (1-4)
Round 2, Vote 2 (5-8)
Round 2, Vote 3 (9-12)
Round 2, Vote 4 (13-16)
Round 2, Vote 5 (17-20)
Round 2, Vote 6 (21-23)
Round 2, Vote 7 (24-27)
Round 2, Vote 8 (28-31)
Round 2, Vote 9 (32-36)
Round 2, Vote 10 (37-39)
Round 2, Vote 11 (40-44)
Round 2, Vote 12 (45-48)
Round 2, Vote 13 (49-52)
Round 2, Vote 14 (53-57)
Round 2, Vote 15 (58-59)
Round 2, Vote 16 (60th place tiebreak)

Links to the preliminary discussion threads before voters submitted their lists:
Determining Positions - Should he be considered a center?
Rules Discussion Thread
Round 1 Preliminary Discussion Thread

Links that explain the creation of the aggregate list that formed the basis of discussion. This data was released at the end of the project:
Round 1 Voting Results (Aggregate List) data lost
Round 1 Screening Procedure & Rejected Lists
Participant Survey (filled out at the end of the project) data lost

Listed here are the individual voting records of all participants: most data lost
bigbuffalo313
BillyShoe1721
Canadiens1958
DaveG
Dennis Bonvie
Hardyvan123
Hawkey Town 18
intylerwetrust
jigglysquishy
MadArcand
Mike Farkas
MXD
reckoning
Rob Scuderi
seventieslord
Sturminator
tarheelhockey
ted1971
the edler
TheDevilMadeMe
tony D
VanIslander
vecens24

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Listing Stan Mikita as Canadian because that's where he was trained. This is consistent with listing Charlie Gardiner as Canadian in the goalies project - Gardiner was 7 years old when his family moved to Canada, and Mikita was 8 years old when his family did.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm listing Frank Boucher's career as 1921-1938, as I feel that is a more accurate representation of when he was a relevant player than hockey reference's 1921-1944. He retired at the age of 36 in 1938. At the age of 42, as coach of the Rangers, he suited up for 15 games in 1943-44 (scoring 14 points, not bad!) because his club was so devastated by World War 2 that they were desperate for players (indeed, the Rangers tried to suspend operations but the NHL talked them out of it). Still, those 15 war year games were the only games Boucher played after 1938.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Consistent with the Boucher listing, I'm not including Forsberg's 2 game failed comeback in 2010 in his career span.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Career spans after the top 20

This is a rough guide as to how we are representing eras. It includes the entire career span of a player, including non-prime years and years when they were temporarily retired or injured. Exceptions: I end Frank Boucher's span at his first retirement due to the exceptional circumstances of his brief comeback during World War 2 and I exclude Forsberg's failed 2 game comeback in 2010.

pre-1904: none
1904: one
1905-1911: two
1912-1920: three
1921-1922: four
1923: five
1924-1927: four
1928-1930: three
1931-1935: two
1936-1937: four
1938: three
1939-1948: two
1949: one
1950-1958: two
1959-1963: three
1964-1968: four
1969-1970: five
1971: six
1972-1977: five
1978-1980: seven
1981: six
1982: five
1983: six
1984: seven
1984-1987: six
1988-1989: seven
1990-1993: six
1994: seven
1995-1999: six
2000-2004: five
2005-2006: four
2007-2008: two
2009-2010: one
2011-present: none

According to this panel, the number of quality centers in the league increased dramatically shortly after the 1967 expansion. Perhaps we are biased towards players we have seen play? Or perhaps we are taking a less critical view of the higher raw statistics of the post-expansion era than we could be? Or maybe there is a good reason for it - with more teams, were more talented players converted to center from wing?

Comments appreciated - this thread is open

 

[quoipourquoi]

Consistent with the Boucher listing, I'm not including Forsberg's 2 game failed comeback in 2010 in his career span.

Forsberg played 16 games in 2007-08.
Forsberg played 3 games in 2008-09.
Forsberg played 23 games of a 55 game season in 2009-10.
Forsberg played 4 games in the 2010 Olympics.
Forsberg played 2 games 2010-11.


How is that consistent with Boucher retiring for six years and coming back temporarily because of a war? Forsberg never retired and never missed hockey for an entire season between 2006-07 and 2010-11.

You have Al MacInnis listed as playing until 2004 in the defensemen project. Considering he played his last game in 2003 (beginning of 2003-04), while Forsberg played his last game in 2011 (end of 2010-11), you should probably stay consistent to that, because both were cases of injury.

And frankly, if Ed Belfour's 29 games for Leksands counted in the goalie project when you said he retired in 2008 instead of 2007, then I find this slippery slope you are on with knowingly mislabeling career lengths to be a poor choice.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Forsberg played 16 games in 2007-08.
Forsberg played 3 games in 2008-09.
Forsberg played 23 games of a 55 game season in 2009-10.
Forsberg played 4 games in the 2010 Olympics.
Forsberg played 2 games 2010-11.


How is that consistent with Boucher retiring for six years and coming back temporarily because of a war? Forsberg never retired and never missed hockey for an entire season between 2006-07 and 2010-11.

You have Al MacInnis listed as playing until 2004 in the defensemen project. Considering he played his last game in 2003 (beginning of 2003-04), while Forsberg played his last game in 2011 (end of 2010-11), you should probably stay consistent to that, because both were cases of injury.

And frankly, if Ed Belfour's 29 games for Leksands counted in the goalie project when you said he retired in 2008 instead of 2007, then I find this slippery slope you are on with knowingly mislabeling career lengths to be a poor choice.

I suppose the 2010 Olympics are relevant. His time in the Swedish domestic league, probably less relevant than the AHL in the Original 6 era

 

[quoipourquoi]

And good gravy, man, you have Forsberg listed as beginning his career in 1994!

He played his first professional game in 1989-90. He was on his third World Championship in 1994. This would be like saying that Hasek's career began in 1990 instead of 1980. The fact that these non-North American games were the crux of an argument against his perceived lack of longevity makes your decision all the more baffling. Hell, I even said this in Vote 4:

If he makes the chart, is it going to say that he played from 1995-2006 instead of 1989-2011?

I was being sarcastic.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Forsberg is being listed as is consistent with other NHL players who were not stuck behind the iron curtain. That said, he probably should have 2010 because of the Olympics/failed NHL comeback. Really should be listed as "1994-2007, 2010" like FissionFire used to do, but we decided we liked the aesthetics of it better this way.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Forsberg is being listed as is consistent with other NHL players who were not stuck behind the iron curtain. That said, he probably should have 2010 because of the Olympics/failed NHL comeback. Really should be listed as "1994-2007, 2010" like FissionFire used to do, but we decided we liked the aesthetics of it better this way.

And how do you reconcile this with your treatment of Ed Belfour and Al MacInnis in the previous position lists? You're telling us that Leksands counts and Modo doesn't? 3 GP in 2003-04 count but 9 GP and a playoff in 2007-08 don't?

It is not consistent.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

And how do you reconcile this with your treatment of Ed Belfour and Al MacInnis in the previous position lists? You're telling us that Leksands counts and Modo doesn't? 3 GP in 2003-04 count but 9 GP and a playoff in 2007-08 don't?

It is not consistent.

The MacInnis career span was probably copied from hockey reference and the Belfour career span was probably copied from Wikipedia. This is the first time anyone has taken issue with them.

I believe that in the defensemen project, I was listing them by the season of retirement, rather than the calendar year.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Changed Forsberg to 1994-2010.

I'll probably go back and fix Belfour at some point after verifying that it's inconsistent with the rest of that list

 

[quoipourquoi]

So not only is Elitserien out, World Championships no longer just mean less in our projects - now they don't count towards a player's career?

Changed Forsberg to 1994-2010.

I'll probably go back and fix Belfour at some point after verifying that it's inconsistent with the rest of that list

Don't forget Hasek in the Top-40, whose career was labeled as lasting until 2011.

Or Terry Sawchuk, who was labeled as playing until 1970.

Or John Vanbiesbrouck, who was labeled as playing until 2002.

Or Tom Barrasso, who was labeled as playing until 2003.

Or Bobby Orr in the Top-60, who was labeled as playing until 1979.

Or Borje Salming, who was labeled as playing until 1993.

Or Alexei Kasatonov, who was labeled as playing until 1997.

Or Paul Coffey, who was labeled as playing until 2001.

Or Peter Forsberg on FissionFire's 2009 list, who was labeled as 1990-Present.



I understand that the idea behind this is so that it would be more aesthetically pleasing than what FissionFire did, but you're getting a little too subjective. First, you lopped off 15 games from a 50 game season for Boucher. A bit of a strange decision, given that it wasn't much less than what he played in 1937-38 (and how much of that was actually 1938), but he was gone for five years in-between and it was an emergency situation. Fine.

Forsberg played in the NHL in 2006-07, never retired, and you weren't even prepared to give him credit for his NHL regular season or playoff games in 2007-08 until you heard the word "Olympics". What exactly was the motivation behind that decision? Stan Mikita's 17 games in 1979-80 are the magic number, so Forsberg's 16 games in 2007-08 are left out?

For the record, Mikita's last game was November 30th, 1979. And Mario Lemieux's last game was December 16th, 2005. And Trottier played fewer games in the calendar year of 1994 than Forsberg did in 2008.

If not Elitserien, why WHA? If not Forsberg, why Mikita? If not Boucher, why Lemieux? If not Sakic and Richard, why both Mikita and Lemieux? If not Forsberg, why Trottier?

And you don't want to give non-Iron Curtain players credit for European leagues. Fine. The circumstances here were different, considering he played his first game in a senior league two years before he was NHL-eligible, and an NHL team was actively trying to get him to leave his country while he was holding out specifically for the Olympics, but fine. But to not even give him credit for the World Championships he played in the mean time? It's not best-on-best, but it's something.

You originally labeled a player with a 22-season career as a senior (without ever going an entire year without playing somewhere) as having a 13-season career. You couldn't have expected this to go over well when considering the very counterpoint that I made in Vote 4.

It's not a big deal... but it kinda is.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So not only is Elitserien out, World Championships no longer just mean less in our projects - now they don't count towards a player's career?




Don't forget Hasek in the Top-40, whose career was labeled as lasting until 2011.

Or Terry Sawchuk, who was labeled as playing until 1970.

Or John Vanbiesbrouck, who was labeled as playing until 2002.

Or Tom Barrasso, who was labeled as playing until 2003.

Or Bobby Orr in the Top-60, who was labeled as playing until 1979.

Or Borje Salming, who was labeled as playing until 1993.

Or Alexei Kasatonov, who was labeled as playing until 1997.

Or Paul Coffey, who was labeled as playing until 2001.

Or Peter Forsberg on FissionFire's 2009 list, who was labeled as 1990-Present.



I understand that the idea behind this is so that it would be more aesthetically pleasing than what FissionFire did, but you're getting a little too subjective. First, you lopped off 15 games from a 50 game season for Boucher. A bit of a strange decision, given that it wasn't much less than what he played in 1937-38 (and how much of that was actually 1938), but he was gone for five years in-between and it was an emergency situation. Fine.

Forsberg played in the NHL in 2006-07, never retired, and you weren't even prepared to give him credit for his NHL regular season or playoff games in 2007-08 until you heard the word "Olympics". What exactly was the motivation behind that decision? Stan Mikita's 17 games in 1979-80 are the magic number, so Forsberg's 16 games in 2007-08 are left out?

For the record, Mikita's last game was November 30th, 1979. And Mario Lemieux's last game was December 16th, 2005. And Trottier played fewer games in the calendar year of 1994 than Forsberg did in 2008.

If not Elitserien, why WHA? If not Forsberg, why Mikita? If not Boucher, why Lemieux? If not Sakic and Richard, why both Mikita and Lemieux? If not Forsberg, why Trottier?

And you don't want to give non-Iron Curtain players credit for European leagues. Fine. The circumstances here were different, considering he played his first game in a senior league two years before he was NHL-eligible, and an NHL team was actively trying to get him to leave his country while he was holding out specifically for the Olympics, but fine. But to not even give him credit for the World Championships he played in the mean time? It's not best-on-best, but it's something.

You originally labeled a player with a 22-season career as a senior (without ever going an entire year without playing somewhere) as having a 13-season career. You couldn't have expected this to go over well when considering the very counterpoint that I made in Vote 4.

It's not a big deal... but it kinda is.

Well, if you went through the "career span" listings from earlier projects with a fine tooth comb, I'm sure you noticed that Lundqvist and Lidstrom had their SEL years treated the same as I am treating Forsberg's. Any particular reason you have yet to mention that fact?

Anyway, if I wasn't clear before, I copied the career spans for the defenseman and goalies lists from other sources (FissionFire's top 100 list when applicable, hockey reference, or wikipedia). Most sources list a player's full final season, not the calendar year he retired. So if he retired in the first half of the year, that would explain most of the discrepancies you listed. The centers project is the first time I've actually tried to pay attention to accuracy there.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Well, if you went through the "career span" listings from earlier projects with a fine tooth comb, I'm sure you noticed that Lundqvist and Lidstrom had their SEL years treated the same as I am treating Forsberg's. Any particular reason you have yet to mention that fact?

I conceded the point about Modo once you said you would fix Belfour:

And you don't want to give non-Iron Curtain players credit for European leagues. Fine. The circumstances here were different, considering he played his first game in a senior league two years before he was NHL-eligible, and an NHL team was actively trying to get him to leave his country while he was holding out specifically for the Olympics, but fine.

Lundqvist and Lidstrom were already NHL-eligible 18-year-olds when they played their first senior league game in Sweden. It's not nearly as analogous as you're saying (hence why I drew the parallel to Hasek, who received credit in his career listing for games as a non-NHL-eligible teenager) - but you already stated that the error was including Belfour's year in a second-tier Swedish league because you said no Swedish league games should have been included in the first place.

After that, I basically just rattled off every other name that fit that same scenario of post-NHL play in other leagues or minimal play in their final years that would also need to be fixed because they are no longer compatible with the new rule.

Anyway, if I wasn't clear before, I copied the career spans for the defenseman and goalies lists from other sources (FissionFire's top 100 list when applicable, hockey reference, or wikipedia). Most sources list a player's full final season, not the calendar year he retired. So if he retired in the first half of the year, that would explain most of the discrepancies you listed. The centers project is the first time I've actually tried to pay attention to accuracy there.

Okay, I accept that. Let's only look at this project.

Lemieux and Mikita are easy mistakes to make, so perhaps they were just errors, but you still haven't given a consistent reason for originally not wanting to include Forsberg's 2007-08 (which you now include - only because of the 2010 Olympics). I think it's a good idea to figure out why that was, should the circumstances arise in a future player. Again, he played more in 2008 than Trottier did in 1994 and he hadn't missed a season in-between like Boucher did. What was the motivation behind the original decision?

Here's what I gather thus far: Junior games don't count. Professional games in non-NHL leagues don't count at the end of the career. Professional games in non-NHL leagues don't count at the beginning of the career unless it is an Iron Curtain situation - at which point all of them count, even pre-18. World Championships don't count. Olympics, WHA, NHA, IHPL, and PCHA count. Federal Amateur Hockey League counts. Canadian American Hockey League does not count.

NHL counts sometimes:

Frank Boucher's 18 games in 1937-38 count.
Frank Boucher's 15 games in 1943-44 don't count.

Stan Mikita's 17 games in 1979-80 count.
Bryan Trottier's 11 games in the calendar year of 1994 count.
Peter Forsberg's 16 games in the calendar year of 2008 wouldn't have counted.

Stan Mikita's 17 games in the beginning of 1979-80 count for 1980.
Mario Lemieux's 26 games in the beginning of 2005-06 count for 2006.
Joe Sakic's 15 games in the beginning of 2008-09 only count for 2008.
Henri Richard's 16 games in the beginning of 1974-75 only count for 1974.

Newsy Lalonde's single game in 1926-27 counts for 1927.
Peter Forsberg's two games in 2011 don't count.


It just seems like the overkill applied to Frank Boucher and Peter Forsberg in the last two rounds was not applied evenly. And in the case of Forsberg - with all of this being a major issue in the discussion part of the project - saying that it was "consistent" or what FissionFire would have listed is certainly not going to diffuse the situation, because neither are really true. I just want less subjectivity in assessing career lengths so I can be less of an *** about something that comes across as an unnecessary slight.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Does anyone else have any suggestions on how best to define career span?

If not, I'm going to go back to copying it from hockey reference (for NHL players) and wikipedia (for others).

 

[seventieslord]

I would decide what leagues count (everything but junior, perhaps?) And base their first and last year on that, ignoring breaks. Keep it simple.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I would decide what leagues count (everything but junior, perhaps?) And base their first and last year on that, ignoring breaks. Keep it simple.

"everything but junior" would still include AHL, right? It would also include Tier 1 European leagues that allowed 16 year old's to play in them, I imagine.

 

[seventieslord]

"everything but junior" would still include AHL, right? It would also include Tier 1 European leagues that allowed 16 year old's to play in them, I imagine.

Yes. I'd say if that's the system, stick to it.

 

[steve141]

I'd include all professional leagues and senior international competitions. We might not give the same weight to WHA and SEL games as to NHL games, but we don't need to pretend that they don't exist.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

A tiebreaker would have been nice.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

A tiebreaker would have been nice.

Feel free to participate in the rules discussion thread.

 

[DanishPastry]

It is interesting looking at the weight and height figures that apart from Lemieux and Beliveau everybody else on the list are about average height and no heavy weights.
So much for 'You need a big physical 1st line center to win the Cup'

 

[Plural]

It is interesting looking at the weight and height figures that apart from Lemieux and Beliveau everybody else on the list are about average height and no heavy weights.
So much for 'You need a big physical 1st line center to win the Cup'

I'm not sure about the older guys, like Morenz. The average height and weight at that time was largely different from today. Guy like Beliveau would have been a ridiculous monster back in 30's.

But yeah, skill is more important than size.

 

[Sturminator]

It is interesting looking at the weight and height figures that apart from Lemieux and Beliveau everybody else on the list are about average height and no heavy weights.
So much for 'You need a big physical 1st line center to win the Cup'

Among the old-timers already on the list above, both Schmidt and Apps were quite big and strong for their era.