How is Ralph leagues ahead of Cassels or ronning?
Someone had to be the 8th or 9th best player in a 6 team Canadian only league right?
What is 8th or 9th of around 20 guys?
Sounds like an average guy to me.
Seriously he has a 7th and 9th place finish in a 6 team league and that's about it? Does he ever reach in the top 20 in scoring in a 6 game league?
Look I'm a huge career guy but Ralph isn't even close to cutting the mustard here.
None of the 3 guys have any merit in a top 80 list IMO.
Thank goodness TDMM dismissed this already; it would have taken me about 100 times as many words.
Does this really apply? I asked in the top 60 defenseman project on how a guy like Vasilev would have ranked in the NHL, even in ball park terms and the response was pretty much zip.
The how any player ranked in the world concept is usually only applied when the NHL is integrated, guys in pre integration are often assumed to have equal greatness in Russia and the NHL, for the 70's guys for instance.
I don’t recall this, but if you say so. I think the typical line of thinking is that if their team of very best players was about as good as our team of very best players, then the very best players on that team had to be somewhat close to ours.
Who cares though? Determining where a player ranked in the world at any given time should always be the goal. Your approach is backwayds as far as I’m concerned. The global approach means that from 1927-1963 or so, and from 1993 and on, a ranking within the NHL is the same as a global ranking. In between, small adjustments (larger the further down you go) need to be made due to elite players outside the NHL. Your “Canadian only†approach attempts to come to the same logical conclusions but outright ignores dozens of actual players whose results have to be part of the analysis.
Once again it takes more than being just any player to be the 2nd best scoring Canadian in the NHL over a 15 year period.
It's just one metric sure but guys don't reach that plateau without being extremely good...period. It's not a GP metric but probably the most important metric for a forward (scoring goals)
Except for scoring points, of course.
And you can’t seriously think that “having the 2nd most goals among canadian players over a 15-year period†is the same as “being the best scoring Canadian in the NHL over a 15 year periodâ€, can you?
All better in absolute peaks sure but for their careers?
Yes. Absolutely.
Would you consider putting him ahead of any of them?
Once again outside of the elite of the elite, maybe 10 wingers, the other 70 guys on any winger list aren't historically special either.
Look with different metrics his career doesn't shine as bright as other but there is no denying that he is the 2nd best Canadian goal scoring player during his time in the NHL.
Seriously, he’s been a better goal scorer than Crosby? Staal? Lecavalier? Stamkos? Sakic? Nash? Shanahan?
To be fair to him at least compare that to other "great players" on any wingers list and we aren't talking small sample here it's over a 14 year period.
I think you still haven’t quite grasped exactly how favourable a metric this is when used for ANY player.
Is he going to be a top 10 winger? No, but lots of guys with a much lesser metric (against similar competition) make the grade easily and Marleau is just dismissed?
Me thinks maybe he is getting judged by a different standard here.
No! I’m only saying to judge other players by the exact same standard! Watch what happens when I take some other modern wingers I listed near the bottom:
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Keith Tkachuk, 1993-2008: 9th in points, 23rd in PPG (among the top-100 in points)
Joe Mullen, 1982-1994: 14th, 26th
Alex Mogilny, 1991-2003: 15th, 15th
Peter Bondra, 1992-2004: 25th, 36th
Yvan Cournoyer, 1967-1978: 6th, 19th
Glenn Anderson, 1981-1994: 12th, 38th
Luc Robitaille, 1987-2004: 8th, 26th
Marian Hossa, 2000-2014: 4th, 15th
Daniel Alfredsson, 1996-2014: 4th, 19th
Theoren Fleury, 1990-2002: 9th, 20th
Zigmund Palffy, 1996-2006: 10th, 7th
Markus Naslund, 1996-2009: 9th, 44th
Dany Heatley, 2002-2014: 9th, 17th
Steve Shutt, 1975-1985: 11th, 41st
Daniel Sedin, 2004-2014: 9th, 17th
Ilya Kovalchuk, 2000-2013: 6th, 8th
Paul Kariya, 1995-2008: 5th, 9th
Lanny McDonald, 1975-1986: 8th, 28th
John LeClair, 1993-2006: 14th, 16th
Steve Larmer, 1983-1994: 11th, 31st
Patrik Elias, 1999-2012: 7th, 24th
Mark Recchi, 1990-2009: 3rd, 24th
Brian Propp, *1980-1991: 12th, 28th
Rod Gilbert, 1964-1977: 4th, 11th
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And the compilers that I mentioned would have a hard time getting on my list:
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Dave Andreychuk, 1984-1998: 10th, 37th
Mike Gartner: 1980-1997: 9th, 51st
Dino Ciccarelli: 1982-1997: 10th, 33rd
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Do I really need to get into the top-40? Please tell me I don’t.
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Even a guy like John Tonelli, who no one thinks was anything special offensively, was 20th and 59th from 1979-1990, and he brought so, so, much more to the table overall.
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Patrick Marleau, 2001-2014: 14th, 45th
Or 1998-2014, as you’ve been using: 11th, 59th.
As you shrink the period to attempt to be more advantageous their points ranking will improve and PPG will decline. Pick your poison.
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Anyway, 14th/45th and 11th/59th don’t really compare to anyone on the above lists, except for:
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Bondra (25th, 36th)* and he was EXTREMELY goals heavy and had an obviously higher peak, leading the league twice. He also has historically remarkable penalty killing numbers (goals for generated versus goals allowed)
Naslund (9th, 44th) though Naslund had a remarkable peak that Marleau didn’t approach
Shutt (11th, 41st), though Shutt was an outstanding playoff scorer and HHOFer
Gartner (9th, 51st), though Gartner’s chosen period was 18 seasons long, had I used 81-94, he’d be 35th in PPG while remaining 9th in points, he’s also a model of consistency and quite a goal-heavy player. And like I said, I can’t even guarantee
him a spot in my top-80.
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Can you still see Marleau making it? All I’m asking is that you judge other players by the same standard you judge him by