HOH Top 60 Centers of All-Time: Round 1 Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think this one is my bad... I thought I had emailed you a notification, DB. Sorry about that.

No problem.

Just glad to be (barely) accepted.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

That's good. But by that I mean, I can't imagine including him if we're moving on to listing our top-80 wingers after this.

Yeah, I don't see him as a top 100 winger all time, and that's probably the most you are going to consider when trying to make a top 80 list.

 

[VanIslander]

As I had mentioned initially, I thought we would be doing a Top-60 at LW. I hadn't realized both LW and RW positions were going to be combined. I missed when that had been decided.

Will there be a HOH Top list for coaches?

 

[bigbuffalo313]

As I had mentioned initially, I thought we would be doing a Top-60 at LW. I hadn't realized both LW and RW positions were going to be combined. I missed when that had been decided.

Will there be a HOH Top list for coaches?

I don't think it has been decided for wingers if we end up doing a list for them. And coaching would be cool but my list for them would be brutal

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

As I had mentioned initially, I thought we would be doing a Top-60 at LW. I hadn't realized both LW and RW positions were going to be combined. I missed when that had been decided.

Will there be a HOH Top list for coaches?

After centers, we'll have a vote as to whether to do top 60 wings or top 30 RWs / top 30 LWs.

No idea what projects we'd do after that. Options include top coaches, top non-NHL Europeans, or an update of the Top 100 overall players list.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

After centers, we'll have a vote as to whether to do top 60 wings or top 30 RWs / top 30 LWs.

No idea what projects we'd do after that. Options include top coaches, top non-NHL Europeans, or an update of the Top 100 overall players list.

Would read. That'd pretty much have to include North Americans/etc in the European leagues, too, which makes it doubly interesting because lots of them were obviously at least development level contemporaries on this side of the pond too, of plenty of guys on these other lists.

 

[Syckle78]

After centers, we'll have a vote as to whether to do top 60 wings or top 30 RWs / top 30 LWs.

No idea what projects we'd do after that. Options include top coaches, top non-NHL Europeans, or an update of the Top 100 overall players list.

Would really like to see the top individual seasons done that someone had brought u before. Would be something a little different.

 

[VMBM]

After centers, we'll have a vote as to whether to do top 60 wings or top 30 RWs / top 30 LWs.

No idea what projects we'd do after that. Options include top coaches, top non-NHL Europeans, or an update of the Top 100 overall players list.

One thing about that is: would we take that really literally? i.e. it's only the players with no NHL experience at all who count. Namely, I have to say that it would kind of suck - and often be quite silly - not to have the Green Unit, Novy, Hlinka, Sterner (4 NHL games) etc. included... then again, I guess you'd have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[ted2019]

After centers, we'll have a vote as to whether to do top 60 wings or top 30 RWs / top 30 LWs.

No idea what projects we'd do after that. Options include top coaches, top non-NHL Europeans, or an update of the Top 100 overall players list.

Winger project sounds like fun and then the top 100 overall list.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I also tend to favor complete players, but at a certain point the offense is just too great to overcome. Additionally, lost in this (overthought, or underthought, it matters not) is the usage of possession as a strong form of defense.

Examples: 2012 Devils. Obviously, it's been a long time since the Devils were this 1-2-2 dominated team. Instead, they utilized an aggressive three-man forecheck, proper puck support and cycle game to prevent opponents from gaining meaningful attack time. The opponent spends 45 seconds chasing them around and trying to loosen the puck from the boards that by the time they free it, the shift is over and they have to dump it in. Meanwhile, a properly executed cycle allows for players to filter off on a change "behind" the play ensuring fresh troops can continue possession or re-acquire it. Moral: possession time matters, and can be an effective way of keeping the puck out of your own net...what players were better at keeping the puck than 66 and 99?

While Lemieux wasn't going to get any Selke votes at any point in his career, he was just too dominant to ignore. Similar to the goalie project, I favor technique a lot because proper technique allows for adaptability and sustainability. But I still had Dominik Hasek at #1 because it was just too good to overlook. He didn't do it "right" but he was so amazing at doing it wrong in different circumstances that you can't ignore it. Mario was so good at dominating the play that you can't ignore it.

I just can't envision a reasonable scenario where Gretzky and Lemieux aren't 1-2 in some order, just my thoughts on it.

what you say about possession is true but it doesn't apply to Mario through out his career, people just naturally assume that his offense was always so overwhelming that it didn't matter if he played defense.

But the fact of the matter is that there is a lot of evidence to suggest that Mario often had tons of points for in blowout games and over the course of a season his overall "completeness" wasn't nearly as high as we assume.

I will comment more on it when we get to him but that along with all of that missed time is what caused him to drop on my list to 4th.

 

[Hardyvan123]

That's good. But by that I mean, I can't imagine including him if we're moving on to listing our top-80 wingers after this.

Well for a guy who is a very strong 6th (2nd best among all other Canadain players) in goals against his peers during his long NHL career, it seems he will be the 2000's version of Peter Bondra and some obscure wingers from long gone days will be on that top 80 wingers list eh?

Or maybe another 35-40 goal season will get him some consideration for the bottom end of that list?

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=goals

 

[Hardyvan123]

Would really like to see the top individual seasons done that someone had brought u before. Would be something a little different.

Why not top junior hockey players in the 3 big major leagues in Canada of all time or best US collegians?

Just to be totally different and would be some interesting research and discussions on those topics.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Interesting Suggestion

Why not top junior hockey players in the 3 big major leagues in Canada of all time or best US collegians?

Just to be totally different and would be some interesting research and discussions on those topics.

Interesting suggestion but before 1969-70 there were more than three Memorial Cup eligible junior leagues across Canada, each producing NHL quality players.These were merged, over time, into the three CHL leagues we know today.

Also the collegians suggestions should include Canadian University players as well - Mike Ridley a more recent example, Jack Gelineau from the post WWII era. Also pre WWII there was a University league featuring Canadian - eastern universities like McGill, Varsity, plus some IVY League schools from the USA. Produced viable NHL players.

Could post some links later this week.

 

[VanIslander]

The Top-30 players to never make it to the big leagues (e.g., AHL O6 era, Black and Native early era, European league stars, WHA greats who never played in the NHL, earliest Pittsburgh and Northern Michigan pro leagues when amateurs more respected, etc.). It could be a list of 30 including all positions (as many from each position as warranted, in whatever order warranted). Call it the Top-30 Outsiders.

 

[Canadiens1958]

International College League

Further to the strength and popularity of university or college hockey pre WWII, standings from the February 20th, 1939 Gazette show three very viable leagues with the elite International College League featuring four Canadian teams - McGill, University of Toronto Varsity, Queen's and Université de Montreal plus Dartmouth, Harvard, Princeton, Yale in the USA.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=p30tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fZgFAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=3704,3500777

Solid league, producing a few NHL players - Nelson Crutchfield, Jack McGill and others.

Basic issue was that a university graduate in most cases commanded a greater starting salary than NHL teams were offering.

 

[VanIslander]

... Basic issue was that a university graduate in most cases commanded a greater starting salary than NHL teams were offering.

Oh, how times have changed!

 

[Killion]

^^^ Ya its problematical (and would be time consuming) as you have a lot more than just the 3 major junior leagues as we know them today to be sourcing. Indeed, multiple leagues, various jurisdictions including various American Colleges & Universities, several tiers in each province with some duplication going on. Rather formidable task I should think and thats if the records & anecdotal inf can even be found.

 

[King Forsberg]

I like the idea of top individual seasons of all time. It's something that's gets brought up all the time in various threads. It would be tough to set some guidelines regarding half seasons and injury related problems but it would still be something worth doing.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I kinda thought the idea was to go: defense, goalie, center, wing and that would allow for an easier Top 100 of all-time and then after that it was up in there...not that I'd throw my crayons across the floor one way or the other, but I just thought that was the intent...

 

[seventieslord]

Well for a guy who is a very strong 6th (2nd best among all other Canadain players) in goals against his peers during his long NHL career, it seems he will be the 2000's version of Peter Bondra and some obscure wingers from long gone days will be on that top 80 wingers list eh?

Or maybe another 35-40 goal season will get him some consideration for the bottom end of that list?

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=goals

I can't say I will 100% rule out the possibility. But "6th in goals during his career" is a really weak stat because it is a period of time that included every game he's ever played, while only including the first or second half of the careers of many superior players.

And points matter more than goals.

And we have a pretty clear picture of what kind of a scorer he is when he's not playing with a top-3 playmaker in the league... there are simply a lot more wingers in the history of hockey who have proven to be more able to generate their own offense.

He's also not particularly strong (in an all-time sense anyway) defensively or physically; in a lot of cases players with similar offensive resumes but better intangibles would have to get the nod over him.

heck, I'll give this a shot, here is a preliminary wingers list:

Howe
Hull
Richard
Jagr
Bossy
Lafleur
Cook
Lindsay
Mahovlich
C.Conacher

Makarov
Bathgate
Kharlamov
Selanne
Ovechkin
Geoffrion
Kurri
Hull
Mikhailov
Denneny

Moore
Joliat
Iginla
Blake
Neely
Jackson
Bucyk
Firsov
D.Bentley
Shanahan

S.Howe
Phillips
St.Louis
Bure
Middleton
Goulet
Noble
Hextall
R.Conacher
Barber

Gilbert
Propp
Recchi
Schriner
Elias
Larmer
LeClair
McDonald
Kariya
Kovalchuk

Fleury
Alfredsson
Hossa
Dye
Robitaille
Martinec
Anderson
Cournoyer
Thompson
Pitre

Sedin
Shutt
Dillon
Olmstead
Provost
Markus Naslund
Balderis
Hyland
Palffy
Bondra

Mogilny
Yakushev
Mullen
Tkachuk
Gord Roberts

(this is only meant to be an extremely rough order)

I've gotten to 75, and I don't see how any of them can even really be controversial. Then below you have some guys with similar offensive ability who are intangibles kings, a couple shorter career one dimensional guys who are decidedly better offensively, and some of the best defensive forwards of all-time. I haven't even mentioned the better compilers - Andreychuk, Gartner, Ciccarelli - who would all be in tough to make a top-80.

Armstrong
Tonelli
Prentice
Gillies
Heatley
Bun Cook
Martin
Mosienko
Ramsay
Dumart
Walker
Alf Smith
Gainey
Cleghorn
Lewis
Taylor
Aurie
S.Smith
Broadbent
Pulford
Bailey
Oatman
Lehtinen
Cashman
Krutov
Roberts
Tikkanen
Northcott

nope, I can't see how Marleau should make anyone's list.

I kinda thought the idea was to go: defense, goalie, center, wing and that would allow for an easier Top 100 of all-time and then after that it was up in there...not that I'd throw my crayons across the floor one way or the other, but I just thought that was the intent...

I think that's the logical way to go.

 

[member 51464]

I like the idea of top individual seasons of all time. It's something that's gets brought up all the time in various threads. It would be tough to set some guidelines regarding half seasons and injury related problems but it would still be something worth doing.

Would it be best overall, or best of each player and then all ranked? What I mean is, would the top 10 just be a bunch of Gretzky seasons? Or would it be the best of Greztky's versus the best of Super Mario versus Hull, etc...? I prefer the idea of the latter.

 

[ted2019]

I kinda thought the idea was to go: defense, goalie, center, wing and that would allow for an easier Top 100 of all-time and then after that it was up in there...not that I'd throw my crayons across the floor one way or the other, but I just thought that was the intent...

I would rather see a all time Wingers list.

 

[VanIslander]

I would rather see a all time Wingers list.

A HOH Wingers list is expected, if not a left winger list and then right winger list.

A lot of great role players will fall through the cracks: defensive defensemen and defensive forwards, third liners of renown, but so be it. The HOH Project is what it is: an all-star game-ish list hierarchy, not a reflection on the most influential or impact players in the history of the game. (The ATDs honor third liners and defensive-minded dmen more so, fits the team-first, playoff-oriented play of all-time greats in history hockey.) One project cannot be everything for everybody. There are many kinds of greatness in hockey history, and only some are being honored here.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I would rather see a all time Wingers list.

So would I, that's why I mentioned it...

 

[tarheelhockey]

Just a reminder that the deadline for lists is tomorrow.