HOH Top 60 Centers List & Voting Record - MXD

TheDevilMadeMe · Mar 27, 2014

Round 1 List

Players from our final top 60 not ranked in this top 60
Mickey MacKay at 61
Vaclav Nedomansky at 63
Neil Colville at 64
Henrik Zetterberg at 70
Vladimir Petrov at 72

Players unique to this list
Patrice Bergeron (on 1 other list)

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Max Bentley at 19 - next highest at 20
Peter Stastny at 21 (tied with 1 other)
Henrik Sedin at 53 (tied with 2 others)

Players ranked 2nd highest on this list
Darryl Sittler at 44
Jacques Lemaire at 45
Pat Lafontaine at 50
Neil Colville at 64
Bernie Nicholls at 68
Kirk Muller at 79

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
Eric Lindros at 55 - next lowest at 49

Players ranked 2nd lowest on this list
Vladimir Petrov at 72

Round 2 voting

Highest vote

Round 8: Stastny 2nd
Round 9: Stastny 1st
Round 13: Savard 1st

Lowest vote

NONE

MXD · Mar 27, 2014

TheDevilMadeMe said:
Round 1 List

Rank | name
1 | Wayne Gretzky
2 | Mario Lemieux
3 | Jean Beliveau
4 | Howie Morenz
5 | Stan Mikita
6 | Bobby Clarke
7 | Mark Messier
8 | Phil Esposito
9 | Bryan Trottier
10 | Newsy Lalonde
11 | Cyclone Taylor
12 | Joe Sakic
13 | Steve Yzerman
14 | Frank Nighbor
15 | Milt Schmidt
16 | Frank Boucher
17 | Marcel Dionne
18 | Syl Apps, Sr
19 | Max Bentley
20 | Henri Richard
21 | Peter Stastny
22 | Peter Forsberg
23 | Sidney Crosby
24 | Joe Malone
25 | Sid Abel
26 | Elmer Lach
27 | Bill Cowley
28 | Nels Stewart
29 | Ron Francis
30 | Sergei Fedorov
31 | Dave Keon*
32 | Jean Ratelle
33 | Norm Ullman
34 | Alex Delvecchio
35 | Hooley Smith
36 | Pavel Datsyuk
37 | Adam Oates
38 | Doug Gilmour
39 | Igor Larionov*
40 | Ted Kennedy
41 | Gilbert Perreault
42 | Dale Hawerchuck
43 | Evgeni Malkin
44 | Darryl Sittler
45 | Jacques Lemaire
46 | Marty Barry
47 | Joe Thornton
48 | Denis Savard
49 | Duke Keats
50 | Pat Lafontaine
51 | Mike Modano
52 | Joe Primeau
53 | Henrik Sedin
54 | Alexander Maltsev*
55 | Eric Lindros
56 | Frank Frederickson*
57 | Mats Sundin
58 | Russell Bowie*
59 | Guy Carbonneau
60 | Frank Foyston
61 | Mickey Mackey
62 | Tommy Dunderdale*
63 | Vaclav Nedomansky
64 | Neil Colville
65 | Pierre Turgeon
66 | Bernie Morris
67 | Joe Nieuwendyk
68 | Bernie Nicholls
69 | Rod Brind'Amour
70 | Henrik Zetterberg
71 | Patrice Bergeron
72 | Vladimir Petrov
73 | Milan Novy
74 | Vyacheslav Starshinov
75 | Billy Burch
76 | Phil Watson
77 | Pit Lepine
78 | Frank McGee
79 | Kirk Muller
80 | Jonathan Toews

Players from our final top 60 not ranked in this top 60
Mickey MacKay at 61
Vaclav Nedomansky at 63
Neil Colville at 64
Henrik Zetterberg at 70
Vladimir Petrov at 72

Players unique to this list
Patrice Bergeron (on 1 other list)

Players ranked highest overall on this list
Max Bentley at 19 - next highest at 20
Peter Stastny at 21 (tied with 1 other)
Henrik Sedin at 53 (tied with 2 others)

Players ranked 2nd highest on this list
Darryl Sittler at 44
Jacques Lemaire at 45
Pat Lafontaine at 50
Neil Colville at 64
Bernie Nicholls at 68
Kirk Muller at 79

Players ranked lowest overall on this list
Eric Lindros at 55 - next lowest at 49

Players ranked 2nd lowest on this list
Vladimir Petrov at 72

Round 2 voting

Round | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th | 7th | 8th | none
1 | Gretzky | Lemieux | Beliveau | Morenz | Mikita | Clarke | Messier | Trottier |Esposito
2 | Mikita | Messier | Clarke | Trottier | Sakic | Esposito | Nighbor | Lalonde | Taylor, Yzerman
3 | Trottier | Sakic | Esposito | Lalonde | Yzerman | Taylor | Schmidt | Apps | Dionne
4 | Lalonde | Yzerman | Boucher | Apps | Richard | Schmidt | Dionne | Forsberg | Malone
5 | Richard | Schmidt | Dionne | Forsberg | Crosby | Malone | Kennedy | Bentley | Fedorov
6 | Crosby | Malone | Kennedy | Cowley | Bentley | Lach | Stewart | Stastny | Abel, Fedorov, Keon, Ullman
7 | Cowley | Bentley | Lach | Stewart | Ullman | Stastny | Fedorov | Abel | Delvecchio, Francis, Keon
8 | Stewart | Stastny | Fedorov | Abel | Keon | Gilmour | Francis | Delvecchio | Lindros, Oates, Perreault
9 | Stastny | Gilmour | Francis | Delvecchio | Perreault | Oates | Maltsev | Thornton | Hawerchuk, Lindros, Malkin
10 | Delvecchio | Smith | Perreault | Ratelle | Oates | Datsyuk | Hawerchuk | Lindros | Bowie, Larionov, Malkin
11 | Smith | Perreault | Ratelle | Datsyuk | Hawerchuk | Modano | Malkin | Larionov | Bowie, MacKay, Petrov, Savard
12 | Ratelle | Barry | Modano | Hawerchuk | Savard | Larionov | Petrov | MacKay | Fredrickson, Primeau, Sittler, Sundin
13 | Savard | Petrov | Nedomansky | Larionov | Zetterberg | MacKay | Fredrickson | Lafontaine | Keats, Lemaire, Primeau, Sittler, Sundin
14 | Nedomansky | Zetterberg | Fredrickson | Lafontaine | Keats | Sundin | Lemaire | Sittler | Dunderdale, Foyston, McGee, Morris, Primeau, Sedin
15 | Keats | Lemaire | Colville | Lafontaine | Foyston | Primeau | Carbonneau | Sedin | Brind'amour, Dunderdale, Federko, McGee, Morris, Nieuwendyk, Novy, Roenick, Starshinov, Stamkos, Turgeon
16 | Colville | Lafontaine | Foyston | Primeau | Sedin | Roenick | | |

Highest vote

Round 8: Stastny 2nd
Round 9: Stastny 1st
Round 13: Savard 1st

Lowest vote

Round 14: Sittler 8th

Purely procedural comment : two participants had Sittler NR in round 14. Does it mean I'm still considered "lowest" vote ?

TheDevilMadeMe · Mar 27, 2014

MXD said:
Purely procedural comment : two participants had Sittler NR in round 14. Does it mean I'm still considered "lowest" vote ?

No, you are not the lowest if there are 2 NRs below you. This has been fixed in the OP

monster_bertuzzi · Mar 27, 2014

Lemaire over Thornton is a laugh.

Ohashi_Jouzu* · Mar 27, 2014

This list gets weird about half way through. I was immediately drawn to Sittler and Lemaire side by side right after Hawerchuk/Malkin... then 10 spots later found Lindros, Sundin (oddly bookended by pretty varied stars of yesteryear in Fredrickson/Bowie), and Carbonneau hanging out together. One of the oddest lists so far in terms of identifiable rhyme/reason.

VMBM · Mar 28, 2014

Man, that's really low opinion of Vladimir Petrov at first, but I can see it changed along the way (e.g. in relation to Larionov & Nedomansky [& Novy]). There really should be a gap between Petrov and Novy (TDMM might think otherwise), and in the end, I'm glad that there was.

MXD · Mar 28, 2014

VMBM said:
Man, that's really low opinion of Vladimir Petrov at first, but I can see it changed along the way (e.g. in relation to Larionov & Nedomansky [& Novy]). There really should be a gap between Petrov and Novy (TDMM might think otherwise), and in the end, I'm glad that there was.

Indeed.

If there is one thing on my list that I dislike (well, except from what is really a cut+paste mistake regarding Stastny -- who should really have been in the high 30ies), it's Petrov that low.

TheDevilMadeMe · Mar 28, 2014

VMBM said:
Man, that's really low opinion of Vladimir Petrov at first, but I can see it changed along the way (e.g. in relation to Larionov & Nedomansky [& Novy]). There really should be a gap between Petrov and Novy (TDMM might think otherwise), and in the end, I'm glad that there was.

Why would I think differently? I said I wanted Nedomanksy/Petrov a step above Larionov/Novy on my Round 1 list, and had quite the gap between Petrov and Novy in Round 2. Anyway, this thread is about MXD; I just had to respond since I was mentioned by name

Dennis Bonvie · Mar 28, 2014

monster_bertuzzi said:
Lemaire over Thornton is a laugh.

I didn't laugh when I put Lemaire over Thornton.

Killion · Mar 28, 2014

Dennis Bonvie said:
I didn't laugh when I put Lemaire over Thornton.

No, and nor would I have either laughed or thought twice about it. Overall, Im afraid I cant agree with in fact the bulk of those rankings however Im sure MXD gave considerable thought to each & everyone, not here to criticize, but nopity nope, not the way Im seein it and thats literally from #4 on down the line.

Dennis Bonvie · Mar 28, 2014

I like the heresy of Taylor & Lalonde over Nighbor, but round 2 was a bit of a wimp out.

unknown33 · Mar 28, 2014

Killion said:
but nopity nope, not the way Im seein it and thats literally from #4 on down the line.

Why from #4 down the line? The Top 30 look very similar to the final list other than Stastny who MXD admitted was a C&P mistake.

(If you're implying that you're disagree with most lists in general - which ofc is fine too - it's confusing that you've singled out a specific posters list.)

MXD · Mar 28, 2014

Dennis Bonvie said:
I like the heresy of Taylor & Lalonde over Nighbor, but round 2 was a bit of a wimp out.

I remember saying, and being somewhat scolded by TDDM when I said it (scold might be too harsh...) that round 2 was the mistakes correcting stage.

Which is exactly what I did with Neighbor.

However, I totally stick to my guns on the Taylor/Lalonde debate.

I did something pretty interesting at home. Will post it when Im back, including on the Ohasi comment, to which I do have a few things to say.

Killion · Mar 28, 2014

unknown33 said:
If you're implying that you're disagree with most lists in general - which ofc is fine too - it's confusing that you've singled out a specific posters list.

I havent singled out MXD & have commented on others lists as well. As I didnt participate Im not about to engage in any overt criticisms of anyones list. If thats how they see things then thats just fine. Do I agree with some of the rankings be it MXD, tarheel, TDMM's or anyone elses? No, not always. What I might consider more important in a player obviously not shared by whomever. If I wanted to debate whatever selections & rankings? Id have signed up & on, participated.

unknown33 · Mar 28, 2014

Killion said:
I havent singled out MXD & have commented on others lists as well.

I understand. I thought you mean that you disagree with MXD's list in particular.

MXD · Mar 28, 2014

Revisited Top-60 : A Rough Outlook

Taking Round 2 votes and filling appropriately some "voids" (Sittler, Bowie, amongst others), my Current Top-60 actually looks like this (Lafontaine is indeed 60th)

Gretz
Lemieux
BÃ©liveau
Morenz
Stan Mikita*
Mark Messier*
Bobby Clarke*
Bryan Trottier
Joe Sakic
Phil Esposito
Frank Nighbor
Newsy Lalonde
Steve Yzerman
Frank Boucher
Fred Cyclone Taylor
Syl Apps
Henri Richard*
Milt Schmidt
Marcel Dionne
Peter Forsberg
Sidney Crosby
Joe Malone
Ted Kennedy
Bill Cowley
Max Bentley
Elmer Lach*
Nels Stewart*
Norm Ullman
Peter Stastny
Sergei Fedorov
Sid Abel*
Dave Keon
Doug Gilmour
Ron Francis*
Alex Delvecchio
Hooley Smith
Gilbert Perreault
Adam Oates
Alexander Maltsev
Joe Thornton
Eric Lindros
Jean Ratelle
Pavel Datsyuk
Marty Barry
Mike Modano
Dale Hawerchuk
Evgeni Malkin*
Denis Savard
Dubbie Bowie
Vladimir Petrov
Vaclav Nedomansky
Igor Larionov
Henrik Zetterberg
Mickey Mackey
Frank Fredrickson
Duke Keats
Mats Sundin
Jacques Lemaire
Neil Colville
Pat Lafontaine
__________________
Daryl Sittler
Frank Foyston
Joe Primeau
Guy Carbonneau
Henrik Sedin

MXD · Mar 28, 2014

Ohashi_Jouzu said:
This list gets weird about half way through. I was immediately drawn to Sittler and Lemaire side by side right after Hawerchuk/Malkin... then 10 spots later found Lindros, Sundin (oddly bookended by pretty varied stars of yesteryear in Fredrickson/Bowie), and Carbonneau hanging out together. One of the oddest lists so far in terms of identifiable rhyme/reason.

Some people pigeonhole themselves as peak guys; others at prime guys. Some weight longevity, or even vs. peer longevity, more than peak or prime. Some choose to put a lot of emphasis on two way play, while some others view defensive play as a career move a player had to do in order to remain in the league. Some tend to value more recent years, some tend to value more the 81-to-95 era. Some only swear by the O6, whie others think the pre-merger players gets systematically underrated and establish their rankings accordingly. Some might even give lots of importance to facial hair.

I just try to stay above that and go with my gut feelings, bringing changes as needed. A perfect-two way player with incredible iceQ playing in the '70ies might be a better player than an offensive brute who'd hit a lot and was somewhat wanting in every other areas who played in the '40ies, but the reason why I'll consider him better will have nothing to do with the fact he was a perfect-two way player with incredible iceQ who played in the '70ies. It will be because I consider him better -- plain and simple.

This isn't the first time I've heard the comment about the somewhat impermissible-to-establish-trend lists, and I guess I'll probably hear it if I'm ever to take part in the Wingers project. But you know what? The somewhat non-sensical aspects of the list will be edged out by round 2 (just look where I had Sittler in Round 2; wouldn't be in my Top-60) anyways.

THIS SAID, I do admit that my end-rankings end up being somewhat friendly the '30ies/early '40ies (even if this isn't exactly fool-proof; just looking at where I had Tiny Thompson for the Goalies...). For no decent reason to speak of actually, as this was probably the low point of the Habs history. I somehow end up ranking rivals I've witnessed slightly better than the group overall (Stastny -- even when only looking at round 2 --, Bergeron, Bourque, even Thomas to a certain extent; expect to see Goulet slightly high as well if ever I'm in the Wingers project; not exactly sure about Neely though cause he's a player that can get wildly overrated... or wildly underrated as well actually), Joe Thornton being a notable exception in that regards.

For the purposes of the earlier paragraph, there's really only two rivals : Nordiques and Bruins.

Dennis Bonvie · Mar 28, 2014

MXD said:
Taking Round 2 votes and filling appropriately some "voids" (Sittler, Bowie, amongst others), my Current Top-60 actually looks like this (Lafontaine is indeed 60th)

Gretz
Lemieux
BÃ©liveau
Morenz
Stan Mikita*
Mark Messier*
Bobby Clarke*
Bryan Trottier
Joe Sakic
Phil Esposito
Frank Nighbor
Newsy Lalonde
Steve Yzerman
Frank Boucher
Fred Cyclone Taylor
Syl Apps
Henri Richard*
Milt Schmidt
Marcel Dionne
Peter Forsberg
Sidney Crosby
Joe Malone
Ted Kennedy
Bill Cowley
Max Bentley
Elmer Lach*
Nels Stewart*
Norm Ullman
Peter Stastny
Sergei Fedorov
Sid Abel*
Dave Keon
Doug Gilmour
Ron Francis*
Alex Delvecchio
Hooley Smith
Gilbert Perreault
Adam Oates
Alexander Maltsev
Joe Thornton
Eric Lindros
Jean Ratelle
Pavel Datsyuk
Marty Barry
Mike Modano
Dale Hawerchuk
Evgeni Malkin*
Denis Savard
Dubbie Bowie
Vladimir Petrov
Vaclav Nedomansky
Igor Larionov
Henrik Zetterberg
Mickey Mackey
Frank Fredrickson
Duke Keats
Mats Sundin
Jacques Lemaire
Neil Colville
Pat Lafontaine
__________________
Daryl Sittler
Frank Foyston
Joe Primeau
Guy Carbonneau
Henrik Sedin

I knew it!

Dennis Bonvie · Mar 28, 2014

MXD said:
Some people pigeonhole themselves as peak guys; others at prime guys. Some weight longevity, or even vs. peer longevity, more than peak or prime. Some choose to put a lot of emphasis on two way play, while some others view defensive play as a career move a player had to do in order to remain in the league. Some tend to value more recent years, some tend to value more the 81-to-95 era. Some only swear by the O6, whie others think the pre-merger players gets systematically underrated and establish their rankings accordingly. Some might even give lots of importance to facial hair.

I just try to stay above that and go with my gut feelings, bringing changes as needed. A perfect-two way player with incredible iceQ playing in the '70ies might be a better player than an offensive brute who'd hit a lot and was somewhat wanting in every other areas who played in the '40ies, but the reason why I'll consider him better will have nothing to do with the fact he was a perfect-two way player with incredible iceQ who played in the '70ies. It will be because I consider him better -- plain and simple.

This isn't the first time I've heard the comment about the somewhat impermissible-to-establish-trend lists, and I guess I'll probably hear it if I'm ever to take part in the Wingers project. But you know what? The somewhat non-sensical aspects of the list will be edged out by round 2 (just look where I had Sittler in Round 2; wouldn't be in my Top-60) anyways.

THIS SAID, I do admit that my end-rankings end up being somewhat friendly the '30ies/early '40ies (even if this isn't exactly fool-proof; just looking at where I had Tiny Thompson for the Goalies...). For no decent reason to speak of actually, as this was probably the low point of the Habs history. I somehow end up ranking rivals I've witnessed slightly better than the group overall (Stastny, Bergeron, Bourque, even Thomas to a certain extent; expect to see Goulet slightly high as well if ever I'm in the Wingers project), Joe Thornton being a notable exception in that regards.

Of course. That makes perfect sense.

Ohashi_Jouzu* · Mar 28, 2014

MXD said:
Some people pigeonhole themselves as peak guys; others at prime guys. Some weight longevity, or even vs. peer longevity, more than peak or prime. Some choose to put a lot of emphasis on two way play, while some others view defensive play as a career move a player had to do in order to remain in the league. Some tend to value more recent years, some tend to value more the 81-to-95 era. Some only swear by the O6, whie others think the pre-merger players gets systematically underrated and establish their rankings accordingly. Some might even give lots of importance to facial hair.

I just try to stay above that and go with my gut feelings, bringing changes as needed. A perfect-two way player with incredible iceQ playing in the '70ies might be a better player than an offensive brute who'd hit a lot and was somewhat wanting in every other areas who played in the '40ies, but the reason why I'll consider him better will have nothing to do with the fact he was a perfect-two way player with incredible iceQ who played in the '70ies. It will be because I consider him better -- plain and simple.

Sure. I mean, who isn't doing something similar (combo of "HoF Monitor points", VsX tables, media excerpts, observation, research, etc)? It's not that I can't see any hint of consistency or structure. Litmus test of Fedorov>Gilmour>Francis>Larionov is fine enough, for example. It's just how Lindros, Malkin, and Sundin figure in from there that seems to get interesting to me. And then it's always interesting to see how the real "yesteryear" players work themselves into the order on top of that.

MXD said:
This isn't the first time I've heard the comment about the somewhat impermissible-to-establish-trend lists, and I guess I'll probably hear it if I'm ever to take part in the Wingers project. But you know what? The somewhat non-sensical aspects of the list will be edged out by round 2 (just look where I had Sittler in Round 2; wouldn't be in my Top-60) anyways.

THIS SAID, I do admit that my end-rankings end up being somewhat friendly the '30ies/early '40ies (even if this isn't exactly fool-proof; just looking at where I had Tiny Thompson for the Goalies...). For no decent reason to speak of actually, as this was probably the low point of the Habs history. I somehow end up ranking rivals I've witnessed slightly better than the group overall (Stastny -- even when only looking at round 2 --, Bergeron, Bourque, even Thomas to a certain extent; expect to see Goulet slightly high as well if ever I'm in the Wingers project; not exactly sure about Neely though cause he's a player that can get wildly overrated... or wildly underrated as well actually), Joe Thornton being a notable exception in that regards.

For the purposes of the earlier paragraph, there's really only two rivals : Nordiques and Bruins.

I'm not entirely sure what "somewhat impermissible-to-establish-trend lists" means. I don't necessarily agree with any mechanism that starts off with the preconceived notion that Player X "must" be a "top Y" whatever, and works in reverse to substantiate it from there. Maybe I'm using the wrong word to describe what I'm gauging here, but a list seems more "legitimate" as opposed to "arbitrary" (which are obviously the asymptotes that no one can realistically approach in either direction, given the amount of work and knowledge going into all this, but also the scope of era/player involved) to me the more dots I can connect in the most ways going from 1 to 60.

Not that I've studied each list so far under a microscope. Like I said, that one stretch half way through yours kind of caught my eye, and now here we are, lol.

pappyline · Mar 29, 2014

MXD said:
Taking Round 2 votes and filling appropriately some "voids" (Sittler, Bowie, amongst others), my Current Top-60 actually looks like this (Lafontaine is indeed 60th)

Gretz
Lemieux
BÃ©liveau
Morenz
Stan Mikita*
Mark Messier*
Bobby Clarke*
Bryan Trottier
Joe Sakic
Phil Esposito
Frank Nighbor
Newsy Lalonde
Steve Yzerman
Frank Boucher
Fred Cyclone Taylor
Syl Apps
Henri Richard*
Milt Schmidt
Marcel Dionne
Peter Forsberg
Sidney Crosby
Joe Malone
Ted Kennedy
Bill Cowley
Max Bentley
Elmer Lach*
Nels Stewart*
Norm Ullman
Peter Stastny
Sergei Fedorov
Sid Abel*
Dave Keon
Doug Gilmour
Ron Francis*
Alex Delvecchio
Hooley Smith
Gilbert Perreault
Adam Oates
Alexander Maltsev
Joe Thornton
Eric Lindros
Jean Ratelle
Pavel Datsyuk
Marty Barry
Mike Modano
Dale Hawerchuk
Evgeni Malkin*
Denis Savard
Dubbie Bowie
Vladimir Petrov
Vaclav Nedomansky
Igor Larionov
Henrik Zetterberg
Mickey Mackey
Frank Fredrickson
Duke Keats
Mats Sundin
Jacques Lemaire
Neil Colville
Pat Lafontaine
__________________
Daryl Sittler
Frank Foyston
Joe Primeau
Guy Carbonneau
Henrik Sedin

One thing I find interesting is the Ullman/Delvecchio placing. Now I saw both play and always felt that Delvecchio was the better player. From what I remember that was the general opinion of others at the time. Most of the voters seemed to be swayed by the statistics and rated Ullman higher. On the aggregate list Ullman was #30 & moved to #25 on the final list. Delvecchio was # 34 & dropped to #37. Should be flipped IMO.

Dennis Bonvie · Mar 30, 2014

pappyline said:
One thing I find interesting is the Ullman/Delvecchio placing. Now I saw both play and always felt that Delvecchio was the better player. From what I remember that was the general opinion of others at the time. Most of the voters seemed to be swayed by the statistics and rated Ullman higher. On the aggregate list Ullman was #30 & moved to #25 on the final list. Delvecchio was # 34 & dropped to #37. Should be flipped IMO.

I agree.

Had Delvecchio just slightly ahead of Ullman on my original list.

Had always felt Ullman was overlooked, very underrated. Somewhere along the line he jumped to overrated.

tjcurrie · Mar 30, 2014

monster_bertuzzi said:
Lemaire over Thornton is a laugh.

More than that to laugh at.

MXD · Mar 30, 2014

monster_bertuzzi said:
Lemaire over Thornton is a laugh.

Where's your list, o enlightened one?

Also, congratulations on the terrific support of your opinion.

MXD · Mar 30, 2014

tjcurrie said:
More than that to laugh at.

See post below yours.

HOH Top 60 Centers List & Voting Record - MXD

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