HOH Top 60 Centers List & Voting Record - MXD

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

One thing I find interesting is the Ullman/Delvecchio placing. Now I saw both play and always felt that Delvecchio was the better player. From what I remember that was the general opinion of others at the time. Most of the voters seemed to be swayed by the statistics and rated Ullman higher. On the aggregate list Ullman was #30 & moved to #25 on the final list. Delvecchio was # 34 & dropped to #37. Should be flipped IMO.

Not that it's particular to this list, obviously, but I'd also agree. I was born as Ullman's career was winding up, but Ullman>Abel>Delvecchio was another element that brought me back for thought after I noticed it.

 

[seventieslord]

One thing I find interesting is the Ullman/Delvecchio placing. Now I saw both play and always felt that Delvecchio was the better player. From what I remember that was the general opinion of others at the time. Most of the voters seemed to be swayed by the statistics and rated Ullman higher. On the aggregate list Ullman was #30 & moved to #25 on the final list. Delvecchio was # 34 & dropped to #37. Should be flipped IMO.

Which others? The people who voted on awards like the Hart and All-star teams don't seem to be among those others.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Voting

Which others? The people who voted on awards like the Hart and All-star teams don't seem to be among those others.

Those people were just voting on awards and honours on a by season or half season basis, not ranking the players on an all time list.

That people over emphasize such votes is another issue all together.

 

[MXD]

Those people were just voting on awards and honours on a by season or half season basis, not ranking the players on an all time list.

That people over emphasize such votes is another issue all together.

Well, if a players get such votes on a yearly basis, that kindof hints at the fact he's deserving of this very list, no?

Were those writers "right"?

I don't know, but I think we have to presume they were, except for the PLAINLY obvious cases.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Voting Writers

Well, if a players get such votes on a yearly basis, that kindof hints at the fact he's deserving of this very list, no?

Were those writers "right"?

I don't know, but I think we have to presume they were, except for the PLAINLY obvious cases.

The following forwards have at least one AST honour. Chris Kunitz, Ray Whitney, James Neal, Zach Parise,Danny Heatley, Gerard Gallant, John Ogrodnick, John Tonelli, Rene Robert. In all instances the voting writers captured the circumstances of each season.

Conversely George Armstrong has zero AST honours. Again the voting writers captured the circumstances of each season.

Does the difference in AST honours zero vs one or two offer a starting point to argue that the players with one or two AST honours listed above were better than George Armstrong? Highly doubtful

The voting writers were not asked to make career determinations or rank on a career basis.

Honours and award voting has a right place at the right time / wrong place at the wrong time aspect that has to be considered.

In the context of Ullman / Delvecchio, same number of AST honours, Delvecchio has three Byngs which get ignored even though they came from an era where Byng wins had merit. Ullman simply had a better scoring face so he was preferred.

 

[unknown33]

The following forwards have at least one AST honour. Chris Kunitz, Ray Whitney, James Neal, Zach Parise,Danny Heatley, Gerard Gallant, John Ogrodnick, John Tonelli, Rene Robert. In all instances the voting writers captured the circumstances of each season.

Conversely George Armstrong has zero AST honours. Again the voting writers captured the circumstances of each season.

Didn't Ullman and Delvecchio play at the same time, while some of the players you've mentioned played decades after Armstrong retired?


I agree partly with your position that 'In all instances the voting writers captured the circumstances of each season.', but what an unfortunate and illogical example.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Examples

Didn't Ullman and Delvecchio play at the same time, while some of the players you've mentioned played decades after Armstrong retired?


I agree partly with your position that 'In all instances the voting writers captured the circumstances of each season.', but what an unfortunate and illogical example.

Used modern players that are familiar to the audience.

If it makes you happy consider Bobby Rousseau, Dean Prentice, Danny Lewicki and others.

 

[Hardyvan123]

The following forwards have at least one AST honour. Chris Kunitz, Ray Whitney, James Neal, Zach Parise,Danny Heatley, Gerard Gallant, John Ogrodnick, John Tonelli, Rene Robert. In all instances the voting writers captured the circumstances of each season.

Conversely George Armstrong has zero AST honours. Again the voting writers captured the circumstances of each season.

Does the difference in AST honours zero vs one or two offer a starting point to argue that the players with one or two AST honours listed above were better than George Armstrong? Highly doubtful

Armstrong is a really bad example as he cracked the top 20 in scoring how many times? Maybe 2 times, in 62 he was 18th in scoring in a 6 team league.

The voting writers were not asked to make career determinations or rank on a career basis.

No yearly all star teams are for one season segments.

Honours and award voting has a right place at the right time / wrong place at the wrong time aspect that has to be considered.

Everything should be considered in context, all star and award voting is no difference.

In the context of Ullman / Delvecchio, same number of AST honours, Delvecchio has three Byngs which get ignored even though they came from an era where Byng wins had merit. Ullman simply had a better scoring face so he was preferred.

Ullman sure got a huge bump in this project, IMO got vastly over rated.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Not that I understand why this conversation is going on in this thread, but George Armstrong was top 20 in regular season scoring five times

 

[Killion]

Not that I understand why this conversation is going on in this thread, but George Armstrong was top 20 in regular season scoring five times

... and he did play in 7 ASG's, "Selected" 3X's & as a member of the Leafs of course 4 other All Star Appearances on top of 4 Stanley Cups, being Captain of the team, and absolutely a fantastic player who's talents & importance to Toronto cannot be quantified statistically. A good example as taken by the numbers alone, whomever would have no idea how important & invaluable a player George Armstrong had been, likely wouldnt understand; then beg to differ with his inclusion in the HHOF.

 

[Hardyvan123]

... and he did play in 7 ASG's, "Selected" 3X's & as a member of the Leafs of course 4 other All Star Appearances on top of 4 Stanley Cups, being Captain of the team, and absolutely a fantastic player who's talents & importance to Toronto cannot be quantified statistically. A good example as taken by the numbers alone, whomever would have no idea how important & invaluable a player George Armstrong had been, likely wouldnt understand; then beg to differ with his inclusion in the HHOF.

My I can hardly wait till the best wingers of all time arguments and how over rated this guy is going to be.

I stand corrected on hos many times he made the top 20, in a 6 team league, and when Dmen weren't part of the offense that they would be in the 70's and 80's.

His offensive peak, prime...whatever is still really very unimpressive no matter how one slices it.

But no doubt the intangibles of yesteryear will be so much better than, say a guy like John Tonelli?

 

[Killion]

But no doubt the intangibles of yesteryear will be so much better than, say a guy like John Tonelli?

Not really. Tonelli also a graduate of the Toronto Marlboro system like Armstrong. Lots of parallels. Woven on the same loom. JT jumping to the WHA & at 18 playing on a line in Houston with Gordie & former Marlie team mate Marty Howe.... Interestingly Hv, George Armstrong Head Coach of the Marlboros in their final years of Junior and pretty clear that much of what The Chief preached rubbed off on John Tonelli. Lots of grit, invaluable intangibles with that guy.

 

[MXD]

Not that I understand why this conversation is going on in this thread, but George Armstrong was top 20 in regular season scoring five times

... and he did play in 7 ASG's, "Selected" 3X's & as a member of the Leafs of course 4 other All Star Appearances on top of 4 Stanley Cups, being Captain of the team, and absolutely a fantastic player who's talents & importance to Toronto cannot be quantified statistically. A good example as taken by the numbers alone, whomever would have no idea how important & invaluable a player George Armstrong had been, likely wouldnt understand; then beg to differ with his inclusion in the HHOF.

While Armstrong was a good player...

60 wingers is not a lot. On a list where Michel Goulet will have trouble cracking the Top-40, and were Cecil Dillion will have trouble cracking the Top-60, I don't exactly know why we're talking about Armstrong.

(I haven't make any kind of pre-list, so I might be completely off. Furthermore, last time I said something like that regarding any player, it was about Colville... who ended up making it one year later).

My I can hardly wait till the best wingers of all time arguments and how over rated this guy is going to be.

I stand corrected on hos many times he made the top 20, in a 6 team league, and when Dmen weren't part of the offense that they would be in the 70's and 80's.

His offensive peak, prime...whatever is still really very unimpressive no matter how one slices it.

But no doubt the intangibles of yesteryear will be so much better than, say a guy like John Tonelli?