HOH Top-50 Non-NHL Europeans Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

Sentinel

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You must REALLY disregard career achievements to place Krutov over Larionov. Sure, Krutov had the higher peak. But the peak only lasted for 3 years tops. Larionov has over 15 years of relevance on Krutov! Larionov has one fewer Soviet MVP than Krutov, but three frigging Stanley Cups (including his timeless 44 y.o. triple OT goal) should count for something!
 
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Batis

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Unfortunately, the source we used to use for Izvestia Golden Stick voting went down before we could copy full records.

I believe we only copied the full record for 3 players who did surprisingly well by the awards voters:

Jiri Lala (RW, CSSR): 3rd(1981), 3rd(1983), 4th(1982), 4th(1985)
Jiri Kralik (G, CSSR): 1st (1985), 5th (1983), 7th (1982)
Pekka(Peter) Lindmark (G, Sweden): 3rd (1986), 5th (1981), 5th (1988)

Full list of winners of the Izvestia Golden Stick (but alas, no full voting records):

1978-79 - B. Mikhailov
1979-80 - S. Makarov
1980-81 - V. Tretiak
1981-82 - V. Tretiak
1982-83 - V. Tretiak
1983-84 - V. Fetisov
1984-85 - J. Kralik
1985-86 - S. Makarov
1986-87 - V. Krutov
1987-88 - V. Fetisov
1988-89 - S. Makarov

I believe that the Izvestia Golden Stick winner in 88/89 was Fetisov not Makarov.

I found this post a while ago while searching for the voting results of the Izvestia Golden Stick.

Golden Stick voting (Best European):
Boris Mikhailov – 1st(1979), 2nd(1980)
Sergei Makarov – 1st(1980), 4th(1981), 6th(1982), 4th(1983), 4th(1984), 2nd(1985), 1st(1986), 4th(1987), 3rd(1988), 3rd(1989)
Valeri Vasiliev – 3rd(1980), 8th(1981), 8th(1982)
Vladislav Tretiak – 6th(1980), 1st(1981), 1st(1982), 1st(1983), 2nd(1984)
Vladimir Krutov – 7th(1980), 2nd(1983), 5th(1984), 5th(1985), 2nd(1986), 1st(1987), 2nd((1988)
Marian Stastny – 8th(1980)
Pelle Lindbergh – 9th(1980)
Alexander Maltsev – 10th(1980), 2nd(1981)
Vladimir Martinec – 7th(1981)
Jiri Lala – 3rd(1981), 4th(1982), 3rd(1983), 4th(1985)
Peter Lindmark – 5th(1981), 3rd(1986), 5th(1988)
Milan Novy – 2nd(1982)
Viktor Shalimov – 3rd(1982)
Jiri Kralik – 9th(1982), 5th(1983), 1st(1985)
Igor Larionov – 6th(1983), 5th(1986), 4th(1988), 4th(1988)
Alexei Kasatonov – 9th(1983), 6th(1985), 9th(1986), 5th(1988)
Vyacheslav Fetisov – 10th(1983), 1st(1984), 3rd(1985), 4th(1986), 5th(1987), 1st(1988), 1st(1989)
Dominik Hasek – 3rd(1984), 3rd(1987), 2nd(1989)

Even if Makarov "only" won the award twice his voting record throughout the 80´s is very impressive. He finished top four in voting 9 times and top six during all 10 seasons of that decade. Fetisov has very strong top results (3-time winner) but "only" finished top five 6 times. Which in my opinion gives Makarov a pretty strong case for having the strongest voting record (based on the available information we have) in the Izvestia Golden Stick voting. Although I guess that Fetisov being a defenceman might make his voting record just as impressive.

And when we consider that the award only started in 78/79 Tretiak also has a case for the most impressive voting record. As it is pretty likely that he would have gotten even better results than Makarov and Fetisov had the award been around his entire career. In general goaltenders seemed to do very well in the Izvestia voting. Tretiak (3-time winner), Kralik (1-win), Lindmark (Top five 3 times) and Hasek (Top three 3 times).

Another noteworthy thing is that Krutov just like in Soviet player of the year voting was far ahead of Larionov when it comes to Izvestia Golden Stick voting. Krutov was top two in the voting 4 times while Larionov never managed to finish higher than in the 4th-6th place region.

And yes Lalas voting record between 80/81 and 84/85 is really impressive. During that time frame he was really up there competing with the best.

* According to the list Kasatonov and Lindmark both were in 5th place in 1988. Whether they tied in voting or thats a mistake I do not know.
** Larionov being 4th in 1988 appears twice on the list.
 
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Batis

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You must REALLY disregard career achievements to place Krutov over Larionov. Sure, Krutov had the higher peak. But the peak only lasted for 3 years tops. Larionov has over 15 years of relevance on Krutov! Larionov has one fewer Soviet MVP than Krutov, but three frigging Stanley Cups (including his timeless 44 y.o. triple OT goal) should count for something!

(QEP)

Krutov was not only ahead of Larionov during his 3-year peak. He was first a far superior junior player (77/78-79/80) and then considered the superior player for the majority of the 80´s. Krutov was miles ahead of Larionov both when it comes to Soviet player of the year voting and Izvestia golden stick voting. See the post above and also the post about the Soviet player of the year voting shares of the members of the Green Unit. Krutov was in other words considered to be far ahead of Larionov in their primes by most Soviet and European observers. Is Larionovs kind of longevity (a good player for a very long time outside his prime) really enough to make up for Krutovs big advantage in their primes? In my opinion it is not.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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That's not a bad choice, though I think Holmqvist was the more celebrated goaltender in Sweden. That might be a result of playing behind a weaker team than Lindmark though.

I've noticed that for whatever reason, the best European players from the 60s and 70s are usually ranked ahead of the best European players from the 80s on most traditional lists. I know most lists of the best Soviet players lists (outside of hfboards) usually have Kharlamov or Firsov as the top ranked forward, even though Makarov was more dominant against his contemporaries, in what was likely a stronger era than at least Firsov.

A quick overview of the top European goaltenders:


Holecek
5x WC Directorate Award (1971, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1978)
5x WC All-Star Team (1971, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1978)
Czechoslovak Player of the Year "Golden Stick" (1974)
6x Czechoslovak All-Star Team (1971-1976)

Tretiak
3x WC Directorate Award (1974, 1979, 1983)
3x WC All-Star Team (1975, 1979, 1983)
Soviet Player of the Year (1974, 1975, 1976, 1981, 1983)
13x Soviet All-Star Team (1971-1979, 1981-1984)
Canada Cup All-Star Team (1981)
Canada Cup MVP (1981)

Kralik
2x WC Directorate Award (1982, 1985)
2x WC All-Star Team (1982, 1985)
Czechoslovak Player of the Year "Golden Stick" (1985)

Lindmark
2x WC Directorate Award (1981, 1986)
2x WC All-Star Team (1981, 1986)
Swedish Player of the Year "Guldpucken" (1981)
5x Swedish All-Star Team (1981, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988)

Dzurilla
WC Directorate Award (1965)
2x WC All-Star Team (1965, 1969)
3x Czechoslovak All-Star Team (1969, 1970, 1977)

Holmqvist
WC Directorate Award (1969)
2x Swedish Player of the Year "Guldpucken" (1968, 1970)
7x Swedish All-Star Team (1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971)

Konovalenko
WC All-Star Team (1970)
7x Soviet All-Star Team (1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970)
Soviet Player of the Year (1970)


Who would be the other top candidates? Ylönen? Myshkin?

Bohumil Modry, the goaltender from the late 40s Czechoslovak team might have a case. He finished pretty high on that "best Czech players of all time" megalist (see post 51). Other than that, I really don't know all that much about him that isn't just championship counting.
 
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VMBM

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Hlinka is clearly rated so high on that list because of the afterglow of coaching the 1998 Olympics.

Everything else? Hlinka's stats are significantly worse than Novy's (domestic and international). But stats aren't everything. And as for contemporary opinion, Novy was selected the 1st Team All Star C by Czech papers over Hlinka almost every year. And not that any CSSR forward other than Martinec was all that decorated internationally on those (post-Nedomansky) teams, but Novy did make the WC All-Star Team once (1976) and was an All-Star at the Canada Cup that same year, versus no international awards for Hlinka that I can see.

Hlinka was the AS centre at the 1978 WHC, over Marcel Dionne who was selected as the best forward by the IIHF Directorate - a choice which I'm not so sure of. I think e.g. Hlinka and Balderis might have been better than Dionne in the tournament; certainly both scored far more points against the good teams than Dionne. Then again, they played on better teams too and I don't want to start to rewrite history, so nevermind... anyway, both Hlinka and Novy have 1 All-Star selection at the World Championships; Novy of course has that CC All-Star berth in addition.

EVERYONE'S domestic stats are 'clearly worse' than Novy's, at least when talking about his contemporaries (players born around 1950). And I think Hlinka's domestic stats are actually slightly better than Martinec's ('face value'). Unfortunately, I don't have time to check that right now.

Hlinka's international stats aren't clearly worse than Novy's at all; I don't know where you got that from. By a quick count, Hlinka scored 105 points in 107 games in the big international tournaments (WHC, Olympics, Canada Cup), with 0,98 PPG. Novy scored 92 points in 87 games in the big international tournaments, with 1.06 PPG. Novy has a slightly better PPG but less points (and games) in big tournaments. Hardly 'significantly better', if any better.
Their respective Wikipedia pages say that Hlinka scored 132 goals in 256 international games (i.e. big tournaments + all other international tournaments/games), and Novy scored 120 goals in 211 international games.

Don't get me wrong, I'll have Hlinka on my list somewhere, but I really don't see him as particularly close to Novy.

For me, Novy's Golden Stick voting record is the only thing that that keeps Hlinka off Novy's level/tier. Namely, I do think that for a couple of years, Hlinka was the best Czechoslovak player in the late 1970s, at least internationally (both in the 1978 WHC & 1979 WHC).
Don't forget that Novy is in a class by himself, when talking about domestic scoring; no one comes close.

I agree with you that Hlinka was most likely rated higher given the time of the poll.
Having said that, it seems to me that the Czechs always held him in pretty high regard, even before the Olympic victory in 1998.
Hlinka was the modern prototype of a player in the 1970s. He had good size and was strong inside the slot, often scoring goals from close in. He had a snappy wrist shot and was a good stickhandler. He was creative and opened up a lot of space for his linemates. His outgoing personality and humour made him a popular teammate.
At first glance I would rank him in the top 30-40 range.

I agree. Suchý and Pospisil were diametrical players. Suchý was skilled and creative, while Pospisil was disciplined and hard working. As you mentioned, Suchý probably had a better peak than Pospisil. Suchý was flamboyant and had a good skill set, but his career was hurt somewhat by his off ice behaviour. Pospisil is a bit underrated and was in the mold of Valeri Vasiliev.
Very consistent player, a real leader. He wasn’t flashy like Suchý and wasn’t the fastest skater around, but was extremely well-conditioned, could handle the rough stuff. A character player with a winning mentality combined with those strong leadership skills. In my book Suchý is approximately a top 40 player and Pospisil a top 20-30 player.

Holik’s value is not so easily measured just in stats. Any coach would love to have a Jiri Holik on their team, that’s one of the reasons why he played at the world stage for 14 years. Although Jiri Holik was more eye-catching and talented than his more temperamentful brother Jaroslav, he was an extremely hard worker, a good two-way player and an elegant skater. His value is more as a team player than an individual virtuoso. Top 30-40 player in my book.

Nedomanský grew up idolizing Tumba Johansson and in many regards was a player in the same mold.
He was really popular with fans outside of Czechoslovakia in the days.
As we know, Nedomanský had good size and possessed probably the best wrist shot in Europe at the time, clocked at 90 mph. He had great touch around the net. As his speed detoriated, he thrived more in the slot and became more of a powerplay specialist. A top 10-20 player.

Holecek may have been more skilled than Tretiak but wasn’t as consistent.
He tried to emulate the style of his childhood idol Seth Martin and was equally good and fast with his blocker as he was with his glove hand. Holecek had incredible foot speed. Holecek was cool under pressure, but had instances when he just flunked right out of the gates.
Funny thing is that both Holecek and Tretiak started out as forwards when they were kids.
A quick look in the head to head battle against Tretiak we can see that Holecek did really well and was neck to neck with Tretiak. I estimate that I will have Holecek somewhere around Top 20-25.

Season || Jiri Holecek vs Vladislav Tretiak | |
1969/70||
0-0-0​
||
|
1970/71||
1-0-0​
||
|
1971/72||
2-1-1​
||
|
1972/73||
0-0-2​
||
|
1973/74||
1-0-2​
||
|
1974/75||
4-0-3​
||
|
1975/76||
1-1-3​
||
|
1976/77||
2-0-1​
||
|
1977/78||
2-0-2​
||
|
Totals W-T-L:||
13-2-14​
||
|

I totally agree. Ruzicka also benefited from the timing of this poll in 1998.
Many also remembered his important 1-0 goal when Czechoslovakia beat the Soviets at the 1985 World Championships in Prague to capture the gold medal. It is still one of the classic moments in Czech(oslovakian) hockey history. Having said that Ruzicka was a very good player in his own right.
Made his league debut at the age of 16. He lacked that fluent skating style that many of the other top Czech players had, but was very smart with the puck. Had all the skills in the world, but wasn’t always “up for a game.” I think he’s seen a little bit as a hero and cult player by the Czechs. (Correct me if I’m wrong). But I definitely put Pospisil, Nový and Jiri Holik above him. Top 50-60 player.

Nový had that gift that you can’t teach. He was a pure sniper who could score goals from anywhere. He also had the right mindset for scoring goals, always thinking shot before pass. He had that quick and hard wristshot that fooled many goalies. Excellent technique and strong on the puck. He combined that with some swift skating. Now the knock on him was that he didn’t bother too much defensively early on in his career and he also lacked some of the physical play. At any rate a top 30-40 player.

Thanks for these.
 
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Robert Gordon Orr

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Golden Stick voting (Best European):
Boris Mikhailov – 1st(1979), 2nd(1980)
Sergei Makarov – 1st(1980), 4th(1981), 6th(1982), 4th(1983), 4th(1984), 2nd(1985), 1st(1986), 4th(1987), 3rd(1988), 3rd(1989)
Valeri Vasiliev – 3rd(1980), 8th(1981), 8th(1982)
Vladislav Tretiak – 6th(1980), 1st(1981), 1st(1982), 1st(1983), 2nd(1984)
Vladimir Krutov – 7th(1980), 2nd(1983), 5th(1984), 5th(1985), 2nd(1986), 1st(1987), 2nd((1988)
Marian Stastny – 8th(1980)
Pelle Lindbergh – 9th(1980)
Alexander Maltsev – 10th(1980), 2nd(1981)
Vladimir Martinec – 7th(1981)
Jiri Lala – 3rd(1981), 4th(1982), 3rd(1983), 4th(1985)
Peter Lindmark – 5th(1981), 3rd(1986), 5th(1988)
Milan Novy – 2nd(1982)
Viktor Shalimov – 3rd(1982)
Jiri Kralik – 9th(1982), 5th(1983), 1st(1985)
Igor Larionov – 6th(1983), 5th(1986), 4th(1988), 4th(1988)
Alexei Kasatonov – 9th(1983), 6th(1985), 9th(1986), 5th(1988)
Vyacheslav Fetisov – 10th(1983), 1st(1984), 3rd(1985), 4th(1986), 5th(1987), 1st(1988), 1st(1989)
Dominik Hasek – 3rd(1984), 3rd(1987), 2nd(1989)

I put together what I found on this site in other threads, as well as what I found in books.
It is interesting that there was barely any coverage of this award at all. I don't know exactly how many journalists voted each year,
but at least in 1982, 385 journalists voted.

1st place = 3 pts
2nd place = 2pts
3rd place = 1 pt


1978/79

1. Boris Mikhailov 435 pts


1979/80

1. Sergei Makarov 550 pts
2. Boris Mikhailov
3. Valeri Vasiliev
4.
5.
6. Vladislav Tretiak
7. Vladimir Krutov
8. Marian Stastny
9. Pelle Lindbergh
10. Aleksandr Maltsev


1980/81

1. Vladislav Tretiak 462 pts (119-51-3)
2. Aleksandr Maltsev 453 pts (115-54-0)
3. Jiri Lála 160 pts (27-31-17)
4. Sergei Makarov 151 pts (25-27-22)
5. Peter Lindmark 142 pts (25-24-9)
6.
7. Vladimir Martinec
8. Valeri Vasiliev


1981/82

1. Vladislav Tretiak 224 pts (61-11-19)
2. Milan Nový 217 pts (46-31-17)
3. Viktor Shalimov 191 pts (58-7-3)
4. Jiri Lála 175 pts (56-2-3)
5. Miroslav Dvorak 160 pts (24-27-34)
6. Sergei Makarov
7. Jiri Králik or 9th ?
8. Valeri Vasiliev
9.


1982/83

1. Vladislav Tretiak 346 pts (82-43-14)
2. Vladimir Krutov 214 pts (49-29-9)
3. Jiri Lála 195 pts (52-18-2)
4. Sergei Makarov 123 pts (26-19-7)
5. Jiri Králik 109 pts (22-14-15)
6. Igor Larionov
7.
8.
9. Alexei Kasatonov
10. Vyacheslav Fetisov


1983/84

1. Vyacheslav Fetisov 316 pts (96-10-8)
2. Vladislav Tretiak 182 pts (45-21-5)
3. Dominik Hasek 163 pts (28-36-7)
4. Sergei Makarov 124 pts (32-12-4)
5. Vladimir Krutov 86 pts (23-2-13)


1984/85

1. Jiri Králik 344 pts (102-17-4)
2. Sergei Makarov 313 pts (89-23-0)
3. Vyacheslav Fetisov 285 pts (62-17-5)
4. Jiri Lála 249 pts (37-64-10)
5. Vladimir Krutov 192 pts (23-51-21)
6. Alexei Kasatonov


1985/86

1. Sergei Makarov
2. Vladimir Krutov
3.
4. Vyacheslav Fetisov
5. Igor Larionov
6.
7.
8.
9. Alexei Kasatonov


1986/87

1. Vladimir Krutov
2.
3. Dominik Hasek
4. Sergei Makarov
5. Vyacheslav Fetisov


1987/88

1. Vyacheslav Fetisov
2. Vladimir Krutov
3. Sergei Makarov
4. Igor Larionov
5. Alexei Kasatonov


1988/89

1. Vyacheslav Fetisov
2. Dominik Hasek
3. Sergei Makarov
4. Igor Larionov


Maybe someone can fill in the gaps.
 

Sanf

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Pekka Lindmark was definitely goalie who played long career with high European level.

Still few things. Lindmarks path to international career was helped by Pelle Lindbergh leaving to NA. Lindbergh and Swedish coach Leif Boork apparently weren´t best friends which apparently was part of the reason why Lindbergh skipped 1984 Canada Cup.

Not sure if there were injuries in Lindmarks early career because he wasn´t in 1983 WHC´s or 1984 Olympics. Also he basically lost the starter job to Ridderwall already in 1989 so his career as #1 in national team was really from 1981-1983 and 1985-1989. Thats impressive, but not something unseen in international level.

And to the problem with the awards in European hockey (not only consider Lindmark). Lindmarks 1986 for example. He had great tournament in WHC´s. Due to this he is selected both the best goalie and All-Star goalies. Ofcourse this has strong effect on his Guldpucken award selection (my bad he didn´t win it that year). Similarly to Swedish All-Star team selection. Also third place in Golden Stick is probably due to that. International hockey ofcourse was the most important in European hockey, but still at the end it is relatively small sample size of games.
 
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Sentinel

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Krutov was not only ahead of Larionov during his 3-year peak. He was first a far superior junior player (77/78-79/80) and then considered the superior player for the majority of the 80´s. Krutov was miles ahead of Larionov both when it comes to Soviet player of the year voting and Izvestia golden stick voting. See the post above and also the post about the Soviet player of the year voting shares of the members of the Green Unit. Krutov was in other words considered to be far ahead of Larionov in their primes by most Soviet and European observers. Is Larionovs kind of longevity (a good player for a very long time outside his prime) really enough to make up for Krutovs big advantage in their primes? In my opinion it is not.

In my opinion it is. Krutov was relevant for ten seasons, Larionov for 24, including the jump into the new world that only he, Makarov, Nemchinov, and Kamensky were able to complete convincingly. Krutov and Larionov had one MVP each.

Plus I value other things, including originality and two way play. Larionov was viewed as "the brain" in that unit and thus was actually valued a little more by many Soviet Hockey fans. Krutov was viewed as more replaceable.
 
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Batis

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In my opinion it is. Krutov was relevant for ten seasons, Larionov for 24, including the jump into the new world that only he, Makarov, Nemchinov, and Kamensky were able to complete convincingly. Krutov has two Soviet MVPs, Larionov one, not too big of a gap.

Both Krutov and Larionov actually won the Soviet player of the year one time. But Krutovs overall voting record is far ahead of Larionovs. I´ll post it once again.

7 year average:
1. Sergei Makarov 0.551
2. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.456
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.388
4. Igor Larionov 0.144
5. Alexei Kasatonov 0.060

5 year average
1. Sergei Makarov 0.660
2. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.520
3. Vladimir Krutov 0.516
4. Igor Larionov 0.186
5. Alexei Kasatonov 0.073

3 year average
1. Sergei Makarov 0.747
2. Vladimir Krutov 0.630
3. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.558
4. Igor Larionov 0.260
5. Alexei Kasatonov 0.089

Krutovs 7 year average is far higher than Larionovs 3 year average. Krutovs 3 year average is higher than Larionovs best ever one season result. And as mentioned before the Izvestia Golden Stick voting record also suggests that Krutov was held in a much higher regard than Larionov. In fact when it comes to award voting Krutov was closer to Makarov than Larionov was to Krutov.
 

Robert Gordon Orr

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In my opinion it is. Krutov was relevant for ten seasons, Larionov for 24, including the jump into the new world that only he, Makarov, Nemchinov, and Kamensky were able to complete convincingly. Krutov has two Soviet MVPs, Larionov one, not too big of a gap.

Plus I value other things, including originality and two way play. Larionov was viewed as "the brain" in that unit and thus was actually valued a little more by many Soviet Hockey fans. Krutov was viewed as more replaceable.

Btw, I meant "Top 15", not 20. Sorry.


I can see both sides of the argument here. Larionov aged liked fine wine while Krutov went the opposite way, ending up a wreck. It is true that Larionov was a smart player, a fine playmaker who had a conservative style that prolonged his career. Krutov was a bit like a wrecking ball in his best moments. He took a lot of beating in front of the goal but was almost reckless in his pursuit of a goal or a good pass.

Larionov was the type of player you would like to have on the ice while being up one goal in the dying minutes, while Krutov was the guy you wanted on the ice with your team down one goal. Larionov’s accomplishments can’t be ignored, but strictly comparing the two in terms of their abilities and what they did internationally, my pick would be Krutov ahead of Larionov. He was a beast in his prime years. Larionov’s status grew after he came over to North America, but back in Europe I don’t see many who held Larionov in higher regard than Krutov. But I guess the best guys to evaluate this are the ones from Russia who were around at the time.

It would be interesting to hear their input. Krutov is easily a top 20 player IMO, while Larionov is a top 40 player.
Isn't it ironic that they both played their last games for Brunflo IK in the lower Swedish division 10 years apart ?
 

Sentinel

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What matters that they both won it once. Then add Larionov's three Stanley Cups and fifteen years of NHL relevance. To me, Larionov stands squarely above Krutov.

Also Larionov was a late bloomer anyway. Had he stayed in the USSR, I can see him winning another MVP before Bure, Mogilny, and Feds would take over. Krutov was done.
 

Batis

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Also Larionov was a late bloomer anyway. Had he stayed in the USSR, I can see him winning another MVP before Bure, Mogilny, and Feds would take over. Krutov was done.

Krutov was in my opinion slightly better than Larionov in their last season in the Soviet league in 88/89. And had they remained in the Soviet Union Krutovs decline would surely have been more gradual. Dont get me wrong Krutov was clearly declining at that point but he was still in my opinion a better player than Larionov in 88/89.
 
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Sentinel

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I saw them both in their CSKA heyday. I spoke to other fans. Everybody usually placed Larionov above Krutov. AAMOF many placed Larionov over Makarov, because his passing style was so appealing to an average hockey fan in Russia who grew up with Tarasov's notions of unit play. Not that Krutov or Makarov couldn't pass, mind you. And again: at their best Krutov was a better hockey player than Larionov. But he did it for nearly fifteen years less than Igor.
 

VMBM

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Plus I value other things, including originality and two way play. Larionov was viewed as "the brain" in that unit and thus was actually valued a little more by many Soviet Hockey fans. Krutov was viewed as more replaceable.

Well, it was Makarov and Krutov who mainly killed penalties on Team USSR throughout the 1980s, and, I would suspect, on CSKA too. So Larionov's defensive play couldn't have been so much superior. And Krutov certainly was no floater. Larionov was maybe slightly more consistent than Krutov during the early part of the 1980s, I'll give him that much.

And say what you will, but I don't think Krutov and Makarov really needed Larionov at all. Watch the 1985-86 Super Series games vs. the Oilers and the Canadiens, for example. It's Viktor Tyumenev centering Krutov and Makarov, and they are as devastating as ever. During the 1987 Canada Cup, Larionov wasn't any kind of factor, and yet Makarov and especially Krutov flourished. Not that Krutov (or even Makarov) was totally irreplaceable, but IMO Larionov, if anybody, could be replaced and the Green Unit wasn't any worse as a result.
This may sound controversial, but I think Krutov-Bykov-Makarov line could have been even more devastating than KLM.

What matters that they both won it once. Then add Larionov's three Stanley Cups and fifteen years of NHL relevance. To me, Larionov stands squarely above Krutov.

Errr, what?

Jaromir Jagr and Martin St. Louis have one Hart Trophy each; are their NHL careers equally good? Not maybe the best analogy there, but I really don't understand that statement at all. Of course their voting record should count too.

Krutov was way superior to Larionov, when they were both playing in Europe, it's just one of the facts of life; stats, All-Stars (USSR & WHC), MVP voting...
 
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VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
3,814
763
Helsinki, Finland
More on Ivan Hlinka

Interesting quote by the color guy Ken Dryden during the broadcast for game 2 of the 1976 Canada Cup final between CSSR and Canada:
Player that is going to have to play better if the Czechs are going to come back in this game is Ivan Hlinka, who <is> maybe their best individual hockey player and yet has not been a factor in this series or in the latter part of the tournament.
the link here

Of course, Dryden is basically criticizing Hlinka's play in the 1976 Canada Cup, but the bolded part is quite a compliment, considering that the team had Martinec, Novy, Pospisil, Jiri Holik and young Peter Stastny. Not that Dryden was an expert on CSSR hockey, but he had seen them play at least a little during and before (pre-tournament games) the 1976 CC, and also had played in goal for Team Canada when they faced Czechoslovakia in 1972 after the series vs. USSR.

In Hlinka bios, he is often been compared to Phil Esposito; big, strong in front of the net. But there was of course a non-Esposito like quality in his game too: speed & fast (counter) attacks. A few examples of that:

Hlinka's goal vs. USSR at the 1976 Olympics

Hlinka's goal vs. USSR at the 1976 World Championships(???)

Hlinka's brilliant set-up of Jiri Novak's goal vs. USSR in the 1977 World Championship final round game

By the way, that 1977 WHC game between USSR and Czechoslovakia has become one of my favourites; it really shows the both sides of pre-Tikhonov USSR: the sometimes sloppy defense that allows the Czechs to lead 4-0 already at 20:21, and the awesome offense so that the game is suddenly 4-3 at 29:07. Check e.g. the brilliant goal by (Mikhailov, Petrov and) Kharlamov where the play starts in front of their own goal. Amazingly, though, they are unable to score during the last 30 minutes or so, as Dzurilla and the co. hang on; a great group effort by Czechoslovakia.
 
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Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,542
4,946
Larionov was viewed as "the brain" in that unit and thus was actually valued a little more by many Soviet Hockey fans.

Then how do you explain their "Best Player of the Season" voting record?

1980: Krutov 68 pts (#2) vs Larionov 0 pts
1981: Krutov 2 pts (#11) vs Larionov 0 pts
1982: Larionov 20 pts (#6) vs Krutov 7 pts (#10)
1983: Krutov 111 pts (#2) vs Larionov 15 pts (#6)
1984: Krutov 18 pts (#8) vs Larionov 7 pts (#9)
1985: Krutov 18 pts (#7) vs Larionov 10 pts (#11)
1986: Krutov 126 pts (#3) vs Larionov 35 pts (#4)
1987: Krutov 263 pts (#1) vs Larionov 28 pts (#4)
1988: Larionov 142 pts (#1) vs Krutov 94 pts (#3)
1989: Krutov 11 pts (#5) vs Larionov 9 pts (#6)

This may sound controversial, but I think Krutov-Bykov-Makarov line could have been even more devastating than KLM.

Interesting. So you're going to have Bykov higher than Larionov?
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
12,854
4,707
New Jersey
www.vvinenglish.com
Then how do you explain their "Best Player of the Season" voting record?

1980: Krutov 68 pts (#2) vs Larionov 0 pts
1981: Krutov 2 pts (#11) vs Larionov 0 pts
1982: Larionov 20 pts (#6) vs Krutov 7 pts (#10)
1983: Krutov 111 pts (#2) vs Larionov 15 pts (#6)
1984: Krutov 18 pts (#8) vs Larionov 7 pts (#9)
1985: Krutov 18 pts (#7) vs Larionov 10 pts (#11)
1986: Krutov 126 pts (#3) vs Larionov 35 pts (#4)
1987: Krutov 263 pts (#1) vs Larionov 28 pts (#4)
1988: Larionov 142 pts (#1) vs Krutov 94 pts (#3)
1989: Krutov 11 pts (#5) vs Larionov 9 pts (#6)

I can't. Maybe because people often looked at stats (kinda like they do here ;)). My point comes just from talking to other hockey fans. Larionov was even being compared to Gretzky. Inexplicably.

Besides, I'm not debating that Krutov was better than Larionov in their (mostly overlapping) primes. But you cannot, I repeat, cannot completely dismiss Larionov's tremendous NHL success and Krutov's exceptional failure.
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
12,854
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New Jersey
www.vvinenglish.com
I've noticed that for whatever reason, the best European players from the 60s and 70s are usually ranked ahead of the best European players from the 80s on most traditional lists. I know most lists of the best Soviet players lists (outside of hfboards) usually have Kharlamov or Firsov as the top ranked forward, even though Makarov was more dominant against his contemporaries, in what was likely a stronger era than at least Firsov.

This is very true and has to do with traditions. Russians LOVE their sacred cows, and once something or someone becomes a part of their national myth, it is virtually impossible to remove it from there. All my attempts to convince people that Makarov was a better player than Bobrov, Kharlamov and Maltsev hit the brick wall, despite all evidence and stats.

50s and 60s was the time of first foreign success. 70s was the height of hockey power, coupled with relative social stability, missed by many. 80s was the time of hockey stagnation (league champion was known before championship began), social unrest, and is not missed by anybody. Hence the attitude.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
Interesting quote by the color guy Ken Dryden during the broadcast for game 2 of the 1976 Canada Cup final between CSSR and Canada:
the link here

Of course, Dryden is basically criticizing Hlinka's play in the 1976 Canada Cup, but the bolded part is quite a compliment, considering that the team had Martinec, Novy, Pospisil, Jiri Holik and young Peter Stastny. Not that Dryden was an expert on CSSR hockey, but he had seen them play at least a little during and before (pre-tournament games) the 1976 CC, and also had played in goal for Team Canada when they faced Czechoslovakia in 1972 after the series vs. USSR.

In Hlinka bios, he is often been compared to Phil Esposito; big, strong in front of the net. But there was of course a non-Esposito like quality in his game too: speed & fast (counter) attacks. A few examples of that:

Hlinka's goal vs. USSR at the 1976 Olympics

Hlinka's goal vs. USSR at the 1976 World Championships(???)

Hlinka's brilliant set-up of Jiri Novak's goal vs. USSR in the 1977 World Championship final round game

By the way, that 1977 WHC game between USSR and Czechoslovakia has become one of my favourites; it really shows the both sides of pre-Tikhonov USSR: the sometimes sloppy defense that allows the Czechs to lead 4-0 already at 20:21, and the awesome offense so that the game is suddenly 4-3 at 29:07. Check e.g. the brilliant goal by (Mikhailov, Petrov and) Kharlamov where the play starts in front of their own goal. Amazingly, though, they are unable to score during the last 30 minutes or so, as Dzurilla and the co. hang on; a great group effort by Czechoslovakia.

I just can't get over the All-Star voting, where Hlinka's name doesn't appear once.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=59792539&postcount=33

CSSR All Star Teams existed from 1969-1977 and 1988-1992
"Best Player" (at each position) was selected from 1977-1992

70s CSSR Forwards All Star/Best Forward awards

Milan Novy
  • All Star C (1975, 1976, 1977)
  • Best Forward (1977, 1978, 1981*, 1982*)

Vladimir Martinec
  • All Star RW (1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977)

Vaclav Nedomansky
  • All Star RW (1969)
  • All Star C (1970, 1971, 1973, 1974)

Jiri Holik
  • All Star LW (1969, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976)

Jaroslav Holik
  • All Star C (1969, 1972)

Josef Cerny
  • All Star LW (1970, 1971)

Jiri Kochta
  • All Star RW (1971, 1972)

Marian Stastny
  • Best Forward (1979)

Jan Hrbatý
  • All Star RW (1970)

Bohuslav Ebermann
  • All Star LW (1977)

*Some CSSR stars, led by the Stastnys had left for the NHL, so the league was at least somewhat watered down by this point.
 

Sprague Cleghorn

User Registered
Aug 14, 2013
3,516
504
Edmonton, KY
There hasn't been much talk of the 70s-90s Finnish stars. Which of these guys could make the list?

Matti Hagman (Best Finnish FW eligible? Also has best career Finnish league PPG by a huge margin)
Veli-Pekka Ketola (Scoring title trophy named after him. Won it twice)
Hannu Virta (4x Best D in the SM-liiga which is the most, though lacks international accolades for whatever reason)
Kari Jalonen (Looks like he has the best PPG in major international tourneys among contemporary Finns, including Kurri and Tikkanen)
Pekka Rautakallio (Best D award named after him and also won three Best D awards. Like Virta, he lacks international accolades)
Timo Jutila (The opposite of Rautakallio and Virta in that he lacks domestic awards but has plenty of WC All-Star Team selections)
 

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