HOH Top-50 Non-NHL Europeans Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

[Robert Gordon Orr]

No, that is the correct perspective.

Correct in your book, not mine. We all see it differently.
It is just a matter of opinion.

Exactly. Their "contemporaries" being the best players in the world at that time.

Well, I will judge the players based on their performance against their contemporaries in any given era, which is why I don't disregard the old timers. Players who were considered to be among the best players in Europe for many years before the war have as much value to me as a modern player with the same credentials.

The problem we are facing here is that very few have actually done any research on the European oldtimers, which will result in almost no one making the top 70 list. I will have quite a few on mine, but that is only because I've done that research. But it is all about having fun and maybe learn something about the players and appreciate what they did,

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Correct in your book, not mine. We all see it differently.
It is just a matter of opinion.



Well, I will judge the players based on their performance against their contemporaries in any given era, which is why I don't disregard the old timers. Players who were considered to be among the best players in Europe for many years before the war have as much value to me as a modern player with the same credentials.

The problem we are facing here is that very few have actually done any research on the European oldtimers, which will result in almost no one making the top 70 list. I will have quite a few on mine, but that is only because I've done that research. But it is all about having fun and maybe learn something about the players and appreciate what they did,

I think he meant contemporaries as not only his contemporaries in Europe but also in North America. For example, how would a guy like Malecek stack up to Shore, Morenz, Barry, Conacher, Seibert, Clapper, Schriner etc. rather than how would he only stack up to guys you mentioned like Ball, Hassler, de Rauch.

 

[seventieslord]

I think he meant contemporaries as not only his contemporaries in Europe but also in North America. For example, how would a guy like Malecek stack up to Shore, Morenz, Barry, Conacher, Seibert, Clapper, Schriner etc. rather than how would he only stack up to guys you mentioned like Ball, Hassler, de Rauch.

Exactly. And it boggles the mind that someone would want to consider only the latter and not the former.

If they did, wouldn't the best players of all-time easily be Malecek, Zabrodsky and Bobrov? They dominated their domestic leagues and international play like no one else that I can think of.

 

[VMBM]

I just can't get over the All-Star voting, where Hlinka's name doesn't appear once.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=59792539&postcount=33

CSSR All Star Teams existed from 1969-1977 and 1988-1992
"Best Player" (at each position) was selected from 1977-1992

70s CSSR Forwards All Star/Best Forward awards

Milan Novy

• All Star C (1975, 1976, 1977)
• Best Forward (1977, 1978, 1981*, 1982*)

Vladimir Martinec

• All Star RW (1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977)

Vaclav Nedomansky

• All Star RW (1969)
• All Star C (1970, 1971, 1973, 1974)

Jiri Holik

• All Star LW (1969, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976)

Jaroslav Holik

• All Star C (1969, 1972)

Josef Cerny

• All Star LW (1970, 1971)

Jiri Kochta

• All Star RW (1971, 1972)

Marian Stastny

• Best Forward (1979)

Jan Hrbatý

• All Star RW (1970)

Bohuslav Ebermann

• All Star LW (1977)

*Some CSSR stars, led by the Stastnys had left for the NHL, so the league was at least somewhat watered down by this point.

It almost looks to me like the top scorer in the Czechoslovak league was automatically chosen as the 'best forward'??? At least 1977-83 (the lone exception being 1980). Was it that international play had no effect whatsoever? Thus a non-national team players like Jozef Bukovinsky and Ladislav Gula could be the top dman and goalie in 1979 and 1981, respectively. And thus Novy did so well, since he was nearly always among the top scorers in the domestic league - often #1.

The All-Star selections are a little harder to analyse. For example, if it was just about the league play/scoring, then Ivan Hlinka should have been the obvious choice for the All-Stars in 1975; he led the league in scoring by 10 points (78 to Novy's 68). Then again, in 1975, Hlinka also did strangely poorly in the Golden Stick voting. In any case, Hlinka got the Golden Stick in 1978, even though he wasn't the 'Best forward' in that year either, heh. It seems that the All-Star berth at the 1978 WHC (Novy wasn't much of a factor in the tournament) helped him to get the MVP award. I might be over-analyzing here, though, forgive me

I think it is fair to say that the center position in Czechoslovakia was a little bit deeper than in Soviet Union, so Hlinka had tough competition - first Nedomansky, then Novy and young Peter Stastny. But based on these selections, obviously we have to conclude that Novy was considered the top Czechoslovak center (post Nedomansky's departure) in the mid-1970s.

It's a little frustrating that there's that break between 1978 and 1987 (All-Stars) and that the best player by position selections started only in 1977. It doesn't make this existing information meaningless, but it makes it feel a little fragmented, nevertheless. Namely, if international play played any part in the All-Star selections, then I think Hlinka could have very well been the All-Star center in 1978 at least. This is only speculation (or an educated guess), of course.

If we put much emphasis on these, then Novy should be close to Martinec, right? A much better domestic scorer and was a 3-time best forward in Czechoslovakia over him (1977-81). And these selections also make the choices of the Czech experts (the aforementioned poll in 1998) look even more strange, since apparently Novy was very respected in Czechoslovakia in his time.

All in all, I don't know what to make of this. In my mind, Nedomansky and Martinec were cleary above Novy and Hlinka is at least somewhere close to Novy. Are there any Czech or Slovak posters who could shed some light, i.e. how were these players were viewed (vis-à-vis each other) back in the 1970s? Also, some extra information about the Czechoslovak league play would be appreciated. Did Czechoslovak people generally care much more about international play or were the heroics in the domestic league also rated highly?

 

[VMBM]

There hasn't been much talk of the 70s-90s Finnish stars. Which of these guys could make the list?

Matti Hagman (Best Finnish FW eligible? Also has best career Finnish league PPG by a huge margin)
Veli-Pekka Ketola (Scoring title trophy named after him. Won it twice)
Hannu Virta (4x Best D in the SM-liiga which is the most, though lacks international accolades for whatever reason)
Kari Jalonen (Looks like he has the best PPG in major international tourneys among contemporary Finns, including Kurri and Tikkanen)
Pekka Rautakallio (Best D award named after him and also won three Best D awards. Like Virta, he lacks international accolades)
Timo Jutila (The opposite of Rautakallio and Virta in that he lacks domestic awards but has plenty of WC All-Star Team selections)

Of those, I'm considering Hagman and Ketola (for top 70, if not top 50). Also, Lasse Oksanen (a long-time star forward in the 1960s/1970s) and Pekka Marjamäki, whose international career was more impressive than e.g. Rautakallio's, the highlight being the all-star selection & best dman award at the 1975 World Championships, and who was a 3-time all-star in the domestic league.

I haven't given much thought to Kari Jalonen, and I can't even explain why. Maybe because he didn't play that many big international tournaments (7, I think?), but certainly his domestic numbers are very respectable, and he still holds the record for most points a season in the Finnish elite league; 93 points in 44 games in 1987 - even though Matti Hagman's 87 in 35 (1980) is even more impressive. I think Hagman (who doesn't have a glorious interntl career either) was a somewhat better player too.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Exactly. And it boggles the mind that someone would want to consider only the latter and not the former.

You see, we just have different approaches to it. In my world it boggles my mind that when doing an all-time best list of Europeans that you would mix in comparisons with players who were playing in another continent. The NHL'ers have nothing to do with the European players, leagues or tournaments. Just a different approach, that's all.

I am looking at the project from a strictly European perspective, keeping the North American players out of it and any comparison to them.
Since no Europeans played in the NHL with any regularity until the 1970s we can’t say for sure that the best European players in the 1930s or 40s for example wouldn’t do fairly well in the NHL if given an honest chance with quality minutes and quality teammates, as well as proper adjustment to the North American game.
If I would be preoccupied with the NHL’ers, then I would put Marek Malik with his 33 NHL goals ahead of Zábrodsky and Viktor Nechaev with his one NHL goal ahead of Bobrov.

Both Malik and Nechaev rubbed shoulders with Wayne Gretzky in the NHL, but we have no idea if the Maleceks, Zabrodskys and Bobrovs would be able to rub shoulders with Shore, Morenz and Howe if given the chance. Just because Malik and Nechaev played in the NHL does not make them any better players than Zabrodsky or Bobrov.

So as I see it, approximately 20-25% of the European All-time greats came from the pre war era. I look at what they accomplished internationally on the European stage, their longevity among the Europe’s best in their respective era, and what the contemporary newspapers said about them when they were active.
To compare these guys to Shore, Morenz, Howe, Harvey, Orr, Lemieux or Gretzky is completely irrelevant to me. It has nothing to do with how they did among their peers in Europe.

 

[Theokritos]

You see, we just have different approaches to it. In my world it boggles my mind that when doing an all-time best list of Europeans that you would mix in comparisons with players who were playing in another continent. The NHL'ers have nothing to do with the European players, leagues or tournaments.

Many here consider closeness or distance to the best in the world as a decisive parameter. That's why we like to aim for comparisons across the Atlantic.

Since no Europeans played in the NHL with any regularity until the 1970s we can’t say for sure that the best European players in the 1930s or 40s for example wouldn’t do fairly well in the NHL if given an honest chance with quality minutes and quality teammates, as well as proper adjustment to the North American game.

It's true we can't say it with certainty, but fact of the matter is that second-to-fourth rate teams from Canada (clearly below NHL level) handled the best Europe had to offer with relative ease prior to WW2. The first genuinely European teams who were good enough to challenge those Canadians were the Czechoslovaks in the late 1940s and then the Soviets starting in the 1950s. Therefore their oustanding players (most notably Zábrodský and Bobrov) will most likely be the oldest players among the locks to make our top 50. The next step of improvement comes in the 1960s when the Soviets start to dominate international hockey and the Czechoslovaks and Swedes pull ahead of the Canadian national team. Is it unreasonable to assume that the best European teams and players from that time were closer to the best in the world than the generation before? Kharlamov was one of the best in the world in his time, no doubt, we know what he was capable of when competing against NHL players and NHL teams. Firsov? More difficult, but there's enough overlap with Kharlamov to make a reasonable assumption. Bobrov? It gets more difficult. Maleček? Even harder.

If I would be preoccupied with the NHL’ers, then I would put Marek Malik with his 33 NHL goals ahead of Zábrodsky and Viktor Nechaev with his one NHL goal ahead of Bobrov.

Both Malik and Nechaev rubbed shoulders with Wayne Gretzky in the NHL, but we have no idea if the Maleceks, Zabrodskys and Bobrovs would be able to rub shoulders with Shore, Morenz and Howe if given the chance. Just because Malik and Nechaev played in the NHL does not make them any better players than Zabrodsky or Bobrov.

No-one is using the NHL argument to put Maleček, Zábrodský and Bobrov below Malík (let alone Nechayev). It's used to put Kharlamov, Martinec and Fetisov ahead of Maleček, Zábrodský and Bobrov.

 

[Sanf]

I guess you need to be European to understand the other view. It did feel kind of disrespecting your own hockey roots to leave the early players complitely off (I know I would have had ~3-5 of those on my list, though not as many as "Bobby" Orr have) . Thats why I was kind of hoping splitting this to two different projects. Though I did not see that very realistic.

I knew already few months ago that I can´t participate to this project so at this point it really is none of my business . I guess I´m hoping that diversity of opinions is allowed. Afraid that the screening process already starts to guide this towards "the right opinion" ...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It almost looks to me like the top scorer in the Czechoslovak league was automatically chosen as the 'best forward'??? At least 1977-83 (the lone exception being 1980). Was it that international play had no effect whatsoever? Thus a non-national team players like Jozef Bukovinsky and Ladislav Gula could be the top dman and goalie in 1979 and 1981, respectively. And thus Novy did so well, since he was nearly always among the top scorers in the domestic league - often #1.

The All-Star selections are a little harder to analyse. For example, if it was just about the league play/scoring, then Ivan Hlinka should have been the obvious choice for the All-Stars in 1975; he led the league in scoring by 10 points (78 to Novy's 68). Then again, in 1975, Hlinka also did strangely poorly in the Golden Stick voting. In any case, Hlinka got the Golden Stick in 1978, even though he wasn't the 'Best forward' in that year either, heh. It seems that the All-Star berth at the 1978 WHC (Novy wasn't much of a factor in the tournament) helped him to get the MVP award. I might be over-analyzing here, though, forgive me

I think it is fair to say that the center position in Czechoslovakia was a little bit deeper than in Soviet Union, so Hlinka had tough competition - first Nedomansky, then Novy and young Peter Stastny. But based on these selections, obviously we have to conclude that Novy was considered the top Czechoslovak center (post Nedomansky's departure) in the mid-1970s.

It's a little frustrating that there's that break between 1978 and 1987 (All-Stars) and that the best player by position selections started only in 1977. It doesn't make this existing information meaningless, but it makes it feel a little fragmented, nevertheless. Namely, if international play played any part in the All-Star selections, then I think Hlinka could have very well been the All-Star center in 1978 at least. This is only speculation (or an educated guess), of course.

If we put much emphasis on these, then Novy should be close to Martinec, right? A much better domestic scorer and was a 3-time best forward in Czechoslovakia over him (1977-81). And these selections also make the choices of the Czech experts (the aforementioned poll in 1998) look even more strange, since apparently Novy was very respected in Czechoslovakia in his time.

All in all, I don't know what to make of this. In my mind, Nedomansky and Martinec were cleary above Novy and Hlinka is at least somewhere close to Novy. Are there any Czech or Slovak posters who could shed some light, i.e. how were these players were viewed (vis-à-vis each other) back in the 1970s? Also, some extra information about the Czechoslovak league play would be appreciated. Did Czechoslovak people generally care much more about international play or were the heroics in the domestic league also rated highly?

It very well could be the the All-Star and "Best Player" awards were based simply on domestic play, while the Czech Golden Stick (different from Izvestia Golden Stick) counted both domestic and international play.

 

[seventieslord]

You see, we just have different approaches to it. In my world it boggles my mind that when doing an all-time best list of Europeans that you would mix in comparisons with players who were playing in another continent. The NHL'ers have nothing to do with the European players, leagues or tournaments. Just a different approach, that's all.

I am looking at the project from a strictly European perspective, keeping the North American players out of it and any comparison to them.

So Bobrov, Malecek and Zabrodsky 1-2-3 in some order then? If not, why?

Since no Europeans played in the NHL with any regularity until the 1970s we can’t say for sure that the best European players in the 1930s or 40s for example wouldn’t do fairly well in the NHL if given an honest chance with quality minutes and quality teammates, as well as proper adjustment to the North American game.

No, but we can make very educated guesses based on how they compared to Canadians in international tournaments and how those canadians compared to NHLers.

If I would be preoccupied with the NHL’ers, then I would put Marek Malik with his 33 NHL goals ahead of Zábrodsky and Viktor Nechaev with his one NHL goal ahead of Bobrov.

No one is saying you should do that. Malik was very, very far away from the best players in the world in his era, much further than Zabrodsky and Bobrov were.

Both Malik and Nechaev rubbed shoulders with Wayne Gretzky in the NHL, but we have no idea if the Maleceks, Zabrodskys and Bobrovs would be able to rub shoulders with Shore, Morenz and Howe if given the chance. Just because Malik and Nechaev played in the NHL does not make them any better players than Zabrodsky or Bobrov.

No one is saying being in the NHL automatically makes them better. We are saying that the standard for greatness should be how good the player was compared to the greatest in the world in their time. Being in the NHL would make the comparison easier, but it is not required.

So as I see it, approximately 20-25% of the European All-time greats came from the pre war era. I look at what they accomplished internationally on the European stage, their longevity among the Europe’s best in their respective era, and what the contemporary newspapers said about them when they were active.

I look forward to seeing what their contemporary newspapers say.

To compare these guys to Shore, Morenz, Howe, Harvey, Orr, Lemieux or Gretzky is completely irrelevant to me. It has nothing to do with how they did among their peers in Europe.

You don't even have to compare them to players of that caliber. Just knowing how close they were to a Cooney Weiland, Ed Litzenberger or Bill Goldsworthy in their era is likely going to be sufficient for most players past the top-20.

If you plan on ranking 20-25 pre-WW2 players then what you're going to ultimately do is rank dozens of players who likely were not even among the top 500 in the world over dozens who were in the top-100 in the world in much more competitive eras with deeper talent pools.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I guess you need to be European to understand the other view. It did feel kind of disrespecting your own hockey roots to leave the early players complitely off (I know I would have had ~3-5 of those on my list, though not as many as "Bobby" Orr have) . Thats why I was kind of hoping splitting this to two different projects. Though I did not see that very realistic.

I knew already few months ago that I can´t participate to this project so at this point it really is none of my business .

That's disappointing.

I guess I´m hoping that diversity of opinions is allowed. Afraid that the screening process already starts to guide this towards "the right opinion" ...

Sigh. I don't know why some posters still have such a misguided view of the screening process.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

And 70s, I think you are overestimating just how dominant Bobrov was. Domestically at least, Guryshev and Shuvalov weren't that far behind him.

See Table of top 3 finishes in the Soviet League (Edit: I'm 95% sure that those stats are based off goal totals only, as assists don't seem to be recorded for all players in the Soviet league until 1970. But I don't think Bobrov was really noted as a playmaker).

 

[Sanf]

Sigh. I don't know why some posters still have such a misguided view of the screening process.

I have tried to make list for a few projects and failed miserably. I´m not that much of list maker. So I can openly admit that I have basically know idea how the screening process works.

I just raised that up because it sometimes seems that in HOH community there is already pretty strong opininoins how the players should be ranked. I understand that you have made lot of best lists and there are the draft games too. If this project is going to have Europeans especially outside the HOH those lists might differ lot from that. And I really mean a lot

But I trust your word that my concerns were unnecessary

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Is it unreasonable to assume that the best European teams and players from that time were closer to the best in the world than the generation before? Kharlamov was one of the best in the world in his time, no doubt, we know what he was capable of when competing against NHL players and NHL teams. Firsov? More difficult, but there's enough overlap with Kharlamov to make a reasonable assumption. Bobrov? It gets more difficult. Maleček? Even harder.

Yes, it is tough to rank them across the eras.
Guys like Sergei Kapustin and Helmut Balderis were two very good players in the 1970s and early 80s. Some will probably have them on their top 70 list, even though I don’t believe many people would rank them ahead of their own teammates like Petrov, Maltsev, Mikhailov, Kharlamov and Yakushev.
They were good, but not the best in their era.
Then you have two guys like Jaroslav Jirkovský and Franz Lange, probably the two best sharpshooters of the early years. Jirkovský scored close to 500 goals in around 300 games and was a multiple scoring champion in the European Championships. The same goes for Lange who scored 300 goals in 150 games and was a three time scoring champion. They were top players in Europe at the time, yet no one (or very few) have ever heard their names.
Would you pick Kapustin/Balderis ahead of Jirkovský/Lange ?
I guess the answer depends on the approach one takes of this project.

I guess you need to be European to understand the other view. It did feel kind of disrespecting your own hockey roots to leave the early players complitely off (I know I would have had ~3-5 of those on my list, though not as many as "Bobby" Orr have) . Thats why I was kind of hoping splitting this to two different projects. Though I did not see that very realistic.
I knew already few months ago that I can´t participate to this project so at this point it really is none of my business . I guess I´m hoping that diversity of opinions is allowed. Afraid that the screening process already starts to guide this towards "the right opinion" ...

Yes, I totally agree with you. The most fair way to do it would be to split it up in pre and post war lists. Now we will end up totally disregarding all the players in European hockey for the first 50 years.
Too bad that you will not participate in this project because you seem to be one of the few who actually have some knowledge about the players across all eras, a rare quality.

If you plan on ranking 20-25 pre-WW2 players then what you're going to ultimately do is rank dozens of players who likely were not even among the top 500 in the world over dozens who were in the top-100 in the world in much more competitive eras with deeper talent pools.

I will base my list on how the players stacked up against other European players.
By how many goals do you think the NHL teams of the 1920s and 30s would lose against todays NHL teams ? by 20 or 30 goals ? and is that making Shore, Morenz, Lalonde or Malone worse players than a Toews, Tavares, Seguin, Giroux, Stamkos and so on.
This is the last that I will say on this issue.
As long as you yourself will be happy with your choices, that’s all that matters.

 

[DN28]

Bohumil Modry is another player who deserve some recognition. It´s hard to find anything on him other than a fact that he was the 1st goalie who was labeled as the best goalie in Europe. Every historian or journalist writes about him how great he was and I think he´s the only goalie before Seth Martin who really shined in international competition and made name for himself.
There is an awful lot of bad luck surrounding his carreer. He started as young talented goalie in WC 1937. In WC 1938 which was held in Prague he actually set the best performance of the team that took bronze medal, beating Nazi Germany in the last match 3:0 (underrated game comparative to those 2 games Czechoslovakia vs. CCCP in 1969). WW2 stole a large portion of his carreer but he was important piece of that golden Czechoslovak team in 1947, 48, 49. He was 2nd best player on those teams right after Zabrodsky (about whom I´ll post something soon).
After 1948 Modry got a serious offer to play professionally in the NHL. I couldn´t find the name of the team but everyone writes that he was going to Canada (so Montreal or Toronto I guess). Modry wanted to play there but didn´t want to defect, he got promise from Minister of information (or whatever that was..) Vaclav Kopecky that he will be able to legally leave and play in Canada after WC 1949 in Stockholm. After another gold medal however his departure was rejected and Modry decided to stop playing for national team as a protest. Few months later he was captured and charged of being spy and traitor and was made as a leading figure of "conspirators". Most of the players from WC 1949 were tortured and sent to prison. Modry got 15 years, was released after 5 years in uranium mines and died few years later as his body was already damaged enough working with radioactive materials.
Only statistics available are GAA from his 6 WC´s (42 games / 54 g. allowed --> 1.29) and 15 shutouts. So basically every 3rd game he played ended up with 0 goals allowed..
I really think he´s worth at least a discussion for TOP 50 otherwise our list will end up with goalies only from 70´s on. He belongs among the very best players before 70´s - Malecek, Zabrodsky, Bobrov, Sologubov, Ragulin and Sven Tumba.

 

[Doctor No]

Nice call on Modry - very underrated in my opinion, and what a sad story post-career.

 

[DN28]

Then you have two guys like Jaroslav Jirkovský and Franz Lange, probably the two best sharpshooters of the early years. Jirkovský scored close to 500 goals in around 300 games and was a multiple scoring champion in the European Championships. The same goes for Lange who scored 300 goals in 150 games and was a three time scoring champion. They were top players in Europe at the time, yet no one (or very few) have ever heard their names.
Would you pick Kapustin/Balderis ahead of Jirkovský/Lange ?
I guess the answer depends on the approach one takes of this project.

I know that Lange and Jirkovsky are probably two best players pre-WW1, although Jirkovsky played a lot even after the war..
The problem with this is that Jirkovsky (and with Lange it is probably the same) was just a good athlete who played a lot of sports. And in winter for a few days when it was cold enough he went to frozen pond and play hockey. That´s basically it. Most of the guys didn´t have hockey as the main sport but rather a fun activity for winter. Even after the WW1 all best hockey players didn´t play just hockey. Malecek and Zabrodsky played tennis, Modry played handball, Bobrov soccer... First artificial hockey rink in Czechoslovakia was built in 1931. Before that there were winters too warm that in some seasons czech players played only few games in European Championship.
On the other hand, I also hope that other people don´t completely dismiss the 1st 50-60 years of european hockey.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Re: pre-WW2 Europeans

In projects of this format, I have always taken the position that the harder to evaluate or more "mysterious" players who may or may not belong should be given something of a benefit of the doubt in Round 1 of voting, simply to allow us to have the opportunity to discuss them in Round 2. If the case made in Round 2 isn't strong enough, we can always leave them out then.

The point of Round 1 voting is to get a good rough starting point, so candidates for the 2nd and final round of voting appear at about the right time.

That said, I'm not just going to add any pre-WW2 European, nor am I going to have 20+ of them on my list. Malecek (and Modry if he counts)... sure, let's discuss them in Round 2. I do hope to see cases made for more of the guys RGO has mentioned, however.

 

[VMBM]

about Martinec

I have no specific interest to 'sell' Martinec here (he's a consensus choice for top 20, right??), but since he is my favourite player, I have naturally followed him somewhat more closely than many other players. One exceptional skill I have noticed was his ability to steal pucks. Some proof:

1972 World Championships, vs. USSR, Martinec steals the puck in his own zone and sets up Nedomansky for Czecholovakia’s first goal

1976 Olympics, vs. USSR, Martinec steals the puck from Viktor Shalimov and makes a play

1976 Canada Cup, vs. USSR, Martinec steals the puck from Skvortsov and passes it to Novak (don’t listen to the commentary, it’s totally out of sync = irritating!)

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (RR)

- during Canada’s PP, Martinec strips Bill Barber of the puck and clears
- Lapointe mishandles the puck, and Martinec smells blood quickly & gets a great scoring chance

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (final, G1), Martinec just takes the puck from Savard

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (final, G2), Martinec steals the puck from Lapointe

1978 World Championships, vs. USSR (final round), Martinec steals the puck during Soviet PP, and has a breakaway (controversy follows)

One thing that I hadn’t paid much attention previously is Martinec’s strength. Only when I saw it mentioned in a Finnish sports book (a mention of Martinec 'manhandling' Ragulin!), I realized that yes, he was a strong player at least for his size, which maybe separated him from e.g. another small 'master technician', Vladimir Vikulov of USSR. Some demonstrations of that:

1976 Canada Cup, vs. USSR
- Martinec bumps Bilyaletdinov off the puck, sets up Bohuslav Stastny for Czechoslovakia’s 4th goal (again, don’t pay attention to the commentary)
- Martinec shows good strength (with the puck) on the boards during Czechoslovakia’s PP (see above about the commentary)

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (RR), Martinec checks Reggie Leach for a good defensive effort

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (final, G2) Martinec strips Bobby Orr of the puck, shows good strength on the boards

 

[seventieslord]

I will base my list on how the players stacked up against other European players.
By how many goals do you think the NHL teams of the 1920s and 30s would lose against todays NHL teams ? by 20 or 30 goals ?

why is that relevant? I mean yeah, I think if you time warp teams from 90 years ago into today's world they get creamed, and Eddie Shore probably can't play in the AHL, but that's beside the point.

I think I know what you're trying to say, but it's not the same thing at all. Shore/Morenz/Cook are like today's Keith/Crosby/Ovechkin (because both are among the 1-2 best in the world at their position), but that doesn't mean that (insert three pre-WW2 europeans who you feel were the best) are like Kharlamov, Tretiak and Vasiliev from the 70s. The latter were among the best 5 in the world at their position, the former may not have been in the top-200. This does matter.

Re: pre-WW2 Europeans

In projects of this format, I have always taken the position that the harder to evaluate or more "mysterious" players who may or may not belong should be given something of a benefit of the doubt in Round 1 of voting, simply to allow us to have the opportunity to discuss them in Round 2. If the case made in Round 2 isn't strong enough, we can always leave them out then.

The point of Round 1 voting is to get a good rough starting point, so candidates for the 2nd and final round of voting appear at about the right time.

That said, I'm not just going to add any pre-WW2 European, nor am I going to have 20+ of them on my list. Malecek (and Modry if he counts)... sure, let's discuss them in Round 2. I do hope to see cases made for more of the guys RGO has mentioned, however.

I agree with all this.

By the way, about Bobrov, yeah I realize that Shuvalov and Guryshev were similar scorers domestically but neither is remembered as fondly as him, and he was also quite old already when the Soviets hit the international stage (31 at the 1954 worlds). Then again, so was Shuvalov.

Anyway, he did outscore them both internationally by wide margins, which may have everything to do with why he's rememered so much more fondly.

The point still stands that if RGO's list is consistent with his way of thinking, then he should easily have Malecek and Zabrodsky as 1 and 2, right? I can't think of anyone who dominated Europe like those two, never mind the competition level.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

I think I know what you're trying to say, but it's not the same thing at all. Shore/Morenz/Cook are like today's Keith/Crosby/Ovechkin (because both are among the 1-2 best in the world at their position), but that doesn't mean that (insert three pre-WW2 europeans who you feel were the best) are like Kharlamov, Tretiak and Vasiliev from the 70s. The latter were among the best 5 in the world at their position, the former may not have been in the top-200. This does matter.

I hear you and it’s a valid point, but then I would have to rank a guy like Victor Rask of Anaheim, who finished 199th in NHL-scoring last year (top 200-250 guy in the world ?) on par with European legends (of their time) like Jirkovský, Lange, the Cattini brothers, Jaenecke (guys that you believe might not have been in the top 200 back then). I guess it’s not perfect either way.
I choose to give some credit to the giants of early European hockey.
If I wouldn’t, then a project like this would be completely meaningless to me.
Hopefully people can concentrate on their candidates and be confident with the choices.

I have no specific interest to 'sell' Martinec here (he's a consensus choice for top 20, right??), but since he is my favourite player, I have naturally followed him somewhat more closely than many other players. One exceptional skill I have noticed was his ability to steal pucks. Some proof:

That’s a good observation. I think this skill can largely be attributed to his smartness.
He had that underrated gift of reading the plays and anticipate where the puck was going.
We all know that he had that playfulness and creativity, never afraid to improvise.

One thing that I hadn’t paid much attention previously is Martinec’s strength. Only when I saw it mentioned in a Finnish sports book (a mention of Martinec 'manhandling' Ragulin!), I realized that yes, he was a strong player at least for his size, which maybe separated him from e.g. another small 'master technician', Vladimir Vikulov of USSR. Some demonstrations of that:

I have never thought of that before, or perceived Martinec as being particularly strong, but maybe he was stronger than one would think. Martinec himself (in his autobiography) said that he hated the physical training, but he also pointed out that the national team coaches Gut and Starsi really drilled their players hard in the physical department. I agree with you by the way that Martinec is a top 20 guy.

The point still stands that if RGO's list is consistent with his way of thinking, then he should easily have Malecek and Zabrodsky as 1 and 2, right? I can't think of anyone who dominated Europe like those two, never mind the competition level.

Well, we could of course put Malecek and Zabrodsky in the same category as a top 200-250 player in the world today (Possible world ranking for Malecek and Zabrodsky at the time ?, below the NHL’ers). So I would probably have to rank them somewhere in the Jiri Tlusty range then.
But I think we’ve discussed this enough already. No one is going to change their view on this.
So let us concentrate on the task in hand instead.

 

[Pominville Knows]

I think Seventieslord by mistake took the exact same stance as Bobby there. The question here is if the best early players really can just be considered on par with the best from the eighties. Which they most probably cant becouse hockey was a much smaller sport back then in Europe. At least if an individual did not totally lap the field.

 

[MXD]

You see, we just have different approaches to it. In my world it boggles my mind that when doing an all-time best list of Europeans that you would mix in comparisons with players who were playing in another continent. The NHL'ers have nothing to do with the European players, leagues or tournaments. Just a different approach, that's all.

I am looking at the project from a strictly European perspective, keeping the North American players out of it and any comparison to them.
Since no Europeans played in the NHL with any regularity until the 1970s we can’t say for sure that the best European players in the 1930s or 40s for example wouldn’t do fairly well in the NHL if given an honest chance with quality minutes and quality teammates, as well as proper adjustment to the North American game.
If I would be preoccupied with the NHL’ers, then I would put Marek Malik with his 33 NHL goals ahead of Zábrodsky and Viktor Nechaev with his one NHL goal ahead of Bobrov.

Both Malik and Nechaev rubbed shoulders with Wayne Gretzky in the NHL, but we have no idea if the Maleceks, Zabrodskys and Bobrovs would be able to rub shoulders with Shore, Morenz and Howe if given the chance. Just because Malik and Nechaev played in the NHL does not make them any better players than Zabrodsky or Bobrov.

So as I see it, approximately 20-25% of the European All-time greats came from the pre war era. I look at what they accomplished internationally on the European stage, their longevity among the Europe’s best in their respective era, and what the contemporary newspapers said about them when they were active.
To compare these guys to Shore, Morenz, Howe, Harvey, Orr, Lemieux or Gretzky is completely irrelevant to me. It has nothing to do with how they did among their peers in Europe.

... Under this angle, the best European of alltime could very well be a certain "British Subject" who made quite a splash during the 1924 Olympics.

 

[Theokritos]

... Under this angle, the best European of alltime could very well be a certain "British Subject" who made quite a splash during the 1924 Olympics.

Are you referring to Harry Watson?

 

[seventieslord]

I think Seventieslord by mistake took the exact same stance as Bobby there. The question here is if the best early players really can just be considered on par with the best from the eighties. Which they most probably cant becouse hockey was a much smaller sport back then in Europe. At least if an individual did not totally lap the field.

I am not taking his stance, I am giving it a thorough critical analysis. I am hoping that he sees how ridiculous it would be to consider the best from the early 80s to be just as good as the best from the 30s.