Hey Terry, Do Us A Favor and SELL

[slip]

The Pegula influence has always been overblown. The few times he has gotten involved, it’s been obvious, clumsy and blown up in his face fairly quickly.

1) Impulsively hiring LaFontaine
2) Flat management structure with Krueger.

The irony about the flat management structure is that idea came from the Bills set up. Where McDermott and Beane both reporting directly to Pegula. He thought he had his McD for the Sabres in Krueger. It works for the Bills because they're good at their jobs and work well together. It was a complete mess with the Sabres because Krueger was horrible.

They have a president of hockey ops and GM set up in all but name with Adams/Karmanos.

You’re completely downplaying the Pegulas day to day involvement in the hockey team. The greatest owner of companies in the world, Warren Buffet, communicates with his CEO’s once a year. That’s all he needs because he understands his limitations but recognizes what counts is the bottom line.

There is zero need for Pegula to communicate daily with his GM. Zero. A good oil and gas billionaire who owns a trophy sports team should interact as little as possible with managers of a business he knows nothing about, but he should hold them accountable for the bottom line. The Pegulas have it completely ass backwards with the Sabres: excessive day to day meddling, and zero accountability. I submit 13 futile seasons as evidence.

 

[Jim Bob]

The Pegula influence has always been overblown. The few times he has gotten involved, it’s been obvious, clumsy and blown up in his face fairly quickly.

1) Impulsively hiring LaFontaine
2) Flat management structure with Krueger.

The irony about the flat management structure is that idea came from the Bills set up. Where McDermott and Beane both reporting directly to Pegula. He thought he had his McD for the Sabres in Krueger. It works for the Bills because they're good at their jobs and work well together. It was a complete mess with the Sabres because Krueger was horrible.

They have a president of hockey ops and GM set up in all but name with Adams/Karmanos.

There has been plenty of smoke that Terry has involved himself in various player personnel decisions over the years, as well. From the Leino/Ehrhoff signings to the Taylor Hall signing to the decision to not move Girgensons at the deadline this year.

And I disagree that Karmanos is the real GM of the team and Adams is the Pres of Hockey Ops. Adams runs the ship like a GM in most places does. He just is more open to input from all members of his staff than some. and perhaps most, GMs are.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

As much as organizational structure and charts matter, it really doesn't when the people you hire to fill them are consistently shown to be incompetents, pretenders and grifters.

 

[TehDoak]

The Pegula influence has always been overblown. The few times he has gotten involved, it’s been obvious, clumsy and blown up in his face fairly quickly.

1) Impulsively hiring LaFontaine
2) Flat management structure with Krueger.

The irony about the flat management structure is that idea came from the Bills set up. Where McDermott and Beane both reporting directly to Pegula. He thought he had his McD for the Sabres in Krueger. It works for the Bills because they're good at their jobs and work well together. It was a complete mess with the Sabres because Krueger was horrible.

They have a president of hockey ops and GM set up in all but name with Adams/Karmanos.

There are several key moments over the past few years that are head scratchers that are really only well explained by someone on the other end of the phone shouting "I don't care, get it done now"

1. Leino signing. "The best forward won't sign with us, get me the 2nd best forward". Completely out of character for Regier regime, on point for someone who just wanted to make a big splash.
2. The O'Reilly trade. By all accounts, GMJB seemed willing to wait until his bonus was paid and then trade him and get more value, but at the last minute, hours before his bonus was due, a trade that actually cost us more in cap space was shoved through. Like an owner who was hurt by O'Reilly's comments and would rather take less than pay him another dime.
3. The Skinner deal. That wasn't a negotiation, that was a "I want to leave but if you pay me this I'll stay" deal. Say what you will about GMJB, we've heard multiple reports he didn't want to give him that deal. It was stupidly over market at the time (Skinner got a trifecta of Term + Heavy signing bonus + NMC) at a time he likely would have only gotten 1 out of 3 going to market. It only makes sense when there is an angry, impatient voice on the other end saying "I don't care get it done"

And there are other things as well, but by all accounts, the Pegulas have a much more active and influential role in the front office of the Sabres than they do the Bills. And yes, I'm sure Brandon runs things by the Pegulas before signing big deals, but its obvious he has a good bit of autonomy. Things simply get done and get done quickly.

And maybe the idea of Terry as a 'Co-GM' is overblown....but there is tons of evidence he has an active part of any front office decision for the Sabres.

 

[joshjull]

You’re completely downplaying the Pegulas day to day involvement in the hockey team. The greatest owner of companies in the world, Warren Buffet, communicates with his CEO’s once a year. That’s all he needs because he understands his limitations but recognizes what counts is the bottom line.

There is zero need for Pegula to communicate daily with his GM. Zero. A good oil and gas billionaire who owns a trophy sports team should interact as little as possible with managers of a business he knows nothing about, but he should hold them accountable for the bottom line. The Pegulas have it completely ass backwards with the Sabres: excessive day to day meddling, and zero accountability. I submit 13 futile seasons as evidence.

He’s a dorky fanboy of the team who loves to be in the know. So he talks to Adams a lot for that purpose. I’ve seen little to suggest he’s telling Adams what to do on a daily basis. You seem to be suggesting he’s some Machiavellian manipulator from on high, pulling puppet strings on a daily basis. Thats conspiracy theory nonsense.

None of this means he gets a pass for 13 years of futility. He is 100% to blame for it. But it’s due to his macro decisons with management hires and team direction.

1) Murray/Tanking -> Pegula impulsively hires Patty L. Who then hires Murray and immediately starts fighting with him over the direction of the rebuild. Pegula has to step in and pick a side. He goes with Murray and the hard-core tank. Which leads to 4yrs of losing hockey.

2) Botts -> Three more years of futility. This is the only “traditional” path to a GM hiring he’s taken. He also used the NHL front office guidance. I can’t beat him up too much for picking him. But he still takes the blame, because the buck stops with him.

3) Flat management-> Another year of futility. Pegula thought he found his McD for the Sabres in Krueger. So he sets up the same management structure with the GM and coach both reporting directly to him. This was such a mess, it didn’t even last a year.

4) Adams 1.0 (part of flat management) -> Hires someone with zero hockey front office experience because he’s known him a long time and trusts him. He felt burned by trusting Patty L. and NHL front office. Ironically he did this while also giving ton of power to a snake oil salesman like Krueger.

5) Adams 2.0/another rebuild-> Three more years of futility. We knew at would be at least 2 years without playoffs as we went through this process. Pegula knew this as well or at the very least was told this by Adams. So he wasn’t signing off blind to this happening.

Each front office after Murray has been brought in to clean up the mess from the prior one.

 

[Gabrielor]

He’s a dorky fanboy of the team who loves to be in the know. So he talks to Adams a lot for that purpose. I’ve seen little to suggest he’s telling Adams what to do on a daily basis. You seem to be suggesting he’s some Machiavellian manipulator from on high, pulling puppet strings on a daily basis. Thats conspiracy theory nonsense.

None of this means he gets a pass for 13 years of futility. He is 100% to blame for it. But it’s due to his macro decisons with management hires and team direction.

1) Murray/Tanking -> Pegula impulsively hires Patty L. Who then hires Murray and immediately starts fighting with him over the direction of the rebuild. Pegula has to step in and pick a side. He goes with Murray and the hard-core tank. Which leads to 4yrs of losing hockey.

2) Botts -> Three more years of futility. This is the only “traditional” path to a GM hiring he’s taken. He also used the NHL front office guidance. I can’t beat him up too much for picking him. But he still takes the blame, because the buck stops with him.

3) Flat management-> Another year of futility. Pegula thought he found his McD for the Sabres in Krueger. So he sets up the same management structure with the GM and coach both reporting directly to him. This was such a mess, it didn’t even last a year.

4) Adams 1.0 (part of flat management) -> Hires someone with zero hockey front office experience because he’s known him a long time and trusts him. He felt burned by trusting Patty L. and NHL front office. Ironically he did this while also giving ton of power to a snake oil salesman like Krueger.

5) Adams 2.0/another rebuild-> Three more years of futility. We knew at would be at least 2 years without playoffs as we went through this process. Pegula knew this as well or at the very least was told this by Adams. So he wasn’t signing off blind to this happening.

Each front office after Murray has been brought up to clean up the mess from the prior one.

We're now officially at the point where Adams would only be cleaning his own mess up, so its his kingdom fully now.

 

[TehDoak]

He’s a dorky fanboy of the team who loves to be in the know. So he talks to Adams a lot for that purpose. I’ve seen little to suggest he’s telling Adams what to do on a daily basis. You seem to be suggesting he’s some Machiavellian manipulator from on high, pulling puppet strings on a daily basis. Thats conspiracy theory nonsense.

C'mon, there's plenty of wiggle room between "dorky fanboy" and "puppet master"

He bought the team to be involved in management. He probably is getting daily updates about internal team stuff we don't hear about (injuries, other GMs calling about trades) and it's also very clear he has a say in decisions, and on several occasions has pushed things through that shouldn't have been.

None of this means he gets a pass for 13 years of futility. He is 100% to blame for it. But it’s due to his macro decisons with management hires and team direction.

1) Murray/Tanking -> Pegula impulsively hires Patty L. Who then hires Murray and immediately starts fighting with him over the direction of the rebuild. Pegula has to step in and pick a side. He goes with Murray and the hard-core tank. Which leads to 4yrs of losing hockey.

The issue was never the tank, it was the complete and total razing of the existing team structure, which Pegula OK'd. You can't rebuild from scratch in one season....which they tried to do.

2) Botts -> Three more years of futility. This is the only “traditional” path to a GM hiring he’s taken. He also used the NHL front office guidance. I can’t beat him up too much for picking him. But he still takes the blame, because the buck stops with him.

Unforuntately, Botts is probably the most competent GM they have had, which isn't saying much. The two worst decisions (the RoR trade and Skinner signing) have impatient billionaire all over them though. That being said, his drafting record has improved with time, and most of the success the Adams teams has had was due to players he acquired. A team of Eichel/Cozens/Thompson with Reinhart on the wing may have been a force to be reckoned with.

3) Flat management-> Another year of futility. Pegula thought he found his McD for the Sabres in Krueger. So he sets up the same management structure with the GM and coach both reporting directly to him. This was such a mess, it didn’t even last a year.

4) Adams 1.0 (part of flat management) -> Hires someone with zero hockey front office experience because he’s known him a long time and trusts him. He felt burned by trusting Patty L. and NHL front office. Ironically he did this while also giving ton of power to a snake oil salesman like Krueger.

5) Adams 2.0/another rebuild-> Three more years of futility. We knew at would be at least 2 years without playoffs as we went through this process. Pegula knew this as well or at the very least was told this by Adams. So he wasn’t signing off blind to this happening.

Each front office after Murray has been brought up to clean up the mess from the prior one.

Adams was brought in because he trusted him to do what he was told and they also knew no GM worth their salt would go along with the cap floor spending plan/bare bones front office plan they were going to roll out with the pandemic.

As I said previously, the Pegulas either need to commit resources and run this like they run the Bills, traditional front office structure without needing to consult with the Pegula family over daily moves or they need to realize they aren't the right people for this team and work to find another owner who will.

 

[toddkaz]

 

[BuffaloMango]

I always convinced myself there was just some little problem we needed to fix before we could be good. Just need a good coach (okay, to be fair, we have had terrible coaches), just need to get decent goaltending, just need to get rid of players with a bad attitude, etc. I'm convinced now that the organization is just rotten, and it starts at the top. There's no accountability anywhere, and the owner is way too involved in hockey operations. We don't have a chance until Terry sells.

There is a little problem that needs to be fixed, but it’s the toughest one. This franchise needs to put a POH in between Terry and the GM and then Terey needs to stay in Florida permanently.

Nothing will change until that’s done.

The next question isn’t “who is best for the job?”. It is “Who is the best candidate Terry will hire and keep him out?”.

There were some rumors a few seasons ago that Danny Briere was interviewed for the role but he wanted a “no meddling” clause like McBeane are rumored to have and that’s where it died.

I know it’s total nostalgia but the answer to “the best Terry will hire” is likely Lindy Ruff if anybody at all.

 

[BuffaloMango]

The Pegula influence has always been overblown. The few times he has gotten involved, it’s been obvious, clumsy and blown up in his face fairly quickly.

1) Impulsively hiring LaFontaine
2) Flat management structure with Krueger.

The irony about the flat management structure is that idea came from the Bills set up. Where McDermott and Beane both reporting directly to Pegula. He thought he had his McD for the Sabres in Krueger. It works for the Bills because they're good at their jobs and work well together. It was a complete mess with the Sabres because Krueger was horrible.

They have a president of hockey ops and GM set up in all but name with Adams/Karmanos.

It does not come from the Bills.

Pegula talks about his flat management structure all the way back to when he bought the team. It was part of his defense for circumventing Ted Black and having secret meetings with Darcy.

 

[BuffaloMango]

I am with @TehDoak and think the issue is less about the Pegulas owning the team (the Bills and Bandits are doing just fine with the Pegulas as owners) and how much influence the Pegulas have on the hockey operations of the Sabres that is the issue.

They need to hire experienced, competent hockey people, give them the budget they need to do their job as best as possible, and then get the heck out of the way.

The challenge would be finding the right people to put at the top of the organization at this point.

This feels pedantic. You can’t separate the owner from their involvement.

On a Bills message board there is a long time notable poster who has worked in a couple of big 4 pro sports leagues on the business side. In the thread about the new COO he mentioned that the Bills are not well known for being run well on the business side.

As a fan, the QB postion covers up most things. I also have a hard time with Pegula having two high level hires quit on him in short order in Pat and Marrone. Both may be blow hards and suck at their jobs. But there are only a couple dozen of those roles on the planet and Pegula has had 2 nope out of his organizations.

I also believe it was rumored quite some time ago that McBean both have no meddling clauses in their contracts. Something Terry won’t grant on the Sabres side.

 

[Jim Bob]

This feels pedantic. You can’t separate the owner from their involvement.

On a Bills message board there is a long time notable poster who has worked in a couple of big 4 pro sports leagues on the business side. In the thread about the new COO he mentioned that the Bills are not well known for being run well on the business side.

As a fan, the QB postion covers up most things. I also have a hard time with Pegula having two high level hires quit on him in short order in Pat and Marrone. Both may be blow hards and suck at their jobs. But there are only a couple dozen of those roles on the planet and Pegula has had 2 nope out of his organizations.

I also believe it was rumored quite some time ago that McBean both have no meddling clauses in their contracts. Something Terry won’t grant on the Sabres side.

Involvement is a behavior. I do not subscribe to a fixed mindset that says that how Pegula has operated as the Sabres owner to this point will be the way that he will always operate as the Sabres owner moving forward.

And given that other sports franchises that Pegula owns have had higher levels of success, I do not see it as a foregone conclusion that there is no chance that Terry could come to the realization that his approach to the Sabres needs to change if they are to have on-ice success.

 

[BuffaloMango]

Involvement is a behavior. I do not subscribe to a fixed mindset that says that how Pegula has operated as the Sabres owner to this point will be the way that he will always operate as the Sabres owner moving forward.

And given that other sports franchises that Pegula owns have had higher levels of success, I do not see it as a foregone conclusion that there is no chance that Terry could come to the realization that his approach to the Sabres needs to change if they are to have on-ice success.

Sure, I agree with the top. But again Terry's continued involvement makes him a bad owner. If he stops he would be a good owner. I don't understand the need to say "his ownership isn't the problem. his involvement is." At the moment those two are intertwined.

Until something drastically changes, like Terry never having a say in a single decision on the Sabres side, I have no faith in the Buffalo Bills without Josh Allen and/or Brandon Bean. I think even a broken clock is right twice a day. I will take an eternity of 9-8 seasons under Bean before I would trust Terry Pegula with replacing the GM of the Buffalo Bills.

 

[Jim Bob]

Sure, I agree with the top. But again Terry's continued involvement makes him a bad owner. If he stops he would be a good owner. I don't understand the need to say "his ownership isn't the problem. his involvement is." At the moment those two are intertwined.

Until something drastically changes, like Terry never having a say in a single decision on the Sabres side, I have no faith in the Buffalo Bills without Josh Allen and/or Brandon Bean. I think even a broken clock is right twice a day. I will take an eternity of 9-8 seasons under Bean before I would trust Terry Pegula with replacing the GM of the Buffalo Bills.

I just believe that Pegula evolving as an owner is much more likely than Pegula selling the team.

If you are of the belief that the only way the Sabres can improve is if Pegula sells, then I believe that you will be waiting a long time for that.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Sure, I agree with the top. But again Terry's continued involvement makes him a bad owner. If he stops he would be a good owner. I don't understand the need to say "his ownership isn't the problem. his involvement is." At the moment those two are intertwined.

Until something drastically changes, like Terry never having a say in a single decision on the Sabres side, I have no faith in the Buffalo Bills without Josh Allen and/or Brandon Bean. I think even a broken clock is right twice a day. I will take an eternity of 9-8 seasons under Bean before I would trust Terry Pegula with replacing the GM of the Buffalo Bills.

I can't think of too many teams anyone would have faith in if they lost their starting quarterback.

I just believe that Pegula evolving as an owner is much more likely than Pegula selling the team.

If you are of the belief that the only way the Sabres can improve is if Pegula sells, then I believe that you will be waiting a long time for that.

Even more importantly if you believe the only way the Buffalo Sabres can improve is if Pegula sells....

 

[Jim Bob]

Even more importantly if you believe the only way the Buffalo Sabres can improve is if Pegula sells....

I highly doubt that the Pegulas would sell the Sabres to someone that would move the team out of Buffalo. Just like how BTG was unwilling to sell to someone that would move the team. The Pegulas are heavily invested in Buffalo. I do not foresee that commitment changing.

 

[Moncton man]

I would say Pegula gets cachet from owning multiple franchises. The two main ones, and probably the others, have appreciated in value. Championships are something the fans care about more than the owners do. I think so anyway. Fans wanting Terry to sell isnt a good enough reason for him to do so

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

I highly doubt that the Pegulas would sell the Sabres to someone that would move the team out of Buffalo. Just like how BTG was unwilling to sell to someone that would move the team. The Pegulas are heavily invested in Buffalo. I do not foresee that commitment changing.

Sure they'll just find someone else who wants to buy the Sabres and not move them to Houston. Those practically grow on trees. I don't, for a moment, doubt that the BoG wants to keep the team here, but if they can't they aren't going to slow down an acquisition to a bigger market.

 

[Jim Bob]

Sure they'll just find someone else who wants to buy the Sabres and not move them to Houston. Those practically grow on trees. I don't, for a moment, doubt that the BoG wants to keep the team here, but if they can't they aren't going to slow down an acquisition to a bigger market.

They have before.

Sorry, but the fear mongering misses me.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

They have before.

Sorry, but the fear mongering misses me.

Sounds like bliss

 

[Chainshot]

Sure they'll just find someone else who wants to buy the Sabres and not move them to Houston. Those practically grow on trees. I don't, for a moment, doubt that the BoG wants to keep the team here, but if they can't they aren't going to slow down an acquisition to a bigger market.

The BoG is unlikely to allow a relocation to interrupt their cash cow of expansion fees.

 

[BuffaloMango]

I can't think of too many teams anyone would have faith in if they lost their starting quarterback.



Even more importantly if you believe the only way the Buffalo Sabres can improve is if Pegula sells....

RIght, of course. But I am not talking about a game or a season. I am talking holistically. I have zero faith in Pegula captaining a ship that needs to replace Brandon Bean and/or Josh Allen.

The reason I mention both is because NFL GM's often don't get two generations of leadership in the same org. It is certainly possible, or even likely that the Bills move on from Bean at some point in the post-Allen era. I don't trust the Terry Pegula we are experiencing now in 2024 to be able to keep the ship pointed in the right direction.

 

[BuffaloMango]

I would say Pegula gets cachet from owning multiple franchises. The two main ones, and probably the others, have appreciated in value. Championships are something the fans care about more than the owners do. I think so anyway. Fans wanting Terry to sell isnt a good enough reason for him to do so

Interesting fact. The Buffalo Bandits are the only team that Terry Pegula owns with a President/Director of (insert sport) Ops in Scott Loffler.

Something tells me that Pegula isn't having a bunch of secret meetings with Deitrich (GM) behind Loffler or Tavares back. Nor will he say that he speaks to any of them more than his wife, kids, family, etc. and their success comparatively to his other franchises is likely not a coincidence.

Worth noting that the Bandits won 4 league championships in the 20 years before Pegula bought them and have won just one since he bought them 13 years ago.

 

[BuffaloMango]

I would say Pegula gets cachet from owning multiple franchises. The two main ones, and probably the others, have appreciated in value. Championships are something the fans care about more than the owners do. I think so anyway. Fans wanting Terry to sell isnt a good enough reason for him to do so

Are there any NHL/NFL franchises that have depreciated in value in the last 10-15 years?

Owning an NFL or NHL team isn't like opening a local restaurant. The Coyotes basically play at the Northtown (Pepsi) Center and their value increased like 40 or 50% last year.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

Interesting fact. The Buffalo Bandits are the only team that Terry Pegula owns with a President/Director of (insert sport) Ops in Scott Loffler.

Something tells me that Pegula isn't having a bunch of secret meetings with Deitrich (GM) behind Loffler or Tavares back. Nor will he say that he speaks to any of them more than his wife, kids, family, etc. and their success comparatively to his other franchises is likely not a coincidence.

Worth noting that the Bandits won 4 league championships in the 20 years before Pegula bought them and have won just one since he bought them 13 years ago.

There's twice as many teams now. It's probably most accurate to say the Bandits won 1 championship after losing Bartley, and 1 after Pegula bought the team.