Pre-Game Talk: Hawks in the SENS Den, Tues 7:30 pm on TSN

[Tnuoc Alucard]

In a league with a point given for special losses it is.
It would take them 5 losses to drop back to .500

There is a reason they display team records as W-L-OTL and not W-L.

In a league that eliminated Ties, but awards a point for an OT or SO loss .......... the NHL, on it's website, switched from "winning percentage" to "Points Percentage" many years ago.

When anyone says "5 games over .500" in a league that has only Wins and Losses........ it can only mean a team has five more wins, than losses.

example = 15 wins and 10 losses.


Today, the Ottawa Senators have a .451 P%, and will be playing the Leafs who have a .602 P%

look it up for yourself

NHL.com - Stats

 

[BondraTime]

In a league that eliminated Ties, but awards a point for an OT or SO loss .......... the NHL, on it's website, switched from "winning percentage" to "Points Percentage" many years ago.

When anyone says "5 games over .500" in a league that has only Wins and Losses........ it can only mean a team has five more wins, than losses.

example = 15 wins and 10 losses.


Today, the Ottawa Senators have a .451 P%, and will be playing the Leafs who have a .602 P%

look it up for yourself

NHL.com - Stats

Aren't you just proving his point?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Guessing attendance will be 13k tonight

Attendance: 14,007 (75.7% full)

 

[jbeck5]

Unfortunately that's not how UFA works...

Well, then avoid going after UFAs if you're gonna have to overpay by 2-3 million.

No one ever got good by overpaying free agents by 2-3 million(especially a budget team in a cap world). In fact, that's how you can quickly become bad. Do that a couple times and you're looking at phaneuf and Ryan's contracts. You don't wanna keep adding these 7 million dollar contracts for 2nd and 3rd line production.

Eventually you have to say enough is enough and start reserving that money for legitimate stars.

It hurts you in more ways than one. You overpay for guys like Ryan and then every free agent that comes through your system starts to ask for more in comparison. One player might not make free agents have that attitude but when you start to get more and more overpaid players you'll have more and more free agents say "well I deserve as much as that guy" and will get pissed when they don't get it. It just snowballs into a shitstorm in the dressing room.

 

[BondraTime]

Well, then avoid going after UFAs if you're gonna have to overpay by 2-3 million.

No one ever got good by overpaying free agents by 2-3 million(especially a budget team in a cap world). In fact, that's how you can quickly become bad. Do that a couple times and you're looking at phaneuf and Ryan's contracts. You don't wanna keep adding these 7 million dollar contracts for 2nd and 3rd line production.

Eventually you have to say enough is enough and start reserving that money for legitimate stars.

It hurts you in more ways than one. You overpay for guys like Ryan and then every free agent that comes through your system starts to ask for more in comparison. One player might not make free agents have that attitude but when you start to get more and more overpaid players you'll have more and more free agents say "well I deserve as much as that guy" and will get pissed when they don't get it. It just snowballs into a ****storm in the dressing room.

Again, you are missing the picture. When he signed his contract, it was literally close to/slightly higher than his market value.

Ryan was not going to sign for anything less than 6.5 ass a UFA, hence his market. Looking back right now, he is overpaid by 4-5 million, at the time of us signing him, he was overpaid by 0.5/1 million.

Again, I agree it was a bad signing. Very much so. The way you are portraying it is not based on what was actually happening or happened.

 

[jbeck5]

Again, you are missing the picture. When he signed his contract, it was literally close to/slightly higher than his market value.

Ryan was not going to sign for anything less than 6.5 ass a UFA, hence his market. Looking back right now, he is overpaid by 4-5 million, at the time of us signing him, he was overpaid by 0.5/1 million.

Again, I agree it was a bad signing. Very much so. The way you are portraying it is not based on what was actually happening or happened.

I think you're missing the picture.

Ryan was coming off:

82-31-26-57
46-11-19-30

That is not worth 7.5. It's not even in the "slightly/close to" category. If he wasn't going to sign for less than 6.5 on the open market, maybe we should have signed for 6.5 million...and since he wouldnt be an open market free agent, but our player we are resigning, you hope to shave 500,000 off that because you gave up a lot to get him and you hear of players wanting to help out teams who care a lot about acquiring them. Or you just sign them to 7.5 right away. I can't believe someone is trying to defend this type of move at any time.

I am always against signing 50 point players to 7.5 million a year on long term contracts with no movement clause...i can't believe you're trying to defend that move under any circumstances. Maybe if there was no cap and we were the new york rangers i would understand your logic of signing 50 something point players to 7.5 long term with no clause. Wouldn't want someone thinking like that running a shoestring budget team with a cap in place.

 

[BondraTime]

I think you're missing the picture.

Ryan was coming off:

82-31-26-57
46-11-19-30

That is not worth 7.5. It's not even in the "slightly/close to" category. If he wasn't going to sign for less than 6.5 on the open market, maybe we should have signed for 6.5 million...and since he wouldnt be an open market free agent, but our player we are resigning, you hope to shave 500,000 off that because you gave up a lot to get him and you hear of players wanting to help out teams who care a lot about acquiring them. Or you just sign them to 7.5 right away. I can't believe someone is trying to defend this type of move at any time.

I am always against signing 50 point players to 7.5 million a year on long term contracts with no movement clause...i can't believe you're trying to defend that move under any circumstances. Maybe if there was no cap and we were the new york rangers i would understand your logic of signing 50 something point players to 7.5 long term with no clause. Wouldn't want someone thinking like that running a shoestring budget team with a cap in place.

You see, as a soon to be UFA, if we don't pay him he becomes an open market UFA, he has all of the pull, I'm not sure how you're missing this....

Nobody is trying to defend it, as I've said I never liked it and still don't, but the way you seem to looking at it is flawed, at best.

UFA's get paid, hence guys going to UFA.

Bobby Ryan, at the time, was not a 7.25 million dollar player.

He would have, undoubtedly, been offered at least a 7+ million per season contract by someone on the free agent market.

We had just seen Spezza and Alfredsson walk; letting Ryan go (for better or for worse) was not an option on the table.

Ryan's contract extension was a necessary one for Senators

I'm not defending the signing, as I have repeated many times. I am arguing against your recollection of what was going on at the time, and some jumps you are making.

 

[jbeck5]

You see, as a soon to be UFA, if we don't pay him he becomes an open market UFA, he has all of the pull, I'm not sure how you're missing this....

Nobody is trying to defend it, as I've said I never liked it and still don't, but the way you seem to looking at it is flawed, at best.

UFA's get paid, hence guys going to UFA.

Bobby Ryan, at the time, was not a 7.25 million dollar player.

He would have, undoubtedly, been offered at least a 7+ million per season contract by someone on the free agent market.

We had just seen Spezza and Alfredsson walk; letting Ryan go (for better or for worse) was not an option on the table.

Ryan's contract extension was a necessary one for Senators

I'm not defending the signing, as I have repeated many times. I am arguing against your recollection of what was going on at the time, and some jumps you are making.

I didn't make any jumps.

I'm saying signing him to 7.25(thanks for correcting me, not 7.5) was stupid at the time because he wasn't that good of a player. As time went on, i've been proven right.

You say "if we didn't sign him, another team would have for atleast 7" ...well good for them. Let them. Let their fans be on this message board going "why the F did we sign this guy to so much money for so long blah blah blah"

The solution to not having enough talent isn't to overpay the best guys each summer to 7.5 million. It's to draft them and use your money to retain them.

So my opinion is the trade was bad...and once you realized your 50some point asset is asking for over 7 million, you trade him like we traded yashin who was asking for too much...or hossa(didnt turn out as well as the yashin trade but heatley was good) but the point is once you're not comfortable paying an asset too much money, you trade him and acquire another good younger asset of equal value. Our management instead either signs him to 7.25 or trades him for an older asset(zibby brassard) and both seem to hinder long term success.

 

[Langdon Alger]

6x6 for a 40 something point player who has declined in production 4-5 years in a row? I'm not high enough for this...

It’s not 4-5 years in a row. He’s in his second bad year in a row. He was fine before last year. Check his numbers.

 

[jbeck5]

It’s not 4-5 years in a row. He’s in his second bad year in a row. He was fine before last year. Check his numbers.

Sorry there was one year in his 4-5 year decline where he had a slight bounce back

70
to 55
to 59 (slight bump i forgot about)
to 41
to 20 so far

My assesment wasn't off. He's been declining in production for a few years now and is a 40ish point player the last couple years. That's very similar to ryan's production before coming here. Id be weary of signing him to some huge 7x7 deal or something. It would likely backfire as he puts up 40-50 points a year with flashes of brilliance and periods of complete ghosting in between. Then you look at other top teams spending that money on players that bring it every game...then you wonder why they're successful and we're not.

 

[Cosmix]

Dorion is a genius! Just ask Swiftwin, his biggest fan.

Did you spell genius with a g instead of a p?

 

[Cosmix]

What's the deal with him? Has he had any major leg injuries?
I've heard he has a really good work ethic in the gym...which is confusing because his endurance looks like ****. He'll move his legs one shift on the rush...and the rest of the game he's luke Richardson/Jason smith out there not moving his legs swinging his stick around.

For a guy known to spend a lot of time in the gym, he sure doesn't do much explosive training for his lower body...nor does he seem to do any long distance cardio.

Phaneuf looks slower than Richardson and Smith.

 

[Langdon Alger]

Sorry there was one year in his 4-5 year decline where he had a slight bounce back

70
to 55
to 59 (slight bump i forgot about)
to 41
to 20 so far

My assesment wasn't off. He's been declining in production for a few years now and is a 40ish point player the last couple years. That's very similar to ryan's production before coming here. Id be weary of signing him to some huge 7x7 deal or something. It would likely backfire as he puts up 40-50 points a year with flashes of brilliance and periods of complete ghosting in between. Then you look at other top teams spending that money on players that bring it every game...then you wonder why they're successful and we're not.

He scored 30 the year he had 59. I don’t think he’s an elite player, but I don’t see him as a 40 point guy going forward either. Sure, players can regress as we’ve seen with Ryan, but I don’t think that will happen with Duchene. Maybe he never hits 70 points again, I don’t know. 50-65 seems more likely than 40 to me.

As for being concerned about giving him a long term deal? I get it, but unless you trade him, what choice do we have? He’s not signing for 4 years at 5 million per season. He’s going to get paid. Whether it’s here or somewhere else. Will they trade him so soon after bringing him in? Considering what they gave up to get him? Doubt it.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

Ryan is getting older, isn't getting any faster and his hands are in worse shape than trenches in WW1. 30-40 points might honestly be the new normal here, and at that salary that's looking like David Clarkson bad. If we can retain a little salary and trade him for someone younger with a "less worse" deal, you have to look at it.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I think its pretty safe to say what we've got out of Ryan for the past 2 season plus this one is the new normal, not his 20 games of solid play in the playoffs last May. He easily has one of the worst contracts in the entire NHL.