Hall of Fame players in the current NHL

[Epsilon]

So basically it's Kovalchuk's fault that Don Waddell is an idiot and surrounded him with trash for all but one or two years in Atlanta?

As was pointed out already, he was not pointless in the sweep to the Rangers. And it might have helped had he not had to step up and fight Sean Avery himself, as none of his gutless teammates were up to the task, apparently. Stats aside, my memory of that series was Kovalchuk looking like he wanted to win, and the other 19 stiffs on his team looking like they'd been drunk for a week.

Hey! Waddell went out and acquired that noted playoff warrior Keith Tkachuk to put his team over the top!

 

[goooal]

So basically it's Kovalchuk's fault that Don Waddell is an idiot and surrounded him with trash for all but one or two years in Atlanta?

As was pointed out already, he was not pointless in the sweep to the Rangers. And it might have helped had he not had to step up and fight Sean Avery himself, as none of his gutless teammates were up to the task, apparently. Stats aside, my memory of that series was Kovalchuk looking like he wanted to win, and the other 19 stiffs on his team looking like they'd been drunk for a week.

I did not watch the series when it was going on, so I can't speak for everything that had been going on up until that fight, but honestly I don't count his fight against Avery as a positive thing. I mean, he (Kovalchuk) was by far their most dangerous offensive weapon and he took himself off the ice for 5 minutes because of Sean Avery. Which team do you think suffers the bigger loss there? I'd say that's a victory for Avery (we all know what his role is) and, if anything, a selfish play from Kovalchuk. Now, as I recall, the Thrashers were down by quite a few goals at the time (not sure of the period though), but it still didn't end up helping his team any. I understand the value of playing out of character in those pressure games, but risking injury and keeping yourself (the best player and the one most needed for the situation the Thrashers were in) off the ice for five minutes is hard to justify from what I know of the situation.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Is Chris Pronger really a "mortal lock"?

 

[seventieslord]

Is Chris Pronger really a "mortal lock"?

Yes.

5-time postseason all-star, hart winner, and has had three smythe-caliber playoffs.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

also true of neely. i think he only had 2g in his 8 games in the finals.

for some reason, it is rarely used against neely, but is used against others (such as lindros and heatley).

the numbers look the same, but how can anybody who has watched both compare neely's playoff runs to heatley's with a straight face?

 

[nik jr]

the numbers look the same, but how can anybody who has watched both compare neely's playoff runs to heatley's with a straight face?

i was not comparing their playoff careers, just in the finals.

post i quoted said "disappearing in the finals makes his playoff resume not so significant".

does that apply to neely? b/c neely did not do much in 8 finals games.


i don't see any reason neely should avoid this kind of criticism but heatley, lindros, tony esposito, etc, get loads of it.

 

[BraveCanadian]

i was not comparing their playoff careers, just in the finals.

post i quoted said "disappearing in the finals makes his playoff resume not so significant".

does that apply to neely? b/c neely did not do much in 8 finals games.


i don't see any reason neely should avoid this kind of criticism but heatley, lindros, tony esposito, etc, get loads of it.

Basically cause he's Cam Neely and darn it, people like him!

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

the point is that neely's three rounds leading up to the finals in '88 and '90 were legendary. the kind of playoff runs fathers tell their sons about. not the case for heatley. that's why neely's less productive finals don't tarnish his playoff legacy the way they do heatley's.

also is neely's 2 g, 5a in 10 games the same kind of disappearing as heatley's 1g in 5 games?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I did not watch the series when it was going on, so I can't speak for everything that had been going on up until that fight, but honestly I don't count his fight against Avery as a positive thing. I mean, he (Kovalchuk) was by far their most dangerous offensive weapon and he took himself off the ice for 5 minutes because of Sean Avery. Which team do you think suffers the bigger loss there? I'd say that's a victory for Avery (we all know what his role is) and, if anything, a selfish play from Kovalchuk. Now, as I recall, the Thrashers were down by quite a few goals at the time (not sure of the period though), but it still didn't end up helping his team any. I understand the value of playing out of character in those pressure games, but risking injury and keeping yourself (the best player and the one most needed for the situation the Thrashers were in) off the ice for five minutes is hard to justify from what I know of the situation.

Hardly a selfish play from Kovalchuk. It's not like it was in OT or something. You don't think the other 20 guys on that Atlanta bench saw that and maybe though "Geez, we've gotta step up here"? Now in the end, they didn't step up anyway and were swept, so maybe the fight didn't have the positive impact it ought to have. But it shows, at least to me, that Kovalchuk brought the intensity necessary for playoff hockey and wasn't going to take embarrassment sitting down.

Avery was doing his thing all series leading up to that. Somebody on Atlanta should have stepped up and taken care of the problem. Somebody other than the team's star sniper. But only Kovalchuk was willing, which is really a bad indictment on the rest of that team. They were obviously quite devoid of heart and character.

 

[nik jr]

the point is that neely's three rounds leading up to the finals in '88 and '90 were legendary. the kind of playoff runs fathers tell their sons about. not the case for heatley. that's why neely's less productive finals don't tarnish his playoff legacy the way they do heatley's.

also is neely's 2 g, 5a in 10 games the same kind of disappearing as heatley's 1g in 5 games?

i agree that neely's playoffs were more impressive, and heatley was worse in the finals.

but i think it is a bias, since i cannot think of other such examples, and it is probably a product of neely's popularity.

i also don't think words like legendary are normally used to describe the 1st 3 rounds.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i agree that neely's playoffs were more impressive, and heatley was worse in the finals.

but i think it is a bias, since i cannot think of other such examples, and it is probably a product of neely's popularity.

i also don't think words like legendary are normally used to describe the 1st 3 rounds.

that's kind of the point, it doesn't happen often. forsberg in '02, giguere in '03, pronger last year, neely in '89 and '90. and i'm not even a cam neely fan.

 

[goooal]

Hardly a selfish play from Kovalchuk. It's not like it was in OT or something. You don't think the other 20 guys on that Atlanta bench saw that and maybe though "Geez, we've gotta step up here"? Now in the end, they didn't step up anyway and were swept, so maybe the fight didn't have the positive impact it ought to have. But it shows, at least to me, that Kovalchuk brought the intensity necessary for playoff hockey and wasn't going to take embarrassment sitting down.

Avery was doing his thing all series leading up to that. Somebody on Atlanta should have stepped up and taken care of the problem. Somebody other than the team's star sniper. But only Kovalchuk was willing, which is really a bad indictment on the rest of that team. They were obviously quite devoid of heart and character.

I guess this is just one of those places where reasonable people can differ. I understand what you're saying, I just feel that the fight was both a bad idea at the time (in other words, I think at the time the fight was more negative than positive in terms of increasing Atlanta's chances to win the series) and in retrospect (history shows us that it did not spark the team or cause any significant change). Anyways I appreciate your opinion and I don't believe this is a subject that really needs to be dwelled on as I don't feel it was any kind of major turning point in the series, for good or bad (however it may be emblematic of the series as a whole).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Kovalchuk has those 7 top 10 finishes in goals, but his points finishes are far less impressive:

2nd,* 6th, 8th, 10th

*To Martin St. Louis

That doesn't scream HOF to me when you combine it with his lack of playoff success and his terrible play without the puck.

Just for comparison, here are Pavel Bure's top 10 finishes in points:

2nd,* 3rd, 5th, 7th

*To 3/4 of a season of Jagr

That's a fair bit more impressive and Bure is still on the outside looking in.

I think the reason you see so many recent guys with 6 top 10s in goals who we don't think of as HOF calibre is because, as seventieslord points out, in the modern era, players tend to specialize much more in finishing plays or setting them up.

 

[God Bless Canada]

The locks, the fringes and the debatables (Not necessarily first-ballot guys, but they'll get in. Listed according to current team):

*Teemu Selanne - LOCK: A dynamic offensive force from the moment he entered the league, who's still putting up points. Mr. Fab. 40.
*Mark Recchi - LOCK: 1,500 points. Look at who's in the 1,500 club. Recchi's not as good as the other guys at that level, but it's ever bit as impressive as 700 goals, which is viewed as an HHOF ticket puncher.
*Zdeno Chara - LOCK: One of the defining defencemen of his generation. A perennial all-star who leaves scouts scurrying for the "next Zdeno Chara."
*Jarome Iginla - LOCK: A big-time power forward who will top 500 goals and 1,000 points in the next year or two. Everything you want in an HHOFer, except a ring.
*Pavel Datsyuk, DEBATABLE: You could already make a case for him as a lock. I think he needs a couple more seasons at the level of 2008-09. (He might be in the middle of one right now). Hockey's finest combination of speed, skill, smarts and commitment for nearly half a decade. Some in the game will tell you he's hockey's best player.
*Nicklas Lidstrom, LOCK: Outside of Marty Brodeur, there isn't a bigger active lock for the HHOF.
*Mike Modano, LOCK: He deserves a better end than last week's freak accident. 1,300 point, a Cup as a franchise player and strong two-way play.
*Martin Brodeur, LOCK: This is the biggest gimmie of them all. He might not be the best goalie ever, but for my money, he's the most consistent and the most reliable of all-time.
*Paul Kariya, DEBATABLE: It's been the tale of two careers. Five all-star team nods and world-class offensive ability are hard to ignore. But an underwhelming second half of his career will hold him back. Our last memories aren't good.
*Chris Pronger, LOCK: He might be the most polarizing player out there among fans, but ask those in the game, and they'll rave about size, skill, intimidation and presence. For my money, he was the best player for Edmonton, Anaheim and Philly when they reached the Cup final.
*Sidney Crosby, LOCK: I might get lynched for including him among the locks, but for my money, he'd be in the HHOF if something happened today. Look at all that he's accomplished. He's done more in five years than some HHOFers did in their career. The kicker: he's as competitive as anybody in today's game.
*Joe Thornton, LOCK: The playoff record is underwhelming, especially for such a big player with big-time talent. But he's topped some lists for the best playmaker in the game for nearly a decade. He might finish with 1,000 assists before his career is finished.
*Martin St. Louis, DEBATABLE: He's closer than people think. Subtract a disappointing 2005-06 season, and you're looking at a guy who's consistently been the best, or among the best, playmaking wingers in the game. He'll probably lead wingers in assists this year. He had a late start to his NHL career, he's had just one serious injury, and he's had just the one extended playoff run, so don't be surprised if he has several more years of elite play.
*Alex Ovechkin, LOCK: Again, I might be lynched for this. But he's been near the top of best player lists since he entered the league. He's done it all in terms of individual accomplishments. Awards, five straight five-team all-star nods. A terrifying combination of elite skill, size and toughness. I don't think he has Crosby's competitiveness or loathsome attitude towards losing, which is why I would take Crosby over Ovechkin. As odd as it sounds for a 25-year-old, I think Ovechkin's best way to elevate his place among the game's true all-time greats is to win a Cup, or multiple Cups. There's enough awards and accomplishments there already.

The not-there-yets:
*Mikka Kiprusoff: Year-in, year-out, he's been consistently among the top goalies in the league. He needs a few more years at his 2003-04 to 2007-08 level. Shouldn't be inducted before Rogie Vachon, though.
*Marian Hossa: He's probably going to need career numbers to get in. But if he were to hit, say, 1,200 points, with the game he plays, and the fact that he's been on four Cup contenders, it'll make for an intriguing argument.
*Henrik Zetterberg: He's not as flashy as Datsyuk, but in the playoffs, he's been the better player. Solid, reliable, one of the most consistent efforts in the league. Needs a few more years at an elite level.
*Evgeni Malkin: Some will say that if I have Sid the Kid as a lock, I should have Malkin as a lock. Malkin hasn't played consistently at a high level as much as Crosby. His peak from January 2008 to June 2009 is as good as Crosby's peak, but Malkin's had lulls that Crosby hasn't experienced.
*Dany Heatley: He's been one of the most feared goal-scorers in the league since he entered in the league. My gut feeling is that the numbers, the accomplishments, the presence and his game will be good enough to justify strong debate, but there are some pretty strikes that are facing him.
*Daniel and Henrik Sedin: You can't mention one without mentioning the other. They've developed into elite players. Both have started to piece together eye-catching accomplishments. They play an efficient style, they haven't had a lengthy playoff run (yet, and I think they need a couple of them), and they weren't really leaned on until they were well into their 20s, so they might have several elite years ahead of them. Ask me about their credentials when their current contract expires in several years.
*Roberto Luongo: You could make a case that he's a debatable candidate right now. A couple top three finishes for the Lindsay Award. There is a lot to like from an HHOF perspective. But my recurring question about Luongo is whether he's a bad team goalie. Is he the next Curtis Joseph? Luongo doesn't need a Vezina, or several seasons among the league's elite. He needs a ring, or multiple extended playoff runs, to seal his HHOF portfolio.

The won't happen guys:
*Adam Foote: I really like Foote. He's been a rock-solid defenceman for 15 years. He'll get into an HOF, but it'll be the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame for his performances with Team Canada.
*Patrik Elias: For about a five-year span, he was as good of a two-way winger as there was in hockey. And he was a big part of two championships. But there isn't enough there to justify the HHOF.
*Ilya Kovalchuk: If the next 14 years are anything like the first year in Jersey, he'll gain a reputation as one of hockey's all-time bad team players, no matter how many goals he scores.
*Doug Weight: Deserves much applause for reaching 1,000 point plateau. But his career numbers aren't enough to punch his ticket, and he doesn't have enough supporting material to justify inducting a 1,000 point player.
*Daniel Alfredsson: Is Alfie slowing down? I think this is his worst point-per-game pace since 1998-99, when he suffered through several injury-prone years. I think he's a guy who could get in with 1,200 points, but he's PFF (Pushing Forty Fast) and I wouldn't be surprised if he retires in the next couple years.
*Alex Kovalev: Far too many negatives associated with Kovalev. 1,000 points? Congratulations. But that's far from enough for the tin man.
*Vincent Lecavalier: There's a natural instinct to compare him to Thornton: big, offensively gifted centres who were No. 1 draft picks. The problem with Lecavalier is that with the exception of 2007-08 and 2008-09, he hasn't pieced together elite seasons. He's too up-and-down for a lot of people's liking.

*NOTE: While they aren't active in the NHL, Jaromir Jagr and Peter Forsberg are both absolute locks for the HHOF.

 

[nik jr]

that's kind of the point, it doesn't happen often. forsberg in '02, giguere in '03, pronger last year, neely in '89 and '90. and i'm not even a cam neely fan.

of those, i think only giguere is considered something like legendary, and pronger was quite a bit better in '06 than '10, imo.

neely only played 10 games in '89, and i think you probably mean to say '88 or '91.

i have not seen most of those games, but of those i have, bourque was better, and i cannot remember anyone describing bourque's play as legendary. bourque also seems to be criticized much more for not winning than neely.

 

[unknown33]

*NOTE: While they aren't active in the NHL, Jaromir Jagr and Peter Forsberg are both absolute locks for the HHOF.

Might add Sergei Fedorov and Dominik Hasek for non-NHLers.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Might add Sergei Fedorov and Dominik Hasek for non-NHLers.

Definitively 2 more locks

 

[Big Phil]

So basically it's Kovalchuk's fault that Don Waddell is an idiot and surrounded him with trash for all but one or two years in Atlanta?

As was pointed out already, he was not pointless in the sweep to the Rangers. And it might have helped had he not had to step up and fight Sean Avery himself, as none of his gutless teammates were up to the task, apparently. Stats aside, my memory of that series was Kovalchuk looking like he wanted to win, and the other 19 stiffs on his team looking like they'd been drunk for a week.

Yeah he was saddled with a lacklustre GM I'll give him that.

But even that fiasco last summer with his big contract and his paltry 4 goals in 24 games this year for New Jersey. There is just a lot of things to complain about with Kovalchuk.

 

[Big Phil]

Is Chris Pronger really a "mortal lock"?

seventieslord said he had 5 season end all-star selections but he only has 4. Still, there is a total of 2 players NOT in the HHOF who won the Norris that are eligible. There are two eligible players NOT in the HHOF who won the Hart. Pronger won both. That alone gives him an edge but his playoff portfolio post lockout is probably the best out of anyone else, maybe Crosby, maybe Zetterberg.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

seventieslord said he had 5 season end all-star selections but he only has 4. Still, there is a total of 2 players NOT in the HHOF who won the Norris that are eligible. There are two eligible players NOT in the HHOF who won the Hart. Pronger won both. That alone gives him an edge but his playoff portfolio post lockout is probably the best out of anyone else, maybe Crosby, maybe Zetterberg.

To clarify:

Only eligible Norris winners not in the HHOF: Doug Wilson, Randy Carlyle
Only eligible Hart winners not in the HHOF: Tommy Anderson, Al Rollins, Eric Lindros*
Only eligible 4 Time Post Season All Star Defenseman not in the HHOF: Carl Brewer

*I think he was eligible this past year

Pronger is quite the obvious lock.

 

[PaganKnight]

If and it's a huge if Tim Thomas get two more Vezina and a cup. Do he has a chance?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If and it's a huge if Tim Thomas get two more Vezina and a cup. Do he has a chance?

If he gets two more Vezinas (giving him 3 total), he's a lock even without a Cup.

Hell, if he wins a 2nd Vezina, he'll be hard to keep out even without a Cup. A 2nd Vezina and a Cup would pretty much make him a lock.

I'm pretty sure that no goalie who has ever won 2 Vezinas or been a 1st Team All Star twice has ever been kept out of the Hall. Thomas is unique because he got such a late start, so he won't have as much career value, though - that's the only thing possibly holding him back. Well, losing his starter's job to Rask in between Vezinas doesn't look good either.

 

[Regal]

If he gets two more Vezinas (giving him 3 total), he's a lock even without a Cup.

Hell, if he wins a 2nd Vezina, he'll be hard to keep out even without a Cup. A 2nd Vezina and a Cup would pretty much make him a lock.

I'm pretty sure that no goalie who has ever won 2 Vezinas or been a 1st Team All Star twice has ever been kept out of the Hall. Thomas is unique because he got such a late start, so he won't have as much career value, though - that's the only thing possibly holding him back. Well, losing his starter's job to Rask in between Vezinas doesn't look good either.

I think this is one of the cases where past precedent won't predict future results. Thomas is 36 and has 5 seasons to his credits, and only one is really of any significance (though it looks like this one will be as well).

I think judging of goaltending position is the one that has really changed the most with expansion, in terms of more talent and competition, because you're now looking at 5 times the number of starters competing for awards compared to a 6 team league (whereas forwards and defensemen on the same teams could still compete for awards). When you consider that a goaltender is subject to more random variance in his stats due to the nature of it being a position of "denying" things happening, rather than "creating" them, there's far more chance of one-off great seasons or playoffs. In a 6 team league, this meant there was still a good chance of the "best" goaltenders having the best season, but I don't think that's necessarily the case anymore, and consistency should perhaps be more valued. You look at someone like Henrik Lundqvist, and he's been a better goaltender over the entire course of the lockout than Thomas, and yet doesn't have any awards of All Star teams to show for it. And right now, Thomas isn't even at Jose Theodore levels, and everyone pretty much agrees he'll be another Hart winner who doesn't get in the Hall.

Even if Thomas wins the Vezina this year, I still couldn't see him ahead of even a guy like Barrasso, who has a Vezina, 2 2nd team all-stars, 2 cups and a much longer career. If he wins a third, I suppose it'd be pretty tough with 3 in 4 years, but that's still a pretty small resume.

 

[finchster]

If he gets two more Vezinas (giving him 3 total), he's a lock even without a Cup.

Hell, if he wins a 2nd Vezina, he'll be hard to keep out even without a Cup. A 2nd Vezina and a Cup would pretty much make him a lock.

I'm pretty sure that no goalie who has ever won 2 Vezinas or been a 1st Team All Star twice has ever been kept out of the Hall. Thomas is unique because he got such a late start, so he won't have as much career value, though - that's the only thing possibly holding him back.

The only way I see Thomas getting into the Hall is if he wins a cup. I know it is a team achievement, but he will have to add something extra to compensate for his lack of career value. Because of his late start, I see it being very easy to not vote Thomas in regardless of his awards or voting record, but a cup could change that perception.

Well, losing his starter's job to Rask in between Vezinas doesn't look good either.

Thomas had hip surgery in the off season apparently it was a nagging problem for the last three seasons and became unbearable last season. The doctor who operated said he had no idea how Thomas could have played with his hip in that condition. After the surgery Thomas said he felt 100% and better than he did in his Vezina year, so far he hasn’t been lying. I would blame Thomas’s less than spectacular year on that hip injury and Rask was just playing way too good to deny him the starts.

 

[Derick*]

The fact that his backup led the league in save percentage in his off season does not bode well for Thomas.