OT: Half season rankings Defensemen

[CanadianHockey]

Ceci hasn't been up long enough for me to say he's the best in our end.

 

[Xspyrit]

Terrific job. Regarding ''Karlsson plays a lot more minutes than anyone else, and against other teams best players'', did you

1-just ignore it
2-have below grade 1 reading comprehension
3-not at all comprehend how it affects your precious stat

I'm leaning towards #3

lol you're saying that but you did miss the part where I say "In comparison since you're going to bring ice-time..." but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since I often update my posts so maybe it wasn't finished 4 minutes later after my initial submit. Of course I knew what you were going to say, you're very predictable to me.

GA is a terrible way to evaluate defencemen because it completely ignores icetime, goaltending and QoC. Suter plays in front of much better goaltending than Karlsson does.

It's a cherry picked stat (like what most people do all the time here). So yes it's a factor but are you saying that Karlsson is anything close to being as good as Suter defensively then? And in the comparison I have made, I don't think I have omitted ice-time (since Suter plays even more minutes) and don't tell me EK gets tougher minutes than him...

I demand proof of this. Good luck on your witch hunt

I really hate to do that but you pretty much force me to do it...

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=51911647&postcount=406
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=51915889&postcount=464
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=52268357&postcount=971
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=51917403&postcount=487

Also, look at that gem :

"Methot also only being 19 sec behind Tyutin in ES ice time could also be interpreted as CBJ not wanting to give Tyutin and others too much ice time/wanting to save them. Not interpreted as Methot being as good as them."

What kind of argument is that? I demonstrated that Methot was 3rd in ice-time at ES behind Tyutin (only 19 secs less per game) but you kept going like he was a 3rd pair guy not able to earn ice-time and slotted as their 7th D-man the following year. Reality is Methot was expendable for Columbus at that time, hence why they traded a strength to fill a need.

Lol Xspyrit if you're gonna use stats, at least do it right and in a more complete manner. What you're doing is like saying a girl is ugly by just looking at her feet. Very narrow scope

Man, I can't explain the whole world in just 1 post. Life is way too complex for that and hockey is no different.

Now please, go over the "narrow scope" and show me how EK is great at defense this season...

Where did you get this stat?

Karlsson has 45 GA at ES or 2.94 GA per 60.
Weber has 41 GA at ES or 2.80 GA per 60.

I dont think that means anything. Team stat.

68 (Team GA) - 11 (PPGA) = 57 (been on the ice for 57 goals against at ES and 11 when on the PK)

Doesn't include GA when EK is on the PP, but that wouldn't help his cause.

Not saying this stat is everything but looking at the list, you find many D-men struggling defensively this year. That stat says that Buff is probably the worst top pairing D-men defensively. Is it such a huge shock?

In his Norris year, EK was on the ice for 80 ES GA, in 81 games. BUT, was on the ice for 135 GF (with PP). That's +55

This year, he has been on the ice for 71 GF, only +14 so far. It's just not at the same level this year, and hence why he won't be in the talks for the Norris despite being the biggest scoring D-man

xspyrit is employing similar tactics to those that use them to bash our other players, which is to say you should be ok with his analysis if you are ok when attacking our other players, i.e., be consistent if you're going to say xspyrit is wrong

I value transitioning a ton for defensive play so I pick him high. Also really comfortable with Methot even if he hasn't been as good as last year.

Human nature... Some people are just intellectually dishonest when it doesn't fit their biased agendas. Next thing you'll hear is that Ottawa goaltending is MUCH better when Phillips or Cowen are on the ice compared to Karlsson.

actually not. Gryba has really good GA stats for some reason (probably luck) and I think he is brutal

Gryba is brutal offensively and in the transitioning aspect, but somehow manage to get the job done defensively. My observation is that he gets the body on forwards and don't leave them with too much space and also don't miss his positioning assignments a lot, like EK has done this season so many times in front of the net. But I'm just an amateur goalie, what do I know?

Well, I know that I like both kind of D-men for different reasons... My job is easier with guys like Gryba but I need guys like EK because I need my team to score more goals so I have a bigger "maneuver room"

 

[mcnorth]

lol at Karlsson at the top of the list, shows how biased this fanbase is

Overall, Karlsson is still our best D-man because his transitioning game and offense is still elite. He'll be back with better 2-way play next year

That transition you speak of IS defense.

A good defensive defenseman retrieves the puck well, covers his assignments in man or zone, takes care of the front of the net through positioning, collects rebounds/loose pucks, wins puck battles, wins foot races, is effective against the rush, has takeways, has good stick positioning when they don't have the puck, and gets the puck out of the zone effectively and consistently on the first try.

EK is FAR FAR FAR superior at that to just about every guy who puts the Sens jersey on each night.

Nothing to do with bias and everything to do with knowing the game. Some of the best parts of EK's game are his superior stick work without the puck, his ability to anticipate the play, his takeways through finesse and his amazing first step.

He's one of the best small defenceman in his own end in years - he does it using so little energy too - but people want to call it lazy b/c he makes it look so damn easy - it's like calling Lidstrom lazy because he's a master of angles rather than bashing into a guy to seperate him physically... you want the puck and you don't need anyone on their ass to take it away.

Sens fans know how good EK is defensively b/c they don't just know about the gaffes, which still happen, but shift in and shft out they see hoe good EK is. That's why a knowledgeable Sens fan knows how good EK is defensively. Frankly, he's underrated in that respect. I'm not saying he's Drunk Uncle Denis, but he's good and a hell of a lot better than most of our line-up.

 

[mcnorth]

I think the biggest knock against EK is he's always thinking offense. He probably plays some of his worst 'defensive defenceman' in the other team's end, and at the opposing blueline (although he's pretty solid gaining the zone and rarely turns it over there - but he does try to manufacture sometimes when it's just not there). Some of that comes down to your teammates reading you and covering for you, but in the end it's on you and you have to know someone is going to be back or shift if you're gonna pinch or drift to open space for a pass. In that respect, he's similar to Spezza in that he's 'hard to play with' b/c you do need to do things differently to react to him. Methot was great at it last season, and Kuba was pretty good too b/c he had no ego about his game and was underrated in how cerebral he was. He had good vision. Cowen needs to defer to EK and let EK drive the bus. That's why I prefer Cowen in another pair, as he will (God I hope) drive his own pairing b/c he does want to be a puck-mover. I'm content with Cowen NOT being a puckmover, but it's hard to break that.

 

[Xspyrit]

Anyone who uses GA to evaluate a player's defensive abilities is wrong, regardless of the player.

Ok but is it 100% wrong? Like it's not even an indicative? Isn't the main job for D-men to prevent goals? Of course bounces, forwards work and goaltending have a lot to say in this but over a full 82 games season, doesn't balance out a bit over the same team?

Yes, hockey is a team game, but let's say you have 2 D-men who play about 20 minutes a game on the same team... One has been on the ice for 80 ES GA and the other 40 ES GA. What can we conclude? Bad luck for one and good luck for the other?

To be perfectly honest, I don't trust any of our defensemen when protecting a lead other than maybe Methot/Ceci. That is how poor a season it has been for the D-core.

Sadly, it's also my sentiment.

I'm semi confident with Cowen (young, inexperienced at the pro level, coming back from major injury and missed training camp because of stupid contract negotiations so it was a bit to be expected) and Phillips is unfortunately on the decline (so my confidence in him is also declining).

Gryba as well, semi confident (good in front of the net and to play the body but his lack of speed and overall skill is always risky).

Karlsson just has poor decision making this season, his head is really not entirely into the game (understandably with personal issues) and he is also coming back from a freak injury.

Wiercioch is young and inexperienced and doesn't play a lot (because he can only play Left)

Corvo is uh-oh and is also declining"

It's about being smart with the puck for the full 60 minutes. If he's going to handle it as much as he does, he's going to have to learn to protect the lead throughout the game, especially with 10 to go.

Agreed, EK just takes too many unnecessary risks this season and his decision making has been awful compared to what he can do. How many times I was like "wtf EK? Why you did that? Make the simple play instead of the low percentage of success one..." Isn't why so many people critic Spezza so heavily too? Double standards on this board, I tell you

It's split second decisions out there. You can't expect him to process ''oh crap, I wanted to make that pass there but It's Cowen he screws up a lot so I better not'', then make the decision.

And how many ways that argument works? Ek deserve the split second excuse but Cowen doesn't?

Open your eyes.

Note : I feel I need to explain (sigh). On that play, Karlsson left Cowen in a really bad spot as he had very few time to make a play so he had to rush his decision and move the puck instantly. It struck the end of Gionta's stick and ended up on the stick of a Habs D-man (good bounce for them). Then, it was all Plekanec elite sense of anticipation. Ek is as much to blame as Cowen but Habs deserve credit for that play, as well as a very big amount of luck.

Cowen easily could have put that on net, but he flubbed it. the forwards being ''all covered'' has nothing to do with Cowen screwing up

... No time and space, shot would have probably been blocked (like 90% of EK shots) for an easier breakaway. Cowen basically did the only play he could considering the tough spot EK put him in. Credit on Habs (with their typical luck) for cashing in. Watch the replay again several times (like I just did) and tell me what else he could have done? Everyone was covered and he had no time and space to shoot. If Cowen is entirely to blame for that play and EK has no blame it's just another case of double standards, which I have seen ten thousand times on this board. Or it's because you never really played competitive hockey and can't recognize why that EK pass was not the right play to do.

That transition you speak of IS part of the defense.

Fixed.

A good defensive defenseman retrieves the puck well, covers his assignments in man or zone, takes care of the front of the net through positioning, collects rebounds/loose pucks, wins puck battles, wins foot races, is effective against the rush, has takeways, has good stick positioning when they don't have the puck, and gets the puck out of the zone effectively and consistently on the first try.

Which is pretty much the description of where EK struggle a lot this year. Add that he just takes too much risks all over the place and it ends up in our net many times. Has to get back to better decision making when to risk or play safe, like he did in his Norris season.

EK is FAR FAR FAR superior at that to just about every guy who puts the Sens jersey on each night.

Never said the opposite, his ability is elite and which is why I invested a ton of money in his hockey cards and already made big bucks thanks to him. In 2009-10, I knew that he was going to be real good so I bought just about every hockey card I could. Sold them 2 years later. Profit.

Nothing to do with bias and everything to do with knowing the game. Some of the best parts of EK's game are his superior stick work without the puck, his ability to anticipate the play, his takeways through finesse and his amazing first step.

I don't know the game

Commentators/analysts and ex NHL players don't know as well, so at least I'm not alone

He's one of the best small defenceman in his own end in years - he does it using so little energy too - but people want to call it lazy b/c he makes it look so damn easy - it's like calling Lidstrom lazy because he's a master of angles rather than bashing into a guy to seperate him physically... you want the puck and you don't need anyone on their ass to take it away.

Sens fans know how good EK is defensively b/c they don't just know about the gaffes, which still happen, but shift in and shft out they see hoe good EK is. That's why a knowledgeable Sens fan knows how good EK is defensively. Frankly, he's underrated in that respect. I'm not saying he's Drunk Uncle Denis, but he's good and a hell of a lot better than most of our line-up.

Look, I'm not a Leaf fan trying to bash your player so you don't have to worry about. I know exactly what EK is capable of (and talked about it a bit in this thread already), defensively as well. But if you can't recognize that he has been struggling defensively this year, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[mcnorth]

I do recognize that he's been struggling this year and he's been better in the past than he has this year. That's what's so frustrating about his game. The nonchalance you mentioned is maddening. But in comparison to the guy's in our own line-up he's much better and in an off-year he's better than their best year.

 

[Caje]

Ok but is it 100% wrong? Like it's not even an indicative? Isn't the main job for D-men to prevent goals? Of course bounces, forwards work and goaltending have a lot to say in this but over a full 82 games season, doesn't balance out a bit over the same team?

Josh Harding has a .933 SV% in 29 games. Craig Anderson has .902 SV% in 33 games. If you honestly think that doesn't have a huge effect on GA, you're crazy. Comparing the GA of Suter and Karlsson is completely pointless and yes, 100% wrong.

If you look instead at GA among team mates, it's still wrong. Goals are just not a good tool to measure performance, especially if you don't account for ice time, quality of competition, defensive partners, etc. There's a reason all the advanced stats use shots instead of goals to evaluate players.

 

[Benjamin]

68 (Team GA) - 11 (PPGA) = 57 (been on the ice for 57 goals against at ES and 11 when on the PK)

Doesn't include GA when EK is on the PP, but that wouldn't help his cause.

Not saying this stat is everything but looking at the list, you find many D-men struggling defensively this year. That stat says that Buff is probably the worst top pairing D-men defensively. Is it such a huge shock?

In his Norris year, EK was on the ice for 80 ES GA, in 81 games. BUT, was on the ice for 135 GF (with PP). That's +55

This year, he has been on the ice for 71 GF, only +14 so far. It's just not at the same level this year, and hence why he won't be in the talks for the Norris despite being the biggest scoring D-man"

I noticed this. But I also noticed a lot of them dmen at the top are on bad defensive teams.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Cowen is very underrated defensively imo Dont both him and Gryba have some of the best defensive numbers on the team?

 

[DrEasy]

I'm sure Karlsson would look better if he was still paired with Methot (Methot seemed to read Karlsson's decisions much better and he'd cover for him when needed), but sadly Cowen has only been effective this year when paired with Karlsson. It's a domino effect that impacts the entire defense.

 

[aragorn]

I'm sure Karlsson would look better if he was still paired with Methot (Methot seemed to read Karlsson's decisions much better and he'd cover for him when needed), but sadly Cowen has only been effective this year when paired with Karlsson. It's a domino effect that impacts the entire defense.

I've thought this for a while & said so, Methot seems to me anyway much better at reading what Karlsson is going to do & getting himself in a defensive position to help out if needed which it sometimes is.

I have also been promoting playing Cowen with Ceci, I can understand the coach not wanting to play two young guys together but Ceci is a little more predictable & takes less risks. I would like to see if they would make a good pairing. I thought that when Wiercioch & Ceci played together in a few games this yr that they were very good but Wier needs to get back into a game for us to see this again but unfortunately I doubt Phillips is going to be benched.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

To be perfectly honest, I don't trust any of our defensemen when protecting a lead other than maybe Methot/Ceci. That is how poor a season it has been for the D-core.

Protecting a lead, just like every facet of the game isn't the job of two guys called defensemen.

While the Sens D is young and mistakes are going to be made, many of the D-Zone problems are a result of forwards not doing their jobs.

IMO Karlsson is the best defensemen by far, yes he makes mistakes but a majority of those are caused by the decisions of youth as opposed to a lack of hockey IQ.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

I've thought this for a while & said so, Methot seems to me anyway much better at reading what Karlsson is going to do & getting himself in a defensive position to help out if needed which it sometimes is.

I have also been promoting playing Cowen with Ceci, I can understand the coach not wanting to play two young guys together but Ceci is a little more predictable & takes less risks. I would like to see if they would make a good pairing. I thought that when Wiercioch & Ceci played together in a few games this yr that they were very good but Wier needs to get back into a game for us to see this again but unfortunately I doubt Phillips is going to be benched.

Karlsson was playing fine with Cowen, as a matter of fact he was playing with Methot when he turned over the puck yesterday.

This isn't meant as a criticism of Methot because I would expect him to be a better player at 28 with 6-7 years NHL experience than Cowen at 22 in his second year.

The fact is until EK accepts the safe play is at times the best play it really doesn't matter who he plays with IMO.

EK is 23, he is supremely confident in his ability, he just needs to learn the safe is best on occasion.

 

[Benjamin]

I've thought this for a while & said so, Methot seems to me anyway much better at reading what Karlsson is going to do & getting himself in a defensive position to help out if needed which it sometimes is.

I have also been promoting playing Cowen with Ceci, I can understand the coach not wanting to play two young guys together but Ceci is a little more predictable & takes less risks. I would like to see if they would make a good pairing. I thought that when Wiercioch & Ceci played together in a few games this yr that they were very good but Wier needs to get back into a game for us to see this again but unfortunately I doubt Phillips is going to be benched.

Would really like to see this.

 

[83DIZ65]

If ya just looked at a spread sheet/stat sheet GRYBA is the best DMAN lol. butseriously he has played well. but Meth and Ceci are better.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Cowen easily could have put that on net, but he flubbed it. the forwards being ''all covered'' has nothing to do with Cowen screwing up

Not sure how you think he could have put it on the net in that situation.

He actual made the safest play available, but Turris never moved to the puck.

 

[Hammertyme]

Ceci
Karlsson
Methot
Wiercioch

Wiercioch 4th defensively?
Do you actually watch the games? He is dead last defensively just behind Karlsson. Offensively he is average 1/2 PPG.

 

[Hammertyme]

Cool. Does he play in the last minute though?

Not usually we are behind and they double shift Karlsson. If we are winning he actually does play in the last minute.

 

[YNWA14]

Ceci and Methot have been the most reliable defensively (sample size with Ceci, but he's legit).

Cowen, Karlsson, Gryba and Wiercioch have all been pretty inconsistent but have shown good things and bad. I wouldn't rank any of them in a particular order, but Karlsson plays against the toughest competition (though he has looked very poor doing it) and the others look better against weaker competition.

Phillips and Corvo have been pretty awful this year. I've always defended Phillips and I think that he still could round back into form and be helpful in the playoffs, but he's been really hard to watch this year.

If I had to make pairings based on how well they've played I'd go with this:

Methot - Karlsson
Cowen - Ceci
Wiercioch/Phillips - Gryba

But that's just me.

I'd really like to highlight Ceci's play. He's just been so good since coming up. He can rush the puck, play well defensively, he wins physical battles and makes smart plays. One thing that really impresses me is how he gets up and down the ice so quickly -- he'll join a rush, but if he doesn't get the initial pass or his shot doesn't go in he doesn't wait around down low he always hustles back out to his spot to defend without hesitation. His shot is also wowowow. An absolute steal at 15. I know it's management's job to sell a pick to the fanbase, but when they say they had him in their top 5 I believe it.

 

[83DIZ65]

Ceci and Methot have been the most reliable defensively (sample size with Ceci, but he's legit).

Cowen, Karlsson, Gryba and Wiercioch have all been pretty inconsistent but have shown good things and bad. I wouldn't rank any of them in a particular order, but Karlsson plays against the toughest competition (though he has looked very poor doing it) and the others look better against weaker competition.

Phillips and Corvo have been pretty awful this year. I've always defended Phillips and I think that he still could round back into form and be helpful in the playoffs, but he's been really hard to watch this year.

If I had to make pairings based on how well they've played I'd go with this:

Methot - Karlsson
Cowen - Ceci
Wiercioch/Phillips - Gryba

But that's just me.

I'd really like to highlight Ceci's play. He's just been so good since coming up. He can rush the puck, play well defensively, he wins physical battles and makes smart plays. One thing that really impresses me is how he gets up and down the ice so quickly -- he'll join a rush, but if he doesn't get the initial pass or his shot doesn't go in he doesn't wait around down low he always hustles back out to his spot to defend without hesitation. His shot is also wowowow. An absolute steal at 15. I know it's management's job to sell a pick to the fanbase, but when they say they had him in their top 5 I believe it.

This but Id play Gryba over Phillips or Weircioch....In fact Id trade Phillips and play both Weircioch and Gryba given the option.

 

[Xspyrit]

I do recognize that he's been struggling this year and he's been better in the past than he has this year. That's what's so frustrating about his game. The nonchalance you mentioned is maddening. But in comparison to the guy's in our own line-up he's much better and in an off-year he's better than their best year.

I don't think it's nonchalance...Ek is coming from a freak injury (thanks Matt Crook) and is having personal issues (which can affect any human being). He is not focused, his head is not 100% into the game. EK is a generational talent, I hope he is at least better than his peers. But do we compare Sidney Crosby to Brandon Sutter?

EK will come back strong next year with another Norris, providing he is healthy. I have faith in him

Josh Harding has a .933 SV% in 29 games. Craig Anderson has .902 SV% in 33 games. If you honestly think that doesn't have a huge effect on GA, you're crazy. Comparing the GA of Suter and Karlsson is completely pointless and yes, 100% wrong.

That argument is already covered... in the part you just quoted too :

Of course bounces, forwards work and goaltending have a lot to say in this

Don't know how do you expect me to say it another way... Don't think it's worth argumenting with you if you can't read properly and say that something is 100% wrong... Does it even exist outside of mathematics? There is no absolute truth in the universe, just primary numbers.

I noticed this. But I also noticed a lot of them dmen at the top are on bad defensive teams.

Yes, it's a team game (and I'm the first and most vocal to say this all the time when people around here keep scapegoating players) but it also reflects which are "risky" D-men. The thing I'm doing here is trying to put the light on the double standards this board has.

Cowen is very underrated defensively imo Dont both him and Gryba have some of the best defensive numbers on the team?

Game is not "pretty" and when he makes a bad play, people really notice it and harp on him for a while. Thing is EK does a lot of bad plays too (a lot more IMO) but since his game is electrifying, people forget very fast. In EK's case, his offensive game should always outweight the bad, at least for several years.

I have also been promoting playing Cowen with Ceci, I can understand the coach not wanting to play two young guys together but Ceci is a little more predictable & takes less risks. I would like to see if they would make a good pairing. I thought that when Wiercioch & Ceci played together in a few games this yr that they were very good but Wier needs to get back into a game for us to see this again but unfortunately I doubt Phillips is going to be benched.

Yes, it makes a lot of sense

Methot-Karlsson
Cowen-Ceci
Wiercioch-Phillips / Phillips-Gryba

Protecting a lead, just like every facet of the game isn't the job of two guys called defensemen.

While the Sens D is young and mistakes are going to be made, many of the D-Zone problems are a result of forwards not doing their jobs..

This. A very big factor, been saying it all year. Our forwards positioning is bad at times. When the team plays well, notice that the puck support is so much better than in games where they struggle.. Puck support and chemistry
are probably the biggest factors in the NHL.

The fact is until EK accepts the safe play is at times the best play it really doesn't matter who he plays with IMO.

And this. When EK gets more experience and improve his decision making, watch out, he's going to be even more a beast

Wiercioch 4th defensively?
Do you actually watch the games? He is dead last defensively just behind Karlsson. Offensively he is average 1/2 PPG.

There's watching the game and understanding the game. I think it's different when you played a lot of hockey or not. Impossible to see it the same way

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Karlsson plays a lot more minutes than anyone else, and against other teams best players. Because of this, yeah in total he'll probably have more defensive gaffs than others. Karlsson makes a ton of great defensive plays that you apparently don't notice. I don't think you'll find a single other poster rank him as low as you do. The fact that he gets so many minutes against top competition proves you're wrong.

Yea I dono, karlsson has been quite the defensive disaster this year, and most of the great defensive plays you speak of were because his speed. ( there were a few nice hits separating forwards from pucks). Hes the best O Dman in the league. Has a long way to go before hes top five overall Dman. Hes not weber suter keith doughty chara. We aren't going to win a cup with our top d man playing all his big minutes like a loose cannon on offence.