Guess who is nominated for the Norris?

[Jwec]

IMO Suter should be one of the finalists and perhaps the winner. And well done Burnzie for being a finalist. He deserves it and he would deserve to win the Norris as much as Suter. So Burns or Suter would be my pick but I think Norris winner is going to be Doughty. Also I don't get why Karlsson should win over Burns because Burns has been better at scoring/60, he scores way more goals and in my opinion Burns is also defensively better than Karlsson.

 

[weastern bias]

Karlsson is the only D to lead the league in assists other than Bobby Orr, he is more than worthy of a nom

I've made it clear that I think Suter is the best Defenseman in the league, so you won't see me arguing against him, lol

 

[Limekiller]

I think if the Sens had made the playoffs, Karlsson would have run away with this award. The fact that they did not is what makes this complicated. As others have noted, not once has the Norris EVER been given to a player on a non-playoff team. Never, in the entire history of the award. That's a pretty big hurdle to overcome. Especially since in points, he was only barely ahead of Burns.

That's one reason I think Doughty may win, actually. Karlsson and Burns will split a bunch of the voters: Karlsson from offensive minded voters who don't care about precedent, Burns from offensive minded voters that do, and Doughty gets most of the rest. Since "the rest" is probably more voters than the halves Burns & Karlsson will be getting, he'll backdoor his way into the award.

 

[DuckEatinShark]

Honestly they should change the Norris to the Karlsson award.

Look at the talent he plays with. And then look at the loaded talent that Burns plays with. To do what Karlsson did this year with all the points that he put up he deserves it.

 

[stator]

Karlsson deserves the Norris over Burns AINEC. No need for homerism. Burns keeps this level of defensive play up for 82 games next year then we can talk. Until then, Karlsson had a better year than Burns.

Only the current 82 games are considered for this year's trophy. I think you know this, and is why I'm not getting your point. Plus, I don't believe Karlsson has the stats above Burns this year. In fact, it should be the other way around. So, I am not getting your point at all.

If doughty deserves it (according to the media), then vlasic deserves it also.

Vlasic plays a safer game in the offensive zone compared to Doughty which is why Vlasic's offensive stats is usually somewhat less than Doughty year-in, year-out. I think there is some bias towards offense among the voters, so I would not expect to see Vlasic as a top-3 vote getter.

However, Vlasic has to be one of the league's top 3 underrated defensemen in the league, and arguably the most underrated. I'm fine with that as it probably results in a lower cap hit.

 

[Led Zappa]

Only the current 82 games are considered for this year's trophy. I think you know this, and is why I'm not getting your point.

You mean like a best actor Oscar always goes to the best actor in a movie that year instead of a lifetime achievement award?

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Only the current 82 games are considered for this year's trophy. I think you know this, and is why I'm not getting your point.




Vlasic plays a safer game in the offensive zone compared to Doughty which is why Vlasic's offensive stats is usually somewhat less than Doughty year-in, year-out. I think there is some bias towards offense among the voters, so I would not expect to see Vlasic as a top-3 vote getter.

However, Vlasic has to be one of the league's top 3 underrated defensemen in the league, and arguably the most underrated. I'm fine with that as it probably results in a lower cap hit.

Burns was a below average defensive player in the first half of the season. If he keeps this current level of defensive play up for 82 games next year he deserves it.

 

[do0glas]

My problem with karlsson is he's playing almost half of every game. So he has a tangible impact over a season in terms of goals against. 5v5 he's a negative/60. Burns and doughty are not.

So to me I feel karlsson sacrificed his defensive presence to score. Whether that was selfish or trying to win. It happened and I don't think it meets the spirit of the Norris to give it to him this year. When there just isn't enough separation from burns offensively.

 

[stator]

You mean like a best actor Oscar always goes to the best actor in a movie that year instead of a lifetime achievement award?

There's no lifetime achievement Norris award. Don't be silly, and you know better.

 

[stator]

Burns was a below average defensive player in the first half of the season. If he keeps this current level of defensive play up for 82 games next year he deserves it.

Yeah, but Karlsson was below average in the 2nd half. I guess you are saying that Burns doesn't deserve it this year that Karlsson was better.

Ok, I don't agree with you're thinking Karlsson was better but fine. We each see and evaluate differently. However, why do you believe that Burns should win next year with the nearly the same stats? You don't know what kind of a season the other candidates will turn in. Now you see my point?

 

[stator]

My problem with karlsson is he's playing almost half of every game. So he has a tangible impact over a season in terms of goals against. 5v5 he's a negative/60. Burns and doughty are not.

So to me I feel karlsson sacrificed his defensive presence to score. Whether that was selfish or trying to win. It happened and I don't think it meets the spirit of the Norris to give it to him this year. When there just isn't enough separation from burns offensively.

The Sens and Karlsson fans usually blame the coach for over playing Karlsson and causing a downturn in his performance in the 2nd half, from what I've been reading on HFboards for the past month.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Yeah, but Karlsson was below average in the 2nd half. I guess you are saying that Burns doesn't deserve it this year that Karlsson was better.

Ok, I don't agree with you're thinking Karlsson was better but fine. We each see and evaluate differently. However, why do you believe that Burns should win next year with the nearly the same stats? You don't know what kind of a season the other candidates will turn in. Now you see my point?

Karlsson was better the whole season. Look at the other Sens players compared to ours.

Karlsson is a negative 5v5/60 because he is asked to play half the game against he other team's best players, and his teammates suck.

 

[do0glas]

Karlsson was better the whole season. Look at the other Sens players compared to ours.

Karlsson is a negative 5v5/60 because he is asked to play half the game against he other team's best players, and his teammates suck.

That's one way of looking at it but he's clearly not as imposing defebsively when you watch him.

He also had a 2.75 GA/60 when his team had a 2.22 GA/60.

Where burns had a 2.22 GA/60 and SJ had a 1.99 GA/60

So he's just worse defebsively imo. But the fact is karlsson just didn't outdo burns offensively to a level that makes up for that.

Karlsson actually increased his scoring which correlates in some ways to a TOI increase. He is ottawas weapon. It starts with him. Which benefits in some ways. Kinda like you see kessel on the leafs vs pens.

 

[hohosaregood]

I dunno if Karlsson should be rewarded for being on a ****** ****** team. He probably wouldn't play 30 minutes a night if there were other defensemen on that team. Probably wouldn't have an offense that completely flowed through him either.

Might have an overall better season if he was being properly utilized though.

 

[hockeyball]

Karlsson was better the whole season. Look at the other Sens players compared to ours.

Karlsson is a negative 5v5/60 because he is asked to play half the game against he other team's best players, and his teammates suck.

He also played a TON more minutes than Burns and only had 5 more points. Imagine if Burns played those kind of minutes...

 

[OrrNumber4]

He also played a TON more minutes than Burns and only had 5 more points. Imagine if Burns played those kind of minutes...

Usually, playing more minutes is seen as a good thing. You could argue that Burns would produce more with more responsibility (ie, all the offense going through him), but you could also argue that Karlsson would be better surrounded by the talent Burns is surrounded with.

In this case, I tend to side with the latter. On practically any team in this league, Karlsson is going to get a lot of minutes, #1PP time, etc. The offense will flow through him because he is that damn talented. On the Sharks, he's just going to have people who can utilize him better, for lack of a better word.

 

[hockeyball]

Usually, playing more minutes is seen as a good thing. You could argue that Burns would produce more with more responsibility (ie, all the offense going through him), but you could also argue that Karlsson would be better surrounded by the talent Burns is surrounded with.

In this case, I tend to side with the latter. On practically any team in this league, Karlsson is going to get a lot of minutes, #1PP time, etc. The offense will flow through him because he is that damn talented. On the Sharks, he's just going to have people who can utilize him better, for lack of a better word.

I think all those things are true of Burns too. My point simply was if Burns was seeing 25 minutes a night he would have easily closed that 5 point gap. Points per 60, Burns was better than Karlsson.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I think all those things are true of Burns too. My point simply was if Burns was seeing 25 minutes a night he would have easily closed that 5 point gap. Points per 60, Burns was better than Karlsson.

The counterpart would be that if Karlsson replaced Burns on the Sharks (playing the same minutes), Karlsson might have had even better numbers.

I mean...Karlsson is able to control a game offensively like few others. Not since 90s Coffey have I seen a d-man like him.

Actually, that is another point in Karlssons' favour. Burns is primarily a triggerman (though that is slightly downplaying his creativity, passing, and dangling skills), but Karlsson is a masterous manager of the puck...he makes everyone around him better.

 

[Kcoyote3]

There's no lifetime achievement Norris award. Don't be silly, and you know better.

We'll see how you feel about that statement when Doughty wins it this year. He's going to win it for his body of work and it being "his time".

 

[Eid Ma Clack Shaw]

I want Burns to win.

Karlsson deserves the win.

Doughty will probably win.

Karlsson had an insane season on a ****** team. Like one of the best seasons by a d-man in years. He nearly dragged the Sens into the playoffs. Where would that Sens team be without him?

Burns also had an insane season. I think you can make the case for either Karlsson or Burns, but...c'mon. Karlsson had the first point per game season as a d-man since Lidstrom and did so in a low scoring era and without likely any other future hall of famers on his team. We are lucky enough to all be witnessing these guys night in and night out.

Doughty...not so much. He has a chance to win based on reputation. He's great, but there's no way in hell he had a better season than Karlsson or Burns did.

 

[Jwec]

I want Burns to win.

Karlsson deserves the win.

Doughty will probably win.

Karlsson had an insane season on a ****** team. Like one of the best seasons by a d-man in years. He nearly dragged the Sens into the playoffs. Where would that Sens team be without him?

Burns also had an insane season. I think you can make the case for either Karlsson or Burns, but...c'mon. Karlsson had the first point per game season as a d-man since Lidstrom and did so in a low scoring era and without likely any other future hall of famers on his team. We are lucky enough to all be witnessing these guys night in and night out.

Doughty...not so much. He has a chance to win based on reputation. He's great, but there's no way in hell he had a better season than Karlsson or Burns did.

Mike Green had two over point per game seasons on 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 and he was a plus player both of these seasons (and quite wide margin). Still didn't win the Norris. He also scored over 30-goals on 2008-2009 season. If Mike Green didn't win the Norris back then I think Karlsson shouldn't win it either.

 

[Barrie22]

The counterpart would be that if Karlsson replaced Burns on the Sharks (playing the same minutes), Karlsson might have had even better numbers.

I mean...Karlsson is able to control a game offensively like few others. Not since 90s Coffey have I seen a d-man like him.

Actually, that is another point in Karlssons' favour. Burns is primarily a triggerman (though that is slightly downplaying his creativity, passing, and dangling skills), but Karlsson is a masterous manager of the puck...he makes everyone around him better.

Karlsson would not be controlling the game here in san jose though. The systrm just is not set up that way. And to be honest as long as thornton is on the team no defensemen will be the catalyst of the offense.

 

[Sharksfan83]

If voting was done after the POs how much of a difference would have it made? Even if he under performs from here on in. 12GP 5G 11A.

 

[Sharksfan83]

FWIW Vlasic this season has 79GP 8G 39A for 47points.

Yes yes alot of secondary assists in that, still..

 

[stator]

FWIW Vlasic this season has 79GP 8G 39A for 47points.

Yes yes alot of secondary assists in that, still..

Probably not for a defenseman. Vlasic is ranked 24th in the league for assists among defensemen in this regular season. Over a third above him have either the same amount of goals or less goals scored.