Dan Kelly
Registered User
- Sep 27, 2017
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Or you can watch a highlight reel of Joonas Donskoi and think he's the greatest player of all time.
i'd say stop drinking the Kool-Aide but what's the point?
Or you can watch a highlight reel of Joonas Donskoi and think he's the greatest player of all time.
Gretzky is probably not even a top-3 goal scorer all time. You can argue he's not top-5. Howe almost never comes up in these discussions and I would rate him at least even with Gretzky.
You think that one could legitimately argue that there are five goal scorers greater than Gretzky? It seems like a stretch to me.
He's got the 50 in 39.
He's got the 92 goal season.
He's got 17, 15, 13 as his best playoffs.
He's got the most career hat tricks.
And then there's the 894 elephant in the room, which could have been much higher for two legitimate reasons. First, his back wasn't the same after 1991. Second, career-wise he generally wasn't a "shoot-first" type of player, but leaned more toward play-making (in '86 he basically said he wanted to set some kind of unbreakable assist record).
I'm not especially a fan of Gretzky, but it is pretty hard to argue against the guy. I think Mario Lemieux was a more talented goal scorer, but still not greater. It would be hard for me to argue that there are five greater. Very hard.
I'm curious to see who you got, and more importantly, why?
You can easily argue for five. Gordie, Bobby Hull, Ovechkin, Mario, Richard. That's five right there with comparable or better goal scoring achievements.
Gretzky just seems unreachable to some folks because of the era in which he played. But once you look at the numbers in their context, it's clear he's just one of the guys.
I have discussions about topics like this all the time and whenever I bring up the fact that Wayne led the league in scoring just 5 times, that often surprises people. But it's true. Just five times. Same as Gordie and Rocket. Less than Bobby. Less than OV. Only Mario trails him here.
Past or present, if I can select any forward to take a penalty shot, it's going to be Lemieux.
Past or present, if I can select any forward to take a penalty shot, it's going to be Lemieux.
That said, you are clearly not applying proper context to the numbers. And Gretzky is definitely not just "one of the guys."
You do understand that Gretzky winning the scoring title "just" 5 times, as a centre, it actually enhances his status as a goal scorer? Especially when considering the amplified play-driving/playmaking responsibilities of a centre, and the requisite assist/goal ratios most often associated with said duty. His goal scoring titles are actually substantively more impressive when examined beyond a superficial (or era-adjusted) level.
Peruse the list of single-season goal scoring leaders. Historically, they are overwhelmingly wingers and there's a reason why that is the case. As a matter of fact, over the past 70 years, only 9 unique centres have led (or tied) the league in single-season goal scoring.
In combination with his positional responsibility (offensively) and his otherworldly assist/goal ratios during that run, his titles are particularly imposing relative to 'goal hunters' with 1/1 (or lower) ratios. I'm dazzled when any player consistently scores at an extraordinary rate over a given number of seasons. When also leading with complementary high assist/goal ratios, well that's absolutely extraordinary. As an example, I suggest that Brett Hull scoring 86 goals with a 0.52 assist/goal ratio is inherently less impressive than Gretzky scoring 92 with a 1.30 assist/goal ratio.
Playmaking centres often break down scoring opportunities more selflessly, slightly reducing their actual goal scoring potential. Can we say the same for some of those goal hungry wingers?
That's a relevant scenario for about one fifth of one percent of all goals.
Giving Gretzky credit for the scoring he didn't do, but could have done, is like saying that Ty Cobb is a great home run hitter who just chose to not hit home runs. This doesn't make much sense to me.
Howe was still an elite scorer way into his 30s, whereas Gretzky was no longer one after his mid-20s. That's also context.
Gretzky (or Lemieux for that matter) at 22 years old is almost certainly the leading goal scorer in any era.
Well, that's fine, except for the fact that Gretzky isn't Ty Cobb. He's Babe Ruth. It's a little difficult to argue the player who has the most home runs in a single season, and all-time is not a lock as a a top three home run hitter ever. Especially if they were famous for holding back and stroking for singles with runners on base. The latter being akin to Gretzky looking for a higher percentage plays, rather than attempting to do it himself.
He certainly was one after his mid-20s. He scored 54 goals at the age of 28. That's still very elite. On top of that, it's incredibly likely Gretzky was capable of scoring 50 goals annually until the 1991-92 season. He just started shooting less and playing the perimeter more, likely understanding his small frame wasn't going to hold up in the higher scoring areas as he approached the downslope of his 30s. If you like referring to hockey-reference, check out his shot totals and shooting percentages as supporting evidence. I'll even suggest that if Gretzky didn't have his back significantly damaged during the '91 Canada Cup, he was probable to remain as a threat to score 50 until about 1995.
I wasn't able to follow the NHL before 2011, but from what I heard and observed, I thought Mike Bossy was the best pure goal scorer since the expansion.
Highest GPG and Most consecutive 50+ goal seasons (9 out the 10 he played)...It's one of those things people sometimes say. The numbers don't bear that out.
Highest GPG and Most consecutive 50+ goal seasons (9 out the 10 he played)...
He played at the same time Gretzky did.In the highest scoring era of the NHL ever, leading the league in goals only twice.
You know how many 50 goal seasons there were in the 1980s? 76.
In the last decade (2010-2020)? 8.
He played at the same time Gretzky did.
The guy who hit the most home runs in a single season, before Barry Bonds broke that record, was Roger Maris. Hardly the best home run hitter ever.
The point I'm making here is that it's silly to take raw stats as seriously as you do.
In full context, if you adjust Gretzky's numbers properly - which you can do yourself, or by simply looking at hockey-reference - you'll see that he doesn't stand out all that much.
Apply a little bit of context to these numbers, compared to Lemieux, Gretzky, Hull, Ovechkin and so on how many games did Bossy play past the age of 30? Do you think he would have kept scoring at similar rates until 38?Highest GPG and Most consecutive 50+ goal seasons (9 out the 10 he played)...
If I merely look at hockey-reference and 'adjust' Gretzky's numbers properly, he still tops out at 69 goals and 170 points relative to the current period. That's kinda standing out 'that much' in the current era. Do I think he could attain 170 points in today's NHL? In my opinion the odds of that are approaching zero. Likewise for 69 goals.
Conceivably, you can put down the calculator and stop thinking you've figured everything out? There are no definable conclusions when it comes to athletic statistics across eras. You are simply guessing, as is everyone else.
Gretzky had the ability to be the greatest scorer of all time. He chose winning over being the top goal scorer every year. 200 pts with goals spread around still puts up more points for the team than 150 pts with 90 scored by him.The guy who hit the most home runs in a single season, before Barry Bonds broke that record, was Roger Maris. Hardly the best home run hitter ever.
Meanwhile the guy with the all-time home run record, before Bonds also broke that record, was Hank Aaron. Aaron is worth bringing up here because he would have hit many more career home runs, had his career not overlapped with the dreaded "dead ball era," which was dominated by low-scoring environments. Something completely out of his control.
The point I'm making here is that it's silly to take raw stats as seriously as you do. They're misleading because they are taking things out of context. Look closer and you might just realize that your idols are quite mortal.
Again, the "Gretzky was still an elite scorer, but decided not to be" is not as good an argument as you think.