Gretzky isn't the greatest goal scorer?

Zuluss

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May 19, 2011
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At the end of the day, factors such as health have to be considered in the conversation.

There may be guys who were more dangerous goal scorers, at their peaks or at their healthiest, but for a variety of reasons they didn't finish close to Gretzky.

Gretzky's combination of skill, overall health, and longevity make him the greatest.

Longevity and Gretzky's goal-scoring are not exactly the two things that should be mentioned together.
Gretzky did not finish in top3 again after he won his last goal-scoring title at the age of 26. Even worse, he had 1 top5 finish and two top20 finishes after 26, which is really very little even for a much smaller goal-scorer (for comparison, Howe, Richard, Ovechkin, Bobby Hull all won scoring titles after 30, Richard finished 2nd at 34 and 35, etc.)
Health was definitely a factor in Gretzky's case, but a negative one: he played 64 games in 87-88, 73 in 89-90, and in 1990 (I think) his back problems started, after which he was effectively done as a goal-scorer. While he did not look close to winning another goal-scoring title after 86/87 (when he won his last one), I'd think he probably had a few more top10 finishes in him if perfectly healthy.
 

blogofmike

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Comparitive advantage on powerplays hurt Gretzky's goal totals.

The Oilers and Kings received fewer PP opportunities the the rest of the league in most years before 1991 (when the back problems REALLY affected him. The 1990 back injury really only kiboshed his 1990 playoffs.)

But Wayne was always more of a pass-first player, but this was even more pronounced on the PP. Without looking, I can easily assume his PPG/PPA ratio was probably more PPA-heavy than anyone on else the Top Goalscorers of All Time list. After a 6th place finish in ES goals, in 1979-80, Gretzky is Top 3 through 1987. He's 4th in 2 of the next 4 years, and misses the top 10 in the injury-shortened 88 and 90 seasons. 1992 onwards, he's not an elite goal scorer, except for a few notable playoff runs.

But in an era where top goalscorers were racking up PP goals, Gretzky was racking up PP assists instead. And at his peak, he could still lead the league total goals without scoring any PP goals.
 

KCC

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Aug 15, 2007
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Just saw the great one on TV. Does anyone know anything about his health cause to me he does not look to good. Hope he is OK.

What about looking at him made you think he's in bad health? Just wondering as I haven't gotten to see any interviews of him in a while.
 

Riptide

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Dec 29, 2011
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What about looking at him made you think he's in bad health? Just wondering as I haven't gotten to see any interviews of him in a while.

On HNIC on Saturday, they interviewed him. He looked like he had aged a LOT over the last little while. He's only 56... but he looked 65+. He's gained some weight, developed some droop in his cheeks, and has some blotches on his face.
 
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squaleca

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Jan 3, 2017
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ok back it up compare their first 15 seasons in the league and dont just state a opinion based facts speak louder than opinions
 

DannyGallivan

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first 10 years didnt count the minus diff between bossy and gretz due to both players missing significant games


gret had 51 goals bossy had 53 +2 bossy had 2 more goals than wayne
gret had 55 goals bossy had 69 +14 in favor of bossy
gret had 92 goals bossy had 51 -42 in favor of wayne
gret had 71 goals bossy had 68 -3 in favor of wayne
gret had 87 goals bossy had 64 -23 in favor of wayne
73 60 -13
52 51 -1
62 58 -4
40 64gp 61
54 38 63 games played

only listed 6 years for Mario for obvious reasons
on a side not gretz 87 goals in 74 games is the highest gpg avg higher than the 92 goal season would have been 94 goals had u avg over 80 games

Mario had 85 goals in 76 games

stats show that some what close Wayne Gretzky in his Prime when he wanted to cause his Numbers clearly show later in his career that he didnt care about goal scoring as much that hes the greatest goal scorer in nhl history
Both Bobby Hull and Ovechkin led the league in goals more seasons than Gretzky, and way more than Bossy. And Hull left a few productive goal scoring seasons on the shelf when he went to the WHA.

And it's not that Gretzky "didn't care" about scoring goals (I mean really... who doesn't care about scoring goals???) it's more likely that he lost a step due to age and a bad back and simply didn't have that step to get in the open or to create space like he used to (and he was never that fast to begin with). He still had his otherwordly vision and ability to deliver passes, which is why his assists totals were still pretty good.
 

Albatros

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And it's not that Gretzky "didn't care" about scoring goals (I mean really... who doesn't care about scoring goals???) it's more likely that he lost a step due to age and a bad back and simply didn't have that step to get in the open or to create space like he used to (and he was never that fast to begin with). He still had his otherwordly vision and ability to deliver passes, which is why his assists totals were still pretty good.

Also goaltending and defensive play simply changed a lot during this period and Gretzky didn't have the tools to adapt fully.
 
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Perfect_Drug

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I think plenty of people don't consider Gretzky the greatest goal scorer, simply because in their tiny little brains, they can't comprehend that someone can be BOTH a playmaker and a goal scorer. They think you HAVE to fit into a tiny little box.

Gretzky didn't have an insanely hard shot, and almost none of his goals came from one-timing a pass. (But he probably had the best backhand in NHL history till this day).

When I saw him live, what you would see is Gretzky looking left, then wide, and shooting top corner on his off-foot.
Or Gretzky looking across, then faking like a running back a few times to get the defender to collapse, then firing it in short side.
The direction he looked was so insanely deceptive. He just winded up to throw everyone off, then passed to where nobody was looking. Or shot where the puck wasn't supposed to go.

Here's a breakdown of a typical Gretzky move in 2017 by a coach. It's a typical shoulder drop cut to the middle that a running back would do (but with a shot fake on the correct foot to sell it):


It's a lot of smaller things you don't really notice in old 320 x 240i CTR footage recorded on SLP speed on a 2-head VCR.
Don't pay attention to the goals, just look at his fake-outs. NOBODY Else did this. Everytime he looped around, the defender thought he would pass, or cut. Everytime he cut, the defender thought he would pass.


So when Gretzky scored such a crazy volume of goals, a lot of them don't look like traditional snipes. His shot was usually a total surprise. Even with the windup. You had to have seen him in person to see how f***ed up this all was to watch.

Whenever he winds up and snipes it in, what you didn't see was the 3-4 other times that game he faked a shot, and passed it to the player parked at the side of the goal. OF COURSE the goalie went to that side, Gretzky was faking shots the entire game, and feeding a winger. The One time he winds up and slapped it in, the goalie was thinking he would pass.

The closest thing I can think of, was how it somehow resembled Michael Jordan's head-faking.

I know this is basketball, but this is the most Gretzky-esque pass I've seen since we got High-Def.



Imagine a hockey player who could just routinely fakeout everyone, get the entire defense and teams going the wrong way, and scoring on what looks to be a fakeout or an accident, on a no-looker.

Because that's what Gretzky did.


His goals.. might not look great on old footage, but it's him basically trolling the league with fake outs, off foot button hooks, faked shots, fake cuts, cutting when you think he's faking, shooting when you think he's passing.

It's not "parked in the slot like Hull waiting for a one-timer". It's not end to end Lemieux/McDavid/Bure.


All I can say, is if you saw him live, you'd know why everyone in Edmonton believed he was the greatest goal scorer. It just doesn't fit into a traditional "box" of what you envision a pure goal scorer to look like.
 
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abo9

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I think plenty of people don't consider Gretzky the greatest goal scorer, simply because in their tiny little brains, they can't comprehend that someone can be BOTH a playmaker and a goal scorer. They think you HAVE to fit into a tiny little box.

Gretzky didn't have an insanely hard shot, and almost none of his goals came from one-timing a pass. (But he probably had the best backhand in NHL history till this day).

When I saw him live, what you would see is Gretzky looking left, then wide, and shooting top corner on his off-foot.
Or Gretzky looking across, then faking like a running back a few times to get the defender to collapse, then firing it in short side.
The direction he looked was so insanely deceptive. He just winded up to throw everyone off, then passed to where nobody was looking. Or shot where the puck wasn't supposed to go.

Here's a breakdown of a typical Gretzky move in 2017 by a coach. It's a typical shoulder drop cut to the middle that a running back would do (but with a shot fake on the correct foot to sell it):


It's a lot of smaller things you don't really notice in old 320 x 240i CTR footage recorded on SLP speed on a 2-head VCR.
Don't pay attention to the goals, just look at his fake-outs. NOBODY Else did this. Everytime he looped around, the defender thought he would pass, or cut. Everytime he cut, the defender thought he would pass.


So when Gretzky scored such a crazy volume of goals, a lot of them don't look like traditional snipes. His shot was usually a total surprise. Even with the windup. You had to have seen him in person to see how f***ed up this all was to watch.

Whenever he winds up and snipes it in, what you didn't see was the 3-4 other times that game he faked a shot, and passed it to the player parked at the side of the goal. OF COURSE the goalie went to that side, Gretzky was faking shots the entire game, and feeding a winger. The One time he winds up and slapped it in, the goalie was thinking he would pass.

The closest thing I can think of, was how it somehow resembled Michael Jordan's head-faking.

I know this is basketball, but this is the most Gretzky-esque pass I've seen since we got High-Def.



Imagine a hockey player who could just routinely fakeout everyone, get the entire defense and teams going the wrong way, and scoring on what looks to be a fakeout or an accident, on a no-looker.

Because that's what Gretzky did.


His goals.. might not look great on old footage, but it's him basically trolling the league with fake outs, off foot button hooks, faked shots, fake cuts, cutting when you think he's faking, shooting when you think he's passing.

It's not "parked in the slot like Hull waiting for a one-timer". It's not end to end Lemieux/McDavid/Bure.


All I can say, is if you saw him live, you'd know why everyone in Edmonton believed he was the greatest goal scorer. It just doesn't fit into a traditional "box" of what you envision a pure goal scorer to look like.


I'm too young to have seen him play live sadly. But, from the old footage, it looks like he was using his stick and skates to their fullest instead of as an extension of one's arm and feet. (for a glaring example of what I mean at 4:25 in your video). As if he saw what the bottom of his stick saw and could take full advantage of it
 

Thenameless

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I think Lemieux is the greatest goalscorer ever. It seemed like he could simply put the puck wherever the goalie wasn't, so it didn't really matter what the goalie did.

Yes, he had pin-point accuracy whether it was a one-timer, or on the move with a deke.
 

Rpenny

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Feb 23, 2019
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Love this thread. Some posters are taking 5 or 6 years of a players career and pointing there there--proves it

From 1979 to 1994 so 15 years
goals scored
51/55/92/71/87/73/62/40/54/41/31/16(lockout season)/38 for 711 goals
Alex O in 16 seasons has 706 goals

anyone taking snips of a 5 year span is just making themselves look silly. We are talking about all time and that means entire careers not just snipits up it
 

abo9

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Love this thread. Some posters are taking 5 or 6 years of a players career and pointing there there--proves it

From 1979 to 1994 so 15 years
goals scored
51/55/92/71/87/73/62/40/54/41/31/16(lockout season)/38 for 711 goals
Alex O in 16 seasons has 706 goals

anyone taking snips of a 5 year span is just making themselves look silly. We are talking about all time and that means entire careers not just snipits up it

What are you arguing here? That Ovechkin, or Gretzky is the better goal scorer?
 

Svane

Registered User
Jul 5, 2020
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Love this thread. Some posters are taking 5 or 6 years of a players career and pointing there there--proves it

From 1979 to 1994 so 15 years
goals scored
51/55/92/71/87/73/62/40/54/41/31/16(lockout season)/38 for 711 goals
Alex O in 16 seasons has 706 goals

anyone taking snips of a 5 year span is just making themselves look silly. We are talking about all time and that means entire careers not just snipits up it
Ovechkin has played 15 seasons not 16. And its hard to tell what your point is considering Gretzky scored slightly more goals, in a massively higher scoring era.

Mostly everyone knows that Ovechkin has the far longer prime as a goalscorer, while Gretzkys argument comes from peak which is arguably a tier ahead of Ovie.
 

Fixxer

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Jul 28, 2016
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Mario was best.
Gretzky pumped up his totals in the brutal Smythe Conference.
I'm on Lemieux side but Gretzky had an amazing Slapshot. With a bad back after '91, he wasn't as dynamic.
Kinda weird how Lemieux was injury prone BUT always produced at a ridiculous rate up to his retirement.
 

voyageur

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Jul 10, 2011
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Mario was best.
Gretzky pumped up his totals in the brutal Smythe Conference.

Gretzky played in the free wheeling era, players didn't backcheck hard, and the 1-4 was non existant.

Lemieux was a magician, I thought he was better than Gretzky from about 87 on.

One thing I'll say is that Ovechkin probably wouldn't have scored so many one timers playing in Gretzky's era, with wooden sticks. Can't say that the change in equipment didn't help him. In fact the torque he puts into his shots surely would have broken many a Sherwood.
 
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Oddbob

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Jan 21, 2016
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Oh dear to the people making excuses for how many goals Gretzky scored! MAJOR FACEPALM!!!!! If you watched him play you could see he was light years ahead of almost all competition.
 

ijuka

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May 14, 2016
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I think Gratzky was much more of a playmaker who just happened to also score goals.

Him also having the goal-scoring record in spite of that just goes to show how good he was in every facet of the game.
 

Dan Kelly

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Sep 27, 2017
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No, I mean slapshot.

Even if you never saw Gretzky live, go watch any of his highlight videos and see how many goals he scores off his slapshot, or off his fake slapshot because the goalie is hyperaware of how accurate it can be.

I'm not talking about a sneaky slapshot either, although he did have that in his repertoire too. I'm talking times where he completely telegraphs the slapshot and he still beats the goalie clean.

And while goaltending back then wasn't up to the standard that it is today, not everyone was scoring 70+ goals a year either.

For any of the younger generation that plays the EA NHL games these days, think of someone that could do the slapshot cheese short AND far side pretty much whenever he wanted to.



His slapshot at 2:38 is ridiculous. He stops on a dime, turns his body around, winds up and fires a shot with velocity top stick side all in one motion.


for those who think Gretzky wasn't the greatest player in NHL history as well as the greatest goal scorer and greatest play maker just need to watch this video to be reminded ! o_O
 
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Fantomas

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Aug 7, 2012
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Gretzky is probably not even a top-3 goal scorer all time. You can argue he's not top-5. Howe almost never comes up in these discussions and I would rate him at least even with Gretzky.
 
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Albatros

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Aug 19, 2017
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for those who think Gretzky wasn't the greatest player in NHL history as well as the greatest goal scorer and greatest play maker just need to watch this video to be reminded ! o_O

Or you can watch a highlight reel of Joonas Donskoi and think he's the greatest player of all time.
 

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