Gretzky isn't the greatest goal scorer?

blood gin

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Jan 17, 2017
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Why are there so many threads from people trying to bring down how great Wayne Gretzky was? He was and is the best player of all time, both numbers (No one is even in his ball park) and watching him play prove this.

Because when you see greatness of that level you're in disbelief, jealous, and want to bring it down and make it seem as ordinary as possible. It's STILL happening with Gretzky. And he got used to this stuff early. When he was a child prodigy he regularly got booed around Canada too from parents who'd had enough.

I mean come on already. It looked at times like Gretzky was exhibiting telepathy. Nobody has performed on that level since.
 

squaleca

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Jan 3, 2017
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even if you change the order gpg from last to first waynes still at the top truly incrediable
 

Wondercarrot

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Pure goalscorer, no. Playmaker, easily.

its like people think that to be the greatest goal scorer ever or a 'pure' goal scorer he has to suck as a playmaker.
Wayne Gretzky is the greatest goal scorer of all-time, he is the greatest playmaker of all time.
It was obvious if you watched him play from '79 to '88, its obvious if you look at the numbers - its just plain obvious.

For christs sake as a 37 yr old with a broken back he finished 3rd in NHL scoring ahead of IN THEIR prime stars like Selanne, Forsberg, Leclair, Pallfy, Sundin, Bure, Sakic, and 10 pts back of the dominant Jagr.

When Gretz was in his prime, those equivalent stars (Savard, Dionne, Hawerhcuk, Bossy, Trottier, Stastny, Sittler, Lafleur etc etc etc) were buried 100pts behind him lol
 

Jumptheshark

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first 10 years didnt count the minus diff between bossy and gretz due to both players missing significant games


gret had 51 goals bossy had 53 +2 bossy had 2 more goals than wayne
gret had 55 goals bossy had 69 +14 in favor of bossy
gret had 92 goals bossy had 51 -42 in favor of wayne
gret had 71 goals bossy had 68 -3 in favor of wayne
gret had 87 goals bossy had 64 -23 in favor of wayne
73 60 -13
52 51 -1
62 58 -4
40 64gp 61
54 38 63 games played

only listed 6 years for Mario for obvious reasons
on a side not gretz 87 goals in 74 games is the highest gpg avg higher than the 92 goal season would have been 94 goals had u avg over 80 games

Mario had 85 goals in 76 games

stats show that some what close Wayne Gretzky in his Prime when he wanted to cause his Numbers clearly show later in his career that he didnt care about goal scoring as much that hes the greatest goal scorer in nhl history


Lets just look at the ten years he was an oilers

626 or 62.6 a year

I love it when people bring out two or three year periods--but from an academic point---ten years is better for making an argument stick because who have a long set of markers to compare.

The Bossy argument is hindered by the fact of his health.

I picked ten years as the marker because that is how long Bossy played for and scored 573 or 57.3 a year 62.6 is greater then 57.3--

when talking historical data you use hard facts and statistics-- "only ifs" are not factored into actual data comparisons. Both played at the same time and anyone who says Gretz was never roughed up never watched any battle of alberta games
 

Jumptheshark

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In my humble opinion, no, Gretzky isn't the best goal scorer. To me, Lemieux is.


Mario's first 10 years 494 or 49.4 goals a year vs 62.6 for Wayne and if you want to add the 11th is 680 wayne to marios 563

Both Mario and Bossy played the same time --you can say "only if they stayed healthy" as much as you like--but Wayne did stay healthy
 

Zuluss

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its like people think that to be the greatest goal scorer ever or a 'pure' goal scorer he has to suck as a playmaker.
Wayne Gretzky is the greatest goal scorer of all-time, he is the greatest playmaker of all time.
It was obvious if you watched him play from '79 to '88, its obvious if you look at the numbers - its just plain obvious

It is not obvious at all if you look at the best goal-scorers of all-time and pitch Gretzky against them.

Here are the numbers of goal-scoring titles, as well as top3, top5, top10 finishes:

Howe: 5*1st, 12*top3, 14*top5, 19*top10
Hull: 7*1st, 10*top3, 12*top5, 13*top10
Richard: 5*1st, 9*top3, 13*top5, 14*top10
Ovechkin: 6*1st, 8*top3, 10*top5, 10*top10
Gretzky: 5*1st, 5*top3, 8*top5, 9*top10

Do you see how Gretzky is different from the other top5 goal-scorers ever? His goal-scoring arc is very Brett-Hull-esque: outside of his goal-scoring titles (and folks in this super-elite group have as many as he does, if not more) - outside of those 5 seasons, he is never in top3 again, sticks around in top5-top10 for much fewer seasons (unless you compare him to Ovechkin, who is not done yet), and then drops out of top20 for good after age 28, whereas the other four keep winning goal-scoring titles and collecting top3-top5 finishes after 30.

How do the peaks compare? Let's look at % leads over #10 in goals:

Hull: 108-93-92-79-71-63-56-47-32-22-19-19-15
Howe: 145-105-96-83-58-57-52-46-32-30-29-27-22-19-16-8-4-0
Richard: 117-100-80-76-73-58-40-38-35-17-14-13

Gretzky: 85-84-59-48-48-17-15-13-9
Ovechkin: 63-61-52-52-50-44-43-30-15-6
Brett Hull: 91-67-60-24-12-0-0-0

Well, the only guy Gretzky's peak goal-scoring compares favorably with is Ovechkin. Bobby Hull, Howe, Richard doubled or almost doubled #10's goals 2-3 times, Gretzky came close, but not as close as them twice, and after that they kept posting 60-70% leads for 2-3 seasons, and then had a few seasons with 40-50% leads over 10th, while Gretzky's leads declined much faster. 4th best season for Gretzky (in terms of % lead over 10th) would be 8th best for Hull and Howe, 7th best for Richard and 6th best for Ovechkin.

Now, it may be the case that leads over 10th were wider in the Original Six era. I once played with average % leads over 10th for the goal-scoring race winner, for the runner-up, etc., comparing Original Six to post-1996 low scoring era and concluded that the % leads today are about 60% of what they were back then (e.g., if Bobby Hull led the 10th place by 108% in his best season, today he probably would have led by 0.6*108%=65%).
1970-95, according to these calculations, are somewhere in between: goal-scoring % leads then were 10-15% larger than today, but 20-25% smaller than in the Original Six era. So let's do a crude adjustment that would favor Gretzky: let's multiply the % leads by Howe, Hull, and Richard by 0.7

Hull (adj): 76-65-65-55-49-44-39-33-22-16-13-13-11
Howe (adj): 102-73-67-58-41-40-37-32-22-21-19-16-13-12-11-6-3-0
Richard (adj): 82-70-61-56-53-51-41-28-26-25-12-10-9

Gretzky: 85-84-59-48-48-17-15-13-9
Ovechkin: 63-61-52-52-50-44-43-30-15-6

Best three seasons are close now, but outside of that Hull, Howe, and Richard keep going and going, while Gretzky kind of keeps up for two more seasons (48-48 vs. 55-49, 58-41, 56-53) and then the spread just widens and widens.

Just to give you a benchmark: Iginla won his two Richards with the leads of 41% and 24% over #10. So, when we are looking at 6th best or 8th best seasons by Hull, Howe, Richard, Ovechkin and see the leads over 10th of >30%, those are meaningful leads, it is not like these guys are just hanging in there beating #10 by a few goals (in contrast to Gretzky, who did just hang in closer to the end of top10 in goals for a few seasons outside of his 5 best ones).
 
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shazariahl

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I am a Lemieux fan, and I can't say who is the greatest goal scorer ever. But Gretzky had an amazing shot.

His slapshot always confused me. It seemed like, especially in his early NHL years, the equivalent of an awkward 12-year-old trying it out for the first time. But it was very hard and amazingly accurate. The other thing I found was that everyone used to say that Gretzky was a pass first player, but I don't think that was really true. Gretzky had a ton of assists because he controlled the play so much and obviously was an amazing passer, but I think that if someone ever ran the statistics of him on 2-on-1s during his oilers days they would find that he probably shot a little more than half the time. He always led the Oilers in shots on goal (except his injury-shortened last season) led the league in shots on goal 4 seasons (and just missed a fifth due to injury), and even in his later years often led his team in shots (hell in 1997 at age 36 he not only led the Rangers in shots on goal, but was 14th in the league).
No, I mean slapshot.

Even if you never saw Gretzky live, go watch any of his highlight videos and see how many goals he scores off his slapshot, or off his fake slapshot because the goalie is hyperaware of how accurate it can be.

I'm not talking about a sneaky slapshot either, although he did have that in his repertoire too. I'm talking times where he completely telegraphs the slapshot and he still beats the goalie clean.

And while goaltending back then wasn't up to the standard that it is today, not everyone was scoring 70+ goals a year either.

For any of the younger generation that plays the EA NHL games these days, think of someone that could do the slapshot cheese short AND far side pretty much whenever he wanted to.



His slapshot at 2:38 is ridiculous. He stops on a dime, turns his body around, winds up and fires a shot with velocity top stick side all in one motion.


I know what you mean about the slapshot - this video posted earlier shows a lot of those types of goals. But I think one thing often overlooked about Gretzky's shot is what you just mentioned in your post - it often looks rather awkward. I think it's because he uses a lot of pauses to throw the timing off and freeze the goalie or the Dmen. He wasn't just accurate; Gretzky was like a great stage magician. He'd get you thinking pass, then he'd shoot. You'd think shot, and he'd pass. You'd KNOW he was going to shoot, but he'd hesitate just that extra half second at the top of his wind up, while also drifting slightly to one side, just to pull you a little farther that way, then shoot back against your momentum that half second later than you were expecting. He'd cross the D, then use that Dman as a screen. He'd cross both D, draw them both to him, then pass it off to someone who was now wide open. Its ridiculous how many of these slapshots he scores while moving laterally across the ice, pulling players one direction or another. And of course, there's the accuracy. Every single one of these shots is in the corner, or just inside the post, or right under the crossbar. It's ridiculous. There are plenty of people who had harder slapshots than Gretzky, but I don't think anyone ever had a better slapshot than him.
 

Blade Paradigm

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Some mentions of Bure, Selanne, Hull, and Bossy here, so I've used Zuluss' method to calculate the % leads for those players.
Tone down the drama and exaggeration.

Ill fully admit he can deke and skate around great players. No debate there. But he also cherry picked a TON, hovering in that sweet spot trying to pick off a pass and playing the puck instead of the man.

In either case, my main point was Bure was an individualist. His strength was carrying the puck, making his own space and doing it almost alone. Putting him with a playmaking center(who generally are most effective carrying the puck while the goalscorers try to drift to those unguarded spots) would work against his style. He was very one dimensional. It was an amazing electric dimension. Fun as hell to watch. Incredible at times. But still one dimensional.

Now if you put Bure with a Strong transition game Dman who could make that first pass, it would work to his strengths a hell of a lot more than a playmaking center.

In any case, the point is moot. My quote of you was more pointing out your erroneous reasoning that Bossy's numbers were inflated due to teammates, posted evidence of how he did without Trottier as opposed to vice versa(Trottier needs Bossy more than Bossy needs Trottier and Potvin was declining rapidly) and you predictably evaded it.

I get that you want to plug your boy Bure. But you are not going to find allies anywhere that he was better than Bossy.
its like people think that to be the greatest goal scorer ever or a 'pure' goal scorer he has to suck as a playmaker.
Wayne Gretzky is the greatest goal scorer of all-time, he is the greatest playmaker of all time.
It was obvious if you watched him play from '79 to '88, its obvious if you look at the numbers - its just plain obvious.

For christs sake as a 37 yr old with a broken back he finished 3rd in NHL scoring ahead of IN THEIR prime stars like Selanne, Forsberg, Leclair, Pallfy, Sundin, Bure, Sakic, and 10 pts back of the dominant Jagr.

When Gretz was in his prime, those equivalent stars (Savard, Dionne, Hawerhcuk, Bossy, Trottier, Stastny, Sittler, Lafleur etc etc etc) were buried 100pts behind him lol
I posted this in another thread, so I will post the data and contextual information verbatim from the other thread.

-------------------------------------------------
Here are some stats on goal-scoring titles as well as top3, top5, top10 finishes

Howe: 5*1st, 12*top3, 14*top5, 19*top10
Bobby Hull: 7*1st, 10*top3, 12*top5, 13*top10
Richard: 5*1st, 9*top3, 13*top5, 14*top10
Ovechkin: 6*1st, 8*top3, 10*top5, 10*top10
Gretzky: 5*1st, 5*top3, 8*top5, 9*top10

Bossy: 2*1st, 7*top3, 8*top5, 9*top10
Lemieux: 3*1st, 6*top3, 6*top5, 9*top10
Esposito: 6*1st, 7*top3, 8*top5, 9*top10
Brett Hull: 3*1st, 4*top3, 4*top5, 8*top10
Pavel Bure: 3*1st, 4*top3, 5*top5, 5*top10

I think the real race is between Ovechkin and the first group. Granted, top10 finishes were easier in the O6 era (6 teams, 18 first-line players who get better ice time/PP/O-zone starts), but top3/top5 finishes are about equally hard in any era, and the impressive part about Hull Sr/Richard/Howe is 10/9/12 top3 finishes and 12/13/14 top5 finishes. Ovechkin is not done yet, and he is rather close. For example, if he does get his 7th goal-scoring title this year, I think he passes Richard (OV will have two more goal-scoring titles vs. 2 extra top5 finishes and 1 extra top10 finish Richard will still have on him).

Gretzky is probably the weakest of the first group on this dimension, his time in top3 is very limited and though he has an insane peak (I will write a separate post on that), his goal-scoring arc is very similar to Brett Hull's, and that's not a good thing.
Below are the calculations for Pavel Bure, Mike Bossy, Mario Lemieux, and Phil Esposito. I've also included Teemu Selanne's results, considering his name is sometimes thrown into the same class as some of these other goal scorers.

Pre-1970 seasons have been adjusted at 60% as specified by Zuluss; 1970-71 to 1996-97 season have been adjusted at 90% as also specified.

Pavel Bure:

61-55-48-27-10

Teemu Selanne:

58-37-21-21-20

Mario Lemieux:

76-42-41-26-25-17-4-4-0

Mike Bossy:

65-38-29-29-25-23-23-8-8

Brett Hull:

82-60-54-22-10-0-0-0

Phil Esposito:

100-80-66-47-34-26-18-10-5

At face value, one can conclude from these numbers that Mike Bossy and Teemu Selanne have the shortest, smallest peaks of the group.

Zuluss states that 44% is the baseline for what would be considered an average goal-scoring lead over the 10th-placed scorer in each respective season.

Selanne and Bossy each have only one of those; Selanne's top-ranked season is not his 1992-93 season -- it is instead his 1997-98 season that is his best, according to these calculations. Selanne has the lowest peak, while Bossy has the biggest drop-off after one season despite playing on a dynasty team.

Brett Hull has three -- all of which were played alongside Adam Oates, who seems to have been the catalyst for his success.

Mario Lemieux has only one, although Zuluss' instructions here only account for end-of-year totals.

Pavel Bure has three, all of which were post-injury finishes (1997-98, 1999-00, 2000-01) on notoriously bad teams with virtually no help. His top-ranked season, the 1999-00 season, was tallied in 74 games played (a pace of 64 goals in 82 games). His second-highest ranked season is his 1997-98 season. All three of these seasons were in a lower-scoring period than Ovechkin's peak (1997-98: 2.64 GPG, 1999-00: 2.75 GPG, 2000-01: 2.76 GPG vs 2007-08: 2.78 GPG).

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

Phil Esposito has four, although these all took place during Bobby Orr's peak with the Boston Bruins -- as with Brett Hull, perhaps another case of a goal scorer capitalizing on the abilities of a high-end teammate.

There seems to be the notion that Bure is in a tier with Brett Hull, Teemu Selanne, and Mike Bossy -- that debate needs to be resolved before we move on the argument of where Bure places among the top-tier scorers (and it could only ever be an argument based on peak dominance). Even with Oates on his line, Brett Hull's second-and-third best seasons are not better than Bure's best based on these numbers; take Oates away and I'm not sure even two of those seasons stay above the 44% threshold. Selanne and Bossy are well below both in terms of the lack of dominant goal-scoring seasons that they had (just one each) and, with regards to Bossy especially, based on the talent that they played with.

We need to first be clear that Bure was a better goal scorer than Bossy, Selanne, and Brett Hull were.

@Wondercarrot: Bure was forced to play an individual style of game based on the teams that he played for and the linemates that he was often with. Recently, I tallied the primary assist totals on his goals by teammates for several of his seasons. More often than not, his forward linemates were the players with the most primary assists. Over the course of his career, 60 to 65% of primary assists on his goals were awarded to forwards, while only 20 to 30% went to defencemen; in contrast, Teemu Selanne's 1992-93 season is the epitome of forwards being less important overall to a player's success -- forwards had a primary assist on only 44% of his goals (less than half!) while defencemen had a high 40%; Phil Housley led the team in primary assists on Selanne's goals. The distribution of primary assists on Bure's goals more closely match those on Brett Hull's.

I am on the verge of developing a four-game scouting package centered around Pavel Bure's rookie season. He played with Igor Larionov that year. One significant difference in his game with Larionov on his line was that he often relied on Larionov to carry the puck and dictate the play -- Bure would often make a head-man pass to him off the rush, and in the offensive zone would sneak into open ice while Larionov looked to create a play with the puck on his stick.

Below is the data:

Here are the goal-scoring logs for Bure from the seasons 1991-92, 1992-93, 1993-94, 1999-00, and 2000-01, as well as from Bure's time as a New York Ranger.

The goals are in no particular order.
1991-92

07:17 VAN Pavel Bure (1)
18:12 VAN Pavel Bure (2) Cliff Ronning and Sergio Momesso
05:25 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (8) Igor Larionov and Dave Babych
08:46 VAN Pavel Bure (9) Igor Larionov and Greg Adams
12:06 VAN Pavel Bure (13) Petr Nedved and Geoff Courtnall
09:54 VAN Pavel Bure (14) Greg Adams and Igor Larionov
09:28 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (16) Cliff Ronning and Igor Larionov
06:52 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (17) Greg Adams and Gerald Diduck
08:15 VAN Pavel Bure (22) Igor Larionov
19:13 VAN Pavel Bure (23) Adrien Plavsic and Igor Larionov
05:10 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (28) Igor Larionov and Kirk McLean
18:31 VAN Pavel Bure (29) Igor Larionov and Dana Murzyn
06:10 VAN Pavel Bure (32)
18:02 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (33) Doug Lidster and Greg Adams
11:42 VAN Pavel Bure (34)
06:40 VAN Pavel Bure (3) Ryan Walter and Gino Odjick
10:31 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (4) Cliff Ronning and Sergio Momesso
01:21 VAN Pavel Bure (5) Greg Adams
14:58 VAN Pavel Bure (6) Igor Larionov and Doug Lidster
02:43 VAN Pavel Bure (7) Igor Larionov
19:56 VAN EN — Pavel Bure (10) Tom Fergus and Dave Babych
08:18 VAN Pavel Bure (11) Geoff Courtnall and Igor Larionov
19:35 VAN EN — Pavel Bure (12) Igor Larionov
00:34 VAN Pavel Bure (15) Jyrki Lumme and Igor Larionov
02:52 VAN Pavel Bure (18) Igor Larionov
16:27 VAN Pavel Bure (19)
13:46 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (20) Gerald Diduck and Dana Murzyn
17:19 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (21) Igor Larionov
18:59 VAN Pavel Bure (24) Adrien Plavsic and Petr Nedved
05:17 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (25)
10:20 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (26) Petr Nedved
12:05 VAN Pavel Bure (27) Robert Dirk
16:48 VAN Pavel Bure (30) Jyrki Lumme and Igor Larionov
09:35 VAN Pavel Bure (31) Geoff Courtnall and Adrien Plavsic
1992-93

05:26 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (2) Greg Adams and Dana Murzyn
14:03 VAN Pavel Bure (3) Greg Adams and Dixon Ward
17:23 VAN Pavel Bure (4) Jyrki Lumme
18:15 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (5)
13:59 VAN Pavel Bure (9) Geoff Courtnall and Robert Dirk
07:37 VAN Pavel Bure (10) Gino Odjick and Doug Lidster
15:48 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (11) Cliff Ronning and Greg Adams
08:04 VAN Pavel Bure (7) Greg Adams
08:05 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (8) Petr Nedved and Doug Lidster
11:02 VAN Pavel Bure (12) Greg Adams and Anatoli Semenov
18:42 VAN Pavel Bure (13) Cliff Ronning and Dana Murzyn
19:56 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (15) Anatoli Semenov and Greg Adams
08:08 VAN Pavel Bure (14) Greg Adams and Anatoli Semenov
09:41 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (16) Anatoli Semenov
01:08 VAN Pavel Bure (17) Anatoli Semenov and Geoff Courtnall
06:51 VAN Pavel Bure (19) Anatoli Semenov and Jyrki Lumme
14:31 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (20) Dixon Ward and Gerald Diduck
01:42 VAN Pavel Bure (21) Geoff Courtnall
09:46 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (22) Jiri Slegr
05:40 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (28) Jiri Slegr and Cliff Ronning
18:49 VAN EN — Pavel Bure (29) Greg Adams and Jyrki Lumme
19:06 VAN Pavel Bure (31)
11:00 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (32) Anatoli Semenov
08:34 VAN Pavel Bure (34)
09:55 VAN Pavel Bure (33) Greg Adams and Anatoli Semenov
02:45 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (37) Jyrki Lumme and Sergio Momesso
07:06 VAN Pavel Bure (38) Greg Adams and Dixon Ward
04:06 VAN Pavel Bure (39) Geoff Courtnall
03:01 VAN Pavel Bure (40) Greg Adams
17:10 VAN Pavel Bure (45)
17:23 VAN EN — Pavel Bure (46) Geoff Courtnall
18:06 VAN Pavel Bure (50) Dixon Ward and Robert Dirk
14:14 VAN Pavel Bure (51) Dave Babych
12:49 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (54) Cliff Ronning
03:15 VAN Pavel Bure (55) Anatoli Semenov
08:14 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (58) Murray Craven and Jyrki Lumme
12:29 VAN Pavel Bure (59) Petr Nedved and Adrien Plavsic
14:15 VAN Pavel Bure (1) Adrien Plavsic
07:39 VAN Pavel Bure (6) Petr Nedved and Greg Adams
16:40 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (18) Greg Adams and Jyrki Lumme
17:40 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (23) Jyrki Lumme and Petr Nedved
17:00 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (24) Sergio Momesso and Trevor Linden
02:39 VAN Pavel Bure (25)
15:45 VAN Pavel Bure (26) Greg Adams
18:15 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (27)
18:14 VAN Pavel Bure (30) Jyrki Lumme
12:32 VAN Pavel Bure (35) Dana Murzyn
18:53 VAN Pavel Bure (36) Jyrki Lumme
11:37 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (41) Doug Lidster and Geoff Courtnall
01:37 VAN Pavel Bure (42) Stephane Morin and Geoff Courtnall
03:34 VAN Pavel Bure (43) Anatoli Semenov and Garry Valk
11:47 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (44) Geoff Courtnall and Petr Nedved
05:11 VAN Pavel Bure (47) Robert Dirk
13:52 VAN Pavel Bure (48) Dixon Ward
07:11 VAN Pavel Bure (49) Jiri Slegr
14:55 VAN Pavel Bure (52) Dixon Ward and Anatoli Semenov
04:55 VAN Pavel Bure (53) Jyrki Lumme and Dixon Ward
10:11 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (56) Anatoli Semenov
13:27 VAN Pavel Bure (57)
12:13 VAN Pavel Bure (60) Murray Craven
1993-94

12:38 VAN Pavel Bure (41) Jyrki Lumme
01:38 VAN Pavel Bure (42) Greg Adams and Dave Babych
16:50 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (43) Jimmy Carson and Murray Craven
02:56 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (51)
05:07 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (52) Jimmy Carson
19:19 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (53) Jimmy Carson and Geoff Courtnall
19:47 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (23) Dave Babych and John Namestnikov
04:37 VAN Pavel Bure (24) Geoff Courtnall
00:54 VAN Pavel Bure (25) Martin Gelinas and Dana Murzyn
04:04 VAN Pavel Bure (35) Geoff Courtnall and Gino Odjick
09:46 VAN Pavel Bure (36) Murray Craven and Dave Babych
10:25 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (37) Jyrki Lumme and Kirk McLean
00:55 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (38) Cliff Ronning and Trevor Linden
00:20 VAN Pavel Bure (47) Gino Odjick and Murray Craven
11:50 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (48) Jyrki Lumme and Trevor Linden
08:16 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (57) Geoff Courtnall and Jeff Brown
00:57 VAN Pavel Bure (58) Murray Craven and Greg Adams
10:44 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (1) Greg Adams
18:52 VAN EN — Pavel Bure (2) Dave Babych
13:19 VAN Pavel Bure (3) Greg Adams and Dana Murzyn
01:50 VAN Pavel Bure (4) Gino Odjick
14:50 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (5) Greg Adams
19:16 VAN EN — Pavel Bure (6) Dave Babych
11:11 VAN Pavel Bure (13) Cliff Ronning and Gino Odjick
05:09 VAN Pavel Bure (14) Jiri Slegr and Cliff Ronning
16:22 VAN Pavel Bure (17) Jiri Slegr and Dana Murzyn
04:16 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (18) Geoff Courtnall and Jiri Slegr
02:36 VAN Pavel Bure (20) John Namestnikov
11:04 VAN Pavel Bure (19) Jimmy Carson and Jyrki Lumme
03:06 VAN Pavel Bure (26) John Namestnikov
05:23 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (27) Jyrki Lumme and Jimmy Carson
03:10 VAN Pavel Bure (31) Jyrki Lumme
06:29 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (32) Geoff Courtnall and Cliff Ronning
02:43 VAN Pavel Bure (7)
16:31 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (8) Greg Adams and Jyrki Lumme
01:36 VAN Pavel Bure (9) Geoff Courtnall and Dave Babych
05:26 VAN Pavel Bure (10) Geoff Courtnall and Murray Craven
09:01 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (11)
17:56 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (12) Cliff Ronning and Jiri Slegr
02:28 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (15) Murray Craven
13:26 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (16) Jiri Slegr and Murray Craven
19:45 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (21) Dave Babych
16:54 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (22) Jyrki Lumme
19:07 VAN Pavel Bure (28) Dave Babych and Martin Gelinas

09:03 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (29) Jimmy Carson and Jiri Slegr
17:37 VAN Pavel Bure (30) Dave Babych and Cliff Ronning
01:17 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (33) Murray Craven
15:12 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (34) Cliff Ronning and Geoff Courtnall
19:56 VAN Pavel Bure (39) Murray Craven and Martin Gelinas
09:04 VAN Pavel Bure (40) Gerald Diduck
14:27 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (44) Geoff Courtnall and Trevor Linden
11:49 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (45) Gerald Diduck
19:24 VAN EN — Pavel Bure (46) Adrien Plavsic and Gino Odjick
04:24 VAN Pavel Bure (49) Murray Craven
18:56 VAN EN — Pavel Bure (50) Murray Craven
10:35 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (54) Jeff Brown and Cliff Ronning
08:43 VAN PP — Pavel Bure (55) Jyrki Lumme and Jeff Brown
11:19 VAN Pavel Bure (56) Geoff Courtnall and Murray Craven
17:48 VAN SH — Pavel Bure (59) Murray Craven and Gerald Diduck
11:05 VAN Pavel Bure (60)
1999-00

07:42 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (16) Ray Whitney and Robert Svehla
19:38 FLA EN — Pavel Bure (18) Scott Mellanby
05:45 FLA Pavel Bure (17)
00:43 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (22) Ray Whitney and Viktor Kozlov
02:58 FLA Pavel Bure (23) Bret Hedican and Oleg Kvasha
09:03 FLA Pavel Bure (24) Viktor Kozlov
19:32 FLA EN — Pavel Bure (25) Scott Mellanby
19:58 FLA Pavel Bure (48) Ray Whitney and Viktor Kozlov
18:50 FLA Pavel Bure (49) Mike Sillinger
19:40 FLA EN — Pavel Bure (50) Mike Sillinger and Robert Svehla
05:02 FLA Pavel Bure (8) Viktor Kozlov
19:39 FLA Pavel Bure (13)
02:45 FLA Pavel Bure (12) Viktor Kozlov and Scott Mellanby
00:38 FLA Pavel Bure (11) Scott Mellanby
19:15 FLA SH , EN — Pavel Bure (20)
11:42 FLA Pavel Bure (19) Viktor Kozlov and Jaroslav Spacek
00:40 FLA Pavel Bure (21) Scott Mellanby and Viktor Kozlov
01:50 FLA Pavel Bure (26) Robert Svehla
13:28 FLA Pavel Bure (28)
07:03 FLA Pavel Bure (27) Ray Whitney and Oleg Kvasha
03:47 FLA Pavel Bure (33) Viktor Kozlov
01:31 FLA Pavel Bure (34) Viktor Kozlov and Robert Svehla
19:59 FLA EN — Pavel Bure (57) Robert Svehla and Jaroslav Spacek
00:22 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (56) Jaroslav Spacek and Ray Whitney
19:26 FLA EN — Pavel Bure (45) Rob Niedermayer
16:13 FLA Pavel Bure (44) Viktor Kozlov and Ray Whitney
08:03 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (46) Mark Parrish and Robert Svehla
11:55 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (47) Robert Svehla and Ray Whitney
13:33 FLA Pavel Bure (53) Jaroslav Spacek and Robert Svehla
01:38 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (54) Ray Whitney and Viktor Kozlov
19:26 FLA EN — Pavel Bure (2) Viktor Kozlov and Jaroslav Spacek
06:57 FLA Pavel Bure (3)
02:55 FLA Pavel Bure (4) Scott Mellanby and Robert Svehla
15:03 FLA Pavel Bure (5) Ray Whitney and Viktor Kozlov
08:36 FLA Pavel Bure (15) Scott Mellanby and Viktor Kozlov
15:57 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (30) Robert Svehla
10:35 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (31) Ray Whitney and Scott Mellanby
04:06 FLA Pavel Bure (36) Viktor Kozlov and Dan Boyle
16:01 FLA Pavel Bure (37) Viktor Kozlov and Bret Hedican
10:04 FLA Pavel Bure (38) Viktor Kozlov
03:28 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (1) Robert Svehla and Jaroslav Spacek
02:18 FLA Pavel Bure (6) Viktor Kozlov and Radek Dvorak
16:10 FLA SH — Pavel Bure (7) Radek Dvorak
17:58 FLA Pavel Bure (9) Bret Hedican
12:17 FLA Pavel Bure (10) Ray Sheppard and Viktor Kozlov
19:51 FLA EN — Pavel Bure (14) Jaroslav Spacek
15:08 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (29) Ray Whitney and Jaroslav Spacek
11:12 FLA Pavel Bure (32) Ryan Johnson and Ray Whitney
01:19 FLA Pavel Bure (35) Robert Svehla
08:32 FLA Pavel Bure (39)
07:51 FLA Pavel Bure (40) Peter Worrell and Robert Svehla
07:46 FLA Pavel Bure (41) Viktor Kozlov and Robert Svehla
10:34 FLA Pavel Bure (42) Robert Svehla and Jaroslav Spacek
14:57 FLA Pavel Bure (43) Jaroslav Spacek and Robert Svehla
17:11 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (51)
18:58 FLA EN — Pavel Bure (52) Robert Svehla
08:46 FLA Pavel Bure (55) Ray Whitney
08:18 FLA Pavel Bure (58) Oleg Kvasha and Bret Hedican
2000-01

16:34 FLA Pavel Bure (32) Marcus Nilson and Viktor Kozlov
10:18 FLA Pavel Bure (33) Rob Niedermayer
05:57 FLA Pavel Bure (34) Greg Adams and Rob Niedermayer
09:11 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (35) Rob Niedermayer and Vinny Prospal
07:19 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (36) Marcus Nilson
17:23 FLA Pavel Bure (37) Denis Shvidki
04:52 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (38) Viktor Kozlov and Anders Eriksson
09:06 FLA Pavel Bure (46) Mike Sillinger and Mike Wilson
11:41 FLA Pavel Bure (47) Mike Sillinger and Robert Svehla
19:03 FLA SH , EN — Pavel Bure (48)
18:02 FLA Pavel Bure (52) Marcus Nilson
08:27 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (53) Anders Eriksson and Bret Hedican
13:53 FLA Pavel Bure (54) Denis Shvidki
07:52 FLA SH — Pavel Bure (4) Jaroslav Spacek and Bret Hedican
19:54 FLA EN — Pavel Bure (5) Robert Svehla and Todd Simpson
06:00 FLA Pavel Bure (7) Viktor Kozlov and Greg Adams
07:00 FLA Pavel Bure (8) Robert Svehla
12:17 FLA SH — Pavel Bure (24)
14:03 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (25) Rob Niedermayer and Anders Eriksson
00:59 FLA Pavel Bure (28) Robert Svehla and Rob Niedermayer
11:20 FLA Pavel Bure (27) Viktor Kozlov and Marcus Nilson
07:28 FLA Pavel Bure (30) Anders Eriksson
16:26 FLA Pavel Bure (31) Robert Svehla and Viktor Kozlov
00:46 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (42) Viktor Kozlov and Marcus Nilson
08:17 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (43) Dan Boyle and Denis Shvidki
10:04 FLA Pavel Bure (50) Bret Hedican
00:44 FLA Pavel Bure (51) Robert Svehla and Bret Hedican
19:42 FLA EN — Pavel Bure (58) Marcus Nilson and Kevyn Adams
11:08 FLA Pavel Bure (57) Kevyn Adams and Marcus Nilson
16:39 FLA Pavel Bure (1) Igor Larionov and Rob Niedermayer
09:54 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (2) Robert Svehla and Igor Larionov
11:05 FLA Pavel Bure (3) Ray Whitney and Bret Hedican
02:41 FLA Pavel Bure (6)
03:59 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (9) Viktor Kozlov
13:09 FLA Pavel Bure (10) Trevor Kidd
09:38 FLA SH — Pavel Bure (11)
19:34 FLA EN — Pavel Bure (12) Rob Niedermayer
02:47 FLA Pavel Bure (13) Greg Adams and Anders Eriksson
00:43 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (14) Robert Svehla and Anders Eriksson
08:51 FLA Pavel Bure (15) Viktor Kozlov
06:49 FLA Pavel Bure (16) Ray Whitney and Viktor Kozlov
10:50 FLA Pavel Bure (17) Peter Worrell and Brad Ference
14:38 FLA Pavel Bure (18) Dan Boyle
13:30 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (19) Scott Mellanby and Rob Niedermayer
17:16 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (20) Scott Mellanby and Mike Sillinger
04:50 FLA Pavel Bure (21) Greg Adams
03:32 FLA Pavel Bure (22) Marcus Nilson and Robert Svehla
19:37 FLA Pavel Bure (23) Anders Eriksson and Olli Jokinen
13:45 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (26) Viktor Kozlov and Dan Boyle
13:53 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (29) Anders Eriksson and Vinny Prospal
19:48 FLA Pavel Bure (39)
09:52 FLA Pavel Bure (40) Bret Hedican and Marcus Nilson
14:37 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (41) Denis Shvidki and Mike Sillinger
01:50 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (44) Mike Sillinger and Viktor Kozlov
14:22 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (45) Dan Boyle and Len Barrie
14:46 FLA Pavel Bure (49) Len Barrie and Greg Adams
19:52 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (55) Dan Boyle and Len Barrie
02:43 FLA PP — Pavel Bure (56) Vinny Prospal and Marcus Nilson
06:47 FLA SH — Pavel Bure (59) Rob Niedermayer and Bret Hedican
Here is the goal-scoring log for Bure during his time as a New York Ranger. I have combined the two seasons due to the small sample size of each season; first, his goal-scoring log:
2001-02 (only with Rangers)

18:24 NYR Pavel Bure (28) Eric Lindros
19:32 NYR EN — Pavel Bure (29)
00:54 NYR Pavel Bure (30) Eric Lindros
10:55 NYR Pavel Bure (31) Eric Lindros and Martin Rucinsky
03:22 NYR PP — Pavel Bure (32) Tom Poti and Brian Leetch
14:59 NYR Pavel Bure (33) Martin Rucinsky and Vladimir Malakhov
10:41 NYR Pavel Bure (23) Eric Lindros and Theoren Fleury
12:31 NYR Pavel Bure (24)
14:18 NYR Pavel Bure (25) Tom Poti and Eric Lindros
00:38 NYR Pavel Bure (26) Matthew Barnaby and Eric Lindros
15:53 NYR PP — Pavel Bure (27) Tom Poti and Brian Leetch
11:16 NYR PP — Pavel Bure (34) Tom Poti and Martin Rucinsky

2002-03

18:06 NYR Pavel Bure (14) Petr Nedved and Vladimir Malakhov
09:17 NYR Pavel Bure (12) Ronald Petrovicky and Petr Nedved
19:37 NYR Pavel Bure (13) Ronald Petrovicky and Petr Nedved
18:21 NYR Pavel Bure (1) Matthew Barnaby and Tom Poti
06:49 NYR PP — Pavel Bure (2) Brian Leetch and Jamie Lundmark
08:46 NYR Pavel Bure (6) Eric Lindros and Dale Purinton
18:02 NYR Pavel Bure (7) Eric Lindros
17:22 NYR Pavel Bure (11) Radek Dvorak and Petr Nedved
17:27 NYR Pavel Bure (10) Ronald Petrovicky and Petr Nedved
01:29 NYR Pavel Bure (15) Jamie Lundmark
02:39 NYR PP — Pavel Bure (16) Petr Nedved and Jamie Lundmark
11:09 NYR PP — Pavel Bure (3) Brian Leetch and Tom Poti
04:25 NYR PP — Pavel Bure (4)
19:03 NYR Pavel Bure (5) Rem Murray and Sylvain Lefebvre
00:57 NYR Pavel Bure (8) Petr Nedved
00:42 NYR Pavel Bure (9) Rem Murray and Tom Poti
16:34 NYR PP — Pavel Bure (17) Brian Leetch and Eric Lindros
13:42 NYR Pavel Bure (18) Cory Cross and Petr Nedved
08:53 NYR SH — Pavel Bure (19)
Here are the breakdowns of the primary assists on every Bure goal from those seasons:

1991-92:

22 primary assists by forwards = 64.71%


5 unassisted

7 primary assists by defencemen = 20.59%

1992-93:

39 primary assists by forwards = 65.0%


6 unassisted

15 primary assists by defencemen = 25.0%


1993-94:

34 primary assists by forwards = 56.67%


4 unassisted

22 primary assists by defencemen = 36.67%

1999-00:

37 primary assists by forwards = 63.79%

7 unassisted

14 primary assists by defencemen = 24.14%

2000-01:

35 primary assists by forwards = 59.32%

5 unassisted

1 primary assist by goalie

18 primary assists by defencemen = 30.51%

Pavel Bure as a New York Ranger (2001-02; 2002-03):

19 primary assists by forwards = 61.29%

4 unassisted

8 primary assists by defencemen = 25.81%

------------------------

Notice that, on average, 63% of primary assists on Bure's goals are awarded to forwards -- 1993-94 is slightly lower at 56.67% -- and only 25% go to defencemen. This is a very consistent statistic over the course of Bure's most respected seasons.

We can compare this with the 1992-93 season of a player who, early in his career, relied more on defense than forwards to a much greater degree than Bure -- Teemu Selanne. Teemu was a player who one rightfully could claim would benefit more from elite defence than forward linemates:

Teemu Selanne (1992-93)

08:53 WIN Teemu Selanne (48) Sergei Bautin and Thomas Steen
16:46 WIN Teemu Selanne (49) Sergei Bautin and Tie Domi
18:55 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (50) Fredrik Olausson and Thomas Steen
07:33 WIN Teemu Selanne (51) Phil Housley
09:07 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (3) Fredrik Olausson and Phil Housley
16:46 WIN Teemu Selanne (4)
13:48 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (5) Fredrik Olausson and Phil Housley
16:24 WIN Teemu Selanne (21) Darrin Shannon and Thomas Steen
00:40 WIN Teemu Selanne (22)
11:14 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (20) Alex Zhamnov and Darrin Shannon
00:15 WIN Teemu Selanne (52) Phil Housley and Thomas Steen
16:59 WIN Teemu Selanne (53) Thomas Steen and Darrin Shannon
09:16 WIN Teemu Selanne (54) Tie Domi and Phil Housley
00:13 WIN Teemu Selanne (57)
14:26 WIN Teemu Selanne (58) Keith Tkachuk
01:08 WIN Teemu Selanne (59)
05:01 WIN Teemu Selanne (60) Alex Zhamnov
12:32 WIN Teemu Selanne (61) Phil Housley and Teppo Numminen
07:55 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (64) Keith Tkachuk and Alex Zhamnov
17:59 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (65) Fredrik Olausson and Phil Housley
07:46 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (66) Fredrik Olausson and Phil Housley
02:32 WIN Teemu Selanne (67) Keith Tkachuk and Alex Zhamnov
07:20 WIN Teemu Selanne (69) Alex Zhamnov and Thomas Steen
13:00 WIN Teemu Selanne (70) Alex Zhamnov and Thomas Steen
18:49 WIN Teemu Selanne (72) Tie Domi and Teppo Numminen
10:18 WIN Teemu Selanne (73) Alex Zhamnov and Phil Housley
08:13 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (10) Ed Olczyk and Thomas Steen
18:48 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (11) Phil Housley and Ed Olczyk
06:14 WIN Teemu Selanne (13)
04:29 WIN Teemu Selanne (14) Alex Zhamnov and Teppo Numminen
12:39 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (26) Phil Housley and Darrin Shannon
06:35 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (27)
07:04 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (29) Phil Housley
14:50 WIN Teemu Selanne (30)
00:57 WIN Teemu Selanne (32) Keith Tkachuk and Alex Zhamnov
19:59 WIN EN — Teemu Selanne (33) Darrin Shannon and Fredrik Olausson
04:20 WIN Teemu Selanne (43) Igor Ulanov and Darrin Shannon
11:23 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (44) Phil Housley and Evgeny Davydov
19:31 WIN Teemu Selanne (55) Keith Tkachuk and Thomas Steen
18:08 WIN Teemu Selanne (56) Kris King
19:41 WIN EN — Teemu Selanne (68) Bob Essensa and Teppo Numminen
10:31 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (71) Phil Housley and Thomas Steen
04:52 WIN Teemu Selanne (74) Igor Ulanov
18:23 WIN Teemu Selanne (75) Phil Housley and Alex Zhamnov
05:25 WIN Teemu Selanne (76) Fredrik Olausson
17:37 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (8) Thomas Steen
14:41 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (9) Fredrik Olausson and Ed Olczyk
14:22 WIN Teemu Selanne (12)
15:34 WIN Teemu Selanne (15) Alex Zhamnov and Teppo Numminen
00:22 WIN Teemu Selanne (16) Teppo Numminen
00:22 WIN Teemu Selanne (16) Teppo Numminen
02:59 WIN Teemu Selanne (18)
14:47 WIN Teemu Selanne (19) Fredrik Olausson and Thomas Steen
00:27 WIN Teemu Selanne (23) Darrin Shannon and Teppo Numminen
19:13 WIN Teemu Selanne (24) Phil Housley
08:01 WIN Teemu Selanne (25) Ed Olczyk and Thomas Steen
06:19 WIN Teemu Selanne (28) Phil Housley and Darrin Shannon
01:08 WIN Teemu Selanne (31) Alex Zhamnov and Igor Ulanov
13:02 WIN Teemu Selanne (34) Phil Housley
10:06 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (35) Fredrik Olausson and Phil Housley
16:44 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (36) Alex Zhamnov and Phil Housley
08:57 WIN Teemu Selanne (37) Keith Tkachuk and Sergei Bautin
12:57 WIN Teemu Selanne (38) Alex Zhamnov and Igor Ulanov
19:52 WIN EN — Teemu Selanne (39) Thomas Steen and Bob Essensa
07:34 WIN Teemu Selanne (40) Alex Zhamnov
15:44 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (41) Darrin Shannon and Phil Housley
15:50 WIN Teemu Selanne (42) Phil Housley and Thomas Steen
16:05 WIN Teemu Selanne (45) Stu Barnes
05:58 WIN Teemu Selanne (46) Keith Tkachuk and Mike Eagles
05:00 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (47) Thomas Steen and Darrin Shannon
14:14 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (62) Phil Housley and Alex Zhamnov
03:29 WIN Teemu Selanne (63) Keith Tkachuk and Phil Housley
16:13 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (1) Phil Housley and Keith Tkachuk
08:39 WIN Teemu Selanne (2) Alex Zhamnov and Darrin Shannon
09:27 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (6)
19:45 WIN PP — Teemu Selanne (7) Fredrik Olausson and Phil Housley

Teemu Selanne (1992-93):

34 primary assists by forwards = 44.74%

10 unassisted

1 by goalie

31 primary assists by defencemen = 40.79%

----------------------------------------

We can see just how different the percentages are compared to Bure's. Less than half of Selanne's goals that season featured primary assists from forwards, and the defencemen were within just a few percentage points.

Phil Housley led the group with 15 primary assists, while Alexei Zhamnov had 12, Fred Olausson had 10, and Keith Tkachuk had 8.

This was a much more skilled group than Bure ever worked with, and we can also see just how much more important defencemen were to Selanne's production that season. The myth that Bure would have been better with an elite defenceman than an elite forward should be put to rest. Bure's game required more partnership and teamwork with other forwards even when those forwards were not elite.

Housley: 15 primary assists on Selanne's goals

Zhamnov: 12

Olausson: 10

Tkachuk: 8

Shannon: 4

Steen: 4

Domi: 2

Olczyk: 2

Bautin: 2

Numminen: 2

Ulanov: 2

King: 1

Barnes: 1

Essensa: 1

-------------------------------------------------

Now, let's look at which forwards on Bure's teams received the primary assists on his goals during the sampled seasons so that we understand the caliber of players that Bure worked with:

1991-92:

Larionov: 10 primary assists on Bure's goals

Ronning: 3

Adams: 3

Courtnall: 2

Nedved: 2

Walter: 1

Fergus: 1

----------------------

1992-93:

Adams: 11 primary assists on Bure's goals

Semenov: 8

Courtnall: 5

Ward: 4

Ronning: 3

Nedved: 3

Craven: 2

Momesso: 1

Odjick: 1

Morin: 1

----------------------

1993-94:


Courtnall: 9 primary assists on Bure's goals

Craven: 8

Adams: 5

Carson: 5

Ronning: 4

Odjick: 2

Gelinas: 1

-----------------------

1999-00:

Kozlov: 13 primary assists on Bure's goals

Whitney: 9

Mellanby: 6

Sillinger: 2

Parrish: 1

Neidermayer: 1

Dvorak: 1

Kvasha: 1

Sheppard: 1

Worrell: 1

Johnson: 1

---------------------------

2000-01:

Kozlov - 7 primary assists on Bure's goals

Nilson - 5

Niedermayer - 5

Greg Adams - 3

Sillinger 3

Shvidki - 3

Whitney - 2

Mellanby - 2

Kevyn Adams - 1

Larionov - 1

Barrie - 1

Worrell - 1

Prospal - 1

---------------------------

Bure as a New York Ranger (2001-02; 2002-03)

Lindros - 6 primary assists on Bure's goals

Nedved - 3

Petrovicky - 3

Barnaby - 2

Murray - 2

Rucinsky - 1

Dvorak - 1

Lundmark - 1

---------------------------

The forward who tallied the most primary assists during Bure's first three seasons in Vancouver was his most consistent linemate: Greg Adams. Over the course of two-and-a-half seasons with Bure, Adams tallied 19 primary assists. Ranked either first or second in each of these seasons was his primary center during that campaign: Igor Larionov (1991-92), Anatoli Semenov (1992-93), Murray Craven (1993-94), and Viktor Kozlov (1999-00). Gino Odjick and Jimmy Carson, who each spent time on Bure's line in 1993-94 -- Odjick spent most of that season with Bure --, tallied a handful of primary assists.

-------------------------

I also used Mark Messier as the basis for a comparison of the effect on his goal totals with Bure on his line as opposed to others throughout his career.

The conclusion is that Bure's ability to record a primary assist on Messier's goals was no worse than third-best out of any player that Messier ever played with. Bure had 10 primary assists on Messier's goals in 1997-98; in 14 seasons sampled, only Pat Verbeek (11 in 1995-96) and Wayne Gretzky (12 in 1981-82) had more in a single season. The dropoff in Messier's goals in 1997-98 had everything to do with the team's lack of scoring depth:

I will link to that post here: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/138409373/

-------------------------
Now, let's examine Hull's 1990-91 season, the only one that is distinguished to any significant degree from Bure's best totals in our calculations based on Zuluss' method.
Brett Hull (1990-91):

12:13 STL Brett Hull (66) Rod Brind'Amour and Adam Oates
08:30 STL PP — Brett Hull (67) Adam Oates and Scott Stevens
11:20 STL PP — Brett Hull (68) Adam Oates and Cliff Ronning
06:38 STL Brett Hull (73) Garth Butcher and Adam Oates
10:34 STL Brett Hull (75) Paul Cavallini and Adam Oates
11:49 STL PP — Brett Hull (74) Adam Oates and Gino Cavallini
02:39 STL Brett Hull (8) Bob Bassen and Rod Brind'Amour
14:43 STL Brett Hull (9) Gino Cavallini and Glen Featherstone
08:39 STL PP — Brett Hull (10) Geoff Courtnall
15:45 STL Brett Hull (12) Adam Oates and Geoff Courtnall
04:41 STL Brett Hull (11) Adam Oates and Geoff Courtnall
01:18 STL PP — Brett Hull (13) Jeff Brown and Adam Oates
11:40 STL Brett Hull (2)
16:23 STL Brett Hull (1) Cliff Ronning
13:23 STL PP — Brett Hull (3) Adam Oates and Jeff Brown
09:09 STL PP — Brett Hull (4) Adam Oates and Scott Stevens
01:18 STL Brett Hull (6) Gordie Roberts
00:45 STL Brett Hull (7) Geoff Courtnall and Rod Brind'Amour
07:21 STL Brett Hull (18) Paul Cavallini and Scott Stevens
18:46 STL Brett Hull (19) Rod Brind'Amour and Gino Cavallini
01:22 STL PP — Brett Hull (20) Scott Stevens and Jeff Brown
09:37 STL Brett Hull (21) Gino Cavallini and Rod Brind'Amour
02:25 STL Brett Hull (22) Bob Bassen
09:29 STL PP — Brett Hull (23) Gino Cavallini and Rod Brind'Amour
01:46 STL Brett Hull (25) Gino Cavallini
11:22 STL Brett Hull (26) Gino Cavallini
08:00 STL Brett Hull (28) Cliff Ronning
15:34 STL PP — Brett Hull (29) Cliff Ronning and Paul MacLean
10:54 STL Brett Hull (30) Bob Bassen and Paul Cavallini
04:49 STL Brett Hull (31) Bob Bassen and Paul Cavallini
13:52 STL PP — Brett Hull (33) Adam Oates and Cliff Ronning
01:48 STL Brett Hull (34)
03:16 STL Brett Hull (35) Glen Featherstone and Adam Oates
06:20 STL Brett Hull (36) Ron Wilson and Jeff Brown
08:15 STL PP — Brett Hull (40) Adam Oates and Jeff Brown
11:50 STL Brett Hull (41) Jeff Brown and Gino Cavallini
06:18 STL Brett Hull (42) Ron Wilson and Scott Stevens
11:55 STL Brett Hull (43) Adam Oates and Tom Tilley
02:14 STL Brett Hull (47) Adam Oates and Jeff Brown
10:26 STL PP — Brett Hull (48) Scott Stevens and Adam Oates
18:14 STL PP — Brett Hull (49) Jeff Brown and Adam Oates
01:30 STL PP — Brett Hull (50) Adam Oates and Scott Stevens
05:17 STL Brett Hull (51) Rod Brind'Amour and Adam Oates
07:44 STL Brett Hull (52) Geoff Courtnall and Adam Oates
04:19 STL PP — Brett Hull (54) Cliff Ronning and Scott Stevens
13:51 STL PP — Brett Hull (55) Rod Brind'Amour and Adam Oates
12:26 STL Brett Hull (56) Adam Oates and Rod Brind'Amour
04:15 STL Brett Hull (57) Adam Oates
13:59 STL Brett Hull (60) Adam Oates and Rod Brind'Amour
02:46 STL Brett Hull (61) Adam Oates and Jeff Brown
12:32 STL Brett Hull (62) Bob Bassen and Dave Lowry
16:02 STL Brett Hull (63) Geoff Courtnall
05:54 STL Brett Hull (71) Dave Lowry
08:39 STL Brett Hull (72)
14:52 STL Brett Hull (82) Adam Oates
04:40 STL Brett Hull (83) Garth Butcher and Gino Cavallini
06:00 STL PP — Brett Hull (5) Geoff Courtnall and Adam Oates
06:40 STL PP — Brett Hull (14) Adam Oates and Gino Cavallini
16:27 STL Brett Hull (15) Rod Brind'Amour and Gino Cavallini
08:41 STL Brett Hull (16) Scott Stevens and Adam Oates
09:50 STL PP — Brett Hull (17) Scott Stevens and Paul MacLean
15:35 STL Brett Hull (24) Nelson Emerson and Geoff Courtnall
00:27 STL Brett Hull (27) Rod Brind'Amour and Paul Cavallini
00:44 STL Brett Hull (32)
02:21 STL PP — Brett Hull (37) Glen Featherstone and Jeff Brown
11:04 STL Brett Hull (38) Rod Brind'Amour and Adam Oates
14:00 STL PP — Brett Hull (39) Cliff Ronning and Adam Oates
14:33 STL Brett Hull (44) Ron Wilson and Gino Cavallini
10:20 STL PP — Brett Hull (45) Adam Oates and Scott Stevens
00:31 STL Brett Hull (46) Bob Bassen and Jeff Brown
02:11 STL Brett Hull (53) Adam Oates and Rod Brind'Amour
04:03 STL PP — Brett Hull (58) Jeff Brown
02:28 STL Brett Hull (59) Geoff Courtnall
11:30 STL PP — Brett Hull (64) Adam Oates and Paul Cavallini
01:12 STL Brett Hull (65) Adam Oates and Glen Featherstone
15:18 STL PP — Brett Hull (69) Adam Oates and Scott Stevens
03:54 STL Brett Hull (70) Harold Snepsts
07:26 STL Brett Hull (76) Paul Cavallini and Dave Lowry
04:33 STL Brett Hull (77) Adam Oates and Garth Butcher
03:52 STL Brett Hull (78) Scott Stevens and Garth Butcher
03:08 STL PP — Brett Hull (79) Scott Stevens and Jeff Brown
08:41 STL PP — Brett Hull (80) Adam Oates and Dan Quinn
05:03 STL Brett Hull (81) Dave Lowry and Adam Oates
05:45 STL Brett Hull (84) Adam Oates and Dave Lowry
15:18 STL PP — Brett Hull (85) Adam Oates and Dan Quinn
10:01 STL Brett Hull (86) Paul Cavallini and Vincent Riendeau
Brett Hull (1990-91):

Oates: 27 primary assists on Hull's goals

Brind'Amour: 7

Stevens: 6

Bassen: 6

Courtnall: 6

Ronning: 5

Gino Cavallini: 5

Paul Cavallini: 4

Brown: 4

Wilson: 3

Featherstone: 2

Lowry: 2

Butcher: 2

Emerson: 1

Snepsts: 1

Roberts: 1

-------------------------

Now, consider that Courtnall and Ronning had a similar number of assists on Bure's goals in each of his seasons with Vancouver as they did on Hull's goals in 1990-91.

However, instead of Oates, Bure had Semenov, Adams, Odjick, Craven, and Carson as linemates in his two best years with the Canucks.

-------------------------

Hull's success had much to do with Adam Oates. He had nowhere near the same amount of success with Craig Janney or Wayne Gretzky.

I think St. Louis had the over-simplified notion that putting a playmaker and a goal-scorer together would be successful, and they underestimated Oates' ability to play off of Hull's tendencies. In 30 games together, regular season and playoffs combined, Wayne Gretzky had the primary assist on only 4 of Hull's 15 goals. Corson to Hull happened 5 times.
Brett Hull: February 29, 1996 to May 16, 1996 (30 games with Gretzky)

05:58 STL PP — Brett Hull (37) Wayne Gretzky and Al MacInnis
17:47 STL PP — Brett Hull (38) Shayne Corson and Wayne Gretzky
19:25 STL EN — Brett Hull (39)
13:57 STL Brett Hull (42) Yuri Khmylev and Glenn Anderson
05:17 STL PP — Brett Hull (43) Shayne Corson and Al MacInnis
09:44 STL Brett Hull (35) Murray Baron and Al MacInnis
00:26 STL Brett Hull (36) Wayne Gretzky
19:54 STL EN — Brett Hull (40)
13:02 STL PP — Brett Hull (41) Chris Pronger and Christer Olsson

11:13 STL Brett Hull (1) Shayne Corson and Wayne Gretzky
10:44 STL PP — Brett Hull (2) Shayne Corson and Igor Kravchuk
19:54 STL SH — Brett Hull (3)
02:19 STL PP — Brett Hull (4) Shayne Corson and Chris Pronger
05:15 STL Brett Hull (5) Wayne Gretzky and Yuri Khmylev
16:12 STL Brett Hull (6) Wayne Gretzky and Stephen Leach
Brett Hull: February 29, 1996 to May 16, 1996 (30 games with Gretzky):

Corson - 5 primary assists on Hull's goals

Gretzky - 4

Khmylev - 1

Baron - 1

Pronger - 1

3 unassisted

-------------------

Their styles of play did not suit one another at all. In addition to the Bure video package, I am in the midst of forming a Gretzky shift-by-shift scouting package, and the tendencies I've noticed from Gretzky are that he loved to play high in the zone and wait for the outlet pass; he stayed high in his own zone when the puck was in the defensive end; when the play started going the other way, he would head up the ice, and if the Oilers were looking to break out with the opponent backed off, he would wait at the opposing blue line for one of his teammates to carry it in. Once he received the head-man pass, he would either take it in if there was room, or he would circle back and bring the opposing checker(s) towards him, opening up space in the neutral zone for someone to streak through the neutral zone at full flight.

It took Adam Oates to elevate Hull to another level.

Brett Hull's only noteworthy seasons in terms of % lead had much to do with Adam Oates piling on an abnormal number of primary assists. Even with Oates on his line, two of Hull's top three seasons were matched by a post-injury Bure. Without Oates, Hull's peak is probably not that interesting.
---------------------------
With regards to Bure vs Ovechkin (peak season):

I think that the only argument one could make in Bure's favor is with regards to peak.

Bure, unfortunately, had too many injuries and too disjointed a career to determine what could have been possible had he been healthy.

In terms of peak, however, Bure's best two seasons are his 1999-00 season and his 1997-98 season.

Let's once again look at their % lead numbers:

Here are Ovechkin's numbers.

Ovechkin: 63-61-52-52-50-44-43-30-15-6

Here are Bure's.

Bure: 61-55-48-27-10

Bure simply did not have the longevity to compete in terms of career finishes. However, numerous factors must be taken into account with regards to his peak. All three of his seasons in which we finished above 44% (1999-00, 1997-98, 2000-01, in that order) occurred after injuries began to become seriously detrimental to his abilities. Bure was not healthy when he recorded his peak numbers.

In terms of peak season, Bure's 1999-00 season (61% lead) and Ovechkin's 2007-08 season (63%) both cross the 60% plateau. Ovechkin played 82 games in 2007--08 and recorded 65 goals; Bure played just 74 games and recorded 58 goals. Bure's pace over 82 was 64 goals -- very significant based on the % leads system. The 10th-placed finish in 1999-00 scored 36 goals.

If Bure had scored 59 goals, his % lead at face value would have been 64% -- higher than Ovechkin's. If he had finished at 64 goals, his % lead would have been 78%. He missed 8 games.

We also must consider that Bure accomplished this with less talent to work with than Ovechkin that season. Ovechkin was surrounded by Michael Nylander, Niklas Backstrom, Alexander Semin and Mike Green. Viktor Kozlov, who also played with Ovechkin in 2007-08, was Bure's most important teammate in 1999-00. Bure had far less to work with.

Considering those factors, one can conclude that Bure in 1999-00 was a more dominant player than Ovechkin in 2007-08. Peak-wise, there is a strong argument to be made about Bure over Ovechkink, especially since he was 1) damaged, having needed two knee reconstructions before that season; 2) on a lesser team than Ovechkin played with; 3) missed 8 games in 1999-00.

Three crucial factors negatively impacted his season, and yet he was still just one goal shy in eight fewer games of having a more dominant season than Ovechkin's 2007-08 campaign.

In terms of their careers, Bure was robbed of one, so there isn't much point in comparing their careers.
 
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Albatros

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Daniel and Henrik have a near-perfect chemistry almost as if they were identical twins who played all their lives together.
 

Mr Tadakichi

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Nov 23, 2014
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Watching this again, almost none of the pucks hit anybody on the way to the net, even when there was traffic. Just an absolute laser of a shot.

No, I mean slapshot.

Even if you never saw Gretzky live, go watch any of his highlight videos and see how many goals he scores off his slapshot, or off his fake slapshot because the goalie is hyperaware of how accurate it can be.

I'm not talking about a sneaky slapshot either, although he did have that in his repertoire too. I'm talking times where he completely telegraphs the slapshot and he still beats the goalie clean.

And while goaltending back then wasn't up to the standard that it is today, not everyone was scoring 70+ goals a year either.

For any of the younger generation that plays the EA NHL games these days, think of someone that could do the slapshot cheese short AND far side pretty much whenever he wanted to.



His slapshot at 2:38 is ridiculous. He stops on a dime, turns his body around, winds up and fires a shot with velocity top stick side all in one motion.
 

Blade Paradigm

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Oct 21, 2017
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Some mentions of Bure, Selanne, Hull, and Bossy here, so I've used Zuluss' method to calculate the % leads for those players.


I posted this in another thread, so I will post the data and contextual information verbatim from the other thread.

-------------------------------------------------

Below are the calculations for Pavel Bure, Mike Bossy, Mario Lemieux, and Phil Esposito. I've also included Teemu Selanne's results, considering his name is sometimes thrown into the same class as some of these other goal scorers.

Pre-1970 seasons have been adjusted at 60% as specified by Zuluss; 1970-71 to 1996-97 season have been adjusted at 90% as also specified.

Pavel Bure:

61-55-48-27-10

Teemu Selanne:

58-37-21-21-20

Mario Lemieux:

76-42-41-26-25-17-4-4-0

Mike Bossy:

65-38-29-29-25-23-23-8-8

Brett Hull:

82-60-54-22-10-0-0-0

Phil Esposito:

100-80-66-47-34-26-18-10-5

At face value, one can conclude from these numbers that Mike Bossy and Teemu Selanne have the shortest, smallest peaks of the group.

Zuluss states that 44% is the baseline for what would be considered an average goal-scoring lead over the 10th-placed scorer in each respective season.

Selanne and Bossy each have only one of those; Selanne's top-ranked season is not his 1992-93 season -- it is instead his 1997-98 season that is his best, according to these calculations. Selanne has the lowest peak, while Bossy has the biggest drop-off after one season despite playing on a dynasty team.

Brett Hull has three -- all of which were played alongside Adam Oates, who seems to have been the catalyst for his success.

Mario Lemieux has only one, although Zuluss' instructions here only account for end-of-year totals.

Pavel Bure has three, all of which were post-injury finishes (1997-98, 1999-00, 2000-01) on notoriously bad teams with virtually no help. His top-ranked season, the 1999-00 season, was tallied in 74 games played (a pace of 64 goals in 82 games). His second-highest ranked season is his 1997-98 season. All three of these seasons were in a lower-scoring period than Ovechkin's peak (1997-98: 2.64 GPG, 1999-00: 2.75 GPG, 2000-01: 2.76 GPG vs 2007-08: 2.78 GPG).

NHL League Averages | Hockey-Reference.com

Phil Esposito has four, although these all took place during Bobby Orr's peak with the Boston Bruins -- as with Brett Hull, perhaps another case of a goal scorer capitalizing on the abilities of a high-end teammate.

There seems to be the notion that Bure is in a tier with Brett Hull, Teemu Selanne, and Mike Bossy -- that debate needs to be resolved before we move on the argument of where Bure places among the top-tier scorers (and it could only ever be an argument based on peak dominance). Even with Oates on his line, Brett Hull's second-and-third best seasons are not better than Bure's best based on these numbers; take Oates away and I'm not sure even two of those seasons stay above the 44% threshold. Selanne and Bossy are well below both in terms of the lack of dominant goal-scoring seasons that they had (just one each) and, with regards to Bossy especially, based on the talent that they played with.

We need to first be clear that Bure was a better goal scorer than Bossy, Selanne, and Brett Hull were.

@Wondercarrot: Bure was forced to play an individual style of game based on the teams that he played for and the linemates that he was often with. Recently, I tallied the primary assist totals on his goals by teammates for several of his seasons. More often than not, his forward linemates were the players with the most primary assists. Over the course of his career, 60 to 65% of primary assists on his goals were awarded to forwards, while only 20 to 30% went to defencemen; in contrast, Teemu Selanne's 1992-93 season is the epitome of forwards being less important overall to a player's success -- forwards had a primary assist on only 44% of his goals (less than half!) while defencemen had a high 40%; Phil Housley led the team in primary assists on Selanne's goals. The distribution of primary assists on Bure's goals more closely match those on Brett Hull's.

I am on the verge of developing a four-game scouting package centered around Pavel Bure's rookie season. He played with Igor Larionov that year. One significant difference in his game with Larionov on his line was that he often relied on Larionov to carry the puck and dictate the play -- Bure would often make a head-man pass to him off the rush, and in the offensive zone would sneak into open ice while Larionov looked to create a play with the puck on his stick.

Below is the data:

Here are the goal-scoring logs for Bure from the seasons 1991-92, 1992-93, 1993-94, 1999-00, and 2000-01, as well as from Bure's time as a New York Ranger.

The goals are in no particular order.





Here is the goal-scoring log for Bure during his time as a New York Ranger. I have combined the two seasons due to the small sample size of each season; first, his goal-scoring log:

Here are the breakdowns of the primary assists on every Bure goal from those seasons:

1991-92:

22 primary assists by forwards = 64.71%


5 unassisted

7 primary assists by defencemen = 20.59%

1992-93:

39 primary assists by forwards = 65.0%


6 unassisted

15 primary assists by defencemen = 25.0%


1993-94:

34 primary assists by forwards = 56.67%


4 unassisted

22 primary assists by defencemen = 36.67%

1999-00:

37 primary assists by forwards = 63.79%

7 unassisted

14 primary assists by defencemen = 24.14%

2000-01:

35 primary assists by forwards = 59.32%

5 unassisted

1 primary assist by goalie

18 primary assists by defencemen = 30.51%

Pavel Bure as a New York Ranger (2001-02; 2002-03):

19 primary assists by forwards = 61.29%

4 unassisted

8 primary assists by defencemen = 25.81%

------------------------

Notice that, on average, 63% of primary assists on Bure's goals are awarded to forwards -- 1993-94 is slightly lower at 56.67% -- and only 25% go to defencemen. This is a very consistent statistic over the course of Bure's most respected seasons.

We can compare this with the 1992-93 season of a player who, early in his career, relied more on defense than forwards to a much greater degree than Bure -- Teemu Selanne. Teemu was a player who one rightfully could claim would benefit more from elite defence than forward linemates:



Teemu Selanne (1992-93):

34 primary assists by forwards = 44.74%

10 unassisted

1 by goalie

31 primary assists by defencemen = 40.79%

----------------------------------------

We can see just how different the percentages are compared to Bure's. Less than half of Selanne's goals that season featured primary assists from forwards, and the defencemen were within just a few percentage points.

Phil Housley led the group with 15 primary assists, while Alexei Zhamnov had 12, Fred Olausson had 10, and Keith Tkachuk had 8.

This was a much more skilled group than Bure ever worked with, and we can also see just how much more important defencemen were to Selanne's production that season. The myth that Bure would have been better with an elite defenceman than an elite forward should be put to rest. Bure's game required more partnership and teamwork with other forwards even when those forwards were not elite.

Housley: 15 primary assists on Selanne's goals

Zhamnov: 12

Olausson: 10

Tkachuk: 8

Shannon: 4

Steen: 4

Domi: 2

Olczyk: 2

Bautin: 2

Numminen: 2

Ulanov: 2

King: 1

Barnes: 1

Essensa: 1

-------------------------------------------------

Now, let's look at which forwards on Bure's teams received the primary assists on his goals during the sampled seasons so that we understand the caliber of players that Bure worked with:

1991-92:

Larionov: 10 primary assists on Bure's goals

Ronning: 3

Adams: 3

Courtnall: 2

Nedved: 2

Walter: 1

Fergus: 1

----------------------

1992-93:

Adams: 11 primary assists on Bure's goals

Semenov: 8

Courtnall: 5

Ward: 4

Ronning: 3

Nedved: 3

Craven: 2

Momesso: 1

Odjick: 1

Morin: 1

----------------------

1993-94:


Courtnall: 9 primary assists on Bure's goals

Craven: 8

Adams: 5

Carson: 5

Ronning: 4

Odjick: 2

Gelinas: 1

-----------------------

1999-00:

Kozlov: 13 primary assists on Bure's goals

Whitney: 9

Mellanby: 6

Sillinger: 2

Parrish: 1

Neidermayer: 1

Dvorak: 1

Kvasha: 1

Sheppard: 1

Worrell: 1

Johnson: 1

---------------------------

2000-01:

Kozlov - 7 primary assists on Bure's goals

Nilson - 5

Niedermayer - 5

Greg Adams - 3

Sillinger 3

Shvidki - 3

Whitney - 2

Mellanby - 2

Kevyn Adams - 1

Larionov - 1

Barrie - 1

Worrell - 1

Prospal - 1

---------------------------

Bure as a New York Ranger (2001-02; 2002-03)

Lindros - 6 primary assists on Bure's goals

Nedved - 3

Petrovicky - 3

Barnaby - 2

Murray - 2

Rucinsky - 1

Dvorak - 1

Lundmark - 1

---------------------------

The forward who tallied the most primary assists during Bure's first three seasons in Vancouver was his most consistent linemate: Greg Adams. Over the course of two-and-a-half seasons with Bure, Adams tallied 19 primary assists. Ranked either first or second in each of these seasons was his primary center during that campaign: Igor Larionov (1991-92), Anatoli Semenov (1992-93), Murray Craven (1993-94), and Viktor Kozlov (1999-00). Gino Odjick and Jimmy Carson, who each spent time on Bure's line in 1993-94 -- Odjick spent most of that season with Bure --, tallied a handful of primary assists.

-------------------------

I also used Mark Messier as the basis for a comparison of the effect on his goal totals with Bure on his line as opposed to others throughout his career.

The conclusion is that Bure's ability to record a primary assist on Messier's goals was no worse than third-best out of any player that Messier ever played with. Bure had 10 primary assists on Messier's goals in 1997-98; in 14 seasons sampled, only Pat Verbeek (11 in 1995-96) and Wayne Gretzky (12 in 1981-82) had more in a single season. The dropoff in Messier's goals in 1997-98 had everything to do with the team's lack of scoring depth:

I will link to that post here: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/138409373/

-------------------------
Now, let's examine Hull's 1990-91 season, the only one that is distinguished to any significant degree from Bure's best totals in our calculations based on Zuluss' method.

Brett Hull (1990-91):

Oates: 27 primary assists on Hull's goals

Brind'Amour: 7

Stevens: 6

Bassen: 6

Courtnall: 6

Ronning: 5

Gino Cavallini: 5

Paul Cavallini: 4

Brown: 4

Wilson: 3

Featherstone: 2

Lowry: 2

Butcher: 2

Emerson: 1

Snepsts: 1

Roberts: 1

-------------------------

Now, consider that Courtnall and Ronning had a similar number of assists on Bure's goals in each of his seasons with Vancouver as they did on Hull's goals in 1990-91.

However, instead of Oates, Bure had Semenov, Adams, Odjick, Craven, and Carson as linemates in his two best years with the Canucks.

-------------------------

Hull's success had much to do with Adam Oates. He had nowhere near the same amount of success with Craig Janney or Wayne Gretzky.

I think St. Louis had the over-simplified notion that putting a playmaker and a goal-scorer together would be successful, and they underestimated Oates' ability to play off of Hull's tendencies. In 30 games together, regular season and playoffs combined, Wayne Gretzky had the primary assist on only 4 of Hull's 15 goals. Corson to Hull happened 5 times.

Brett Hull: February 29, 1996 to May 16, 1996 (30 games with Gretzky):

Corson - 5 primary assists on Hull's goals

Gretzky - 4

Khmylev - 1

Baron - 1

Pronger - 1

3 unassisted

-------------------

Their styles of play did not suit one another at all. In addition to the Bure video package, I am in the midst of forming a Gretzky shift-by-shift scouting package, and the tendencies I've noticed from Gretzky are that he loved to play high in the zone and wait for the outlet pass; he stayed high in his own zone when the puck was in the defensive end; when the play started going the other way, he would head up the ice, and if the Oilers were looking to break out with the opponent backed off, he would wait at the opposing blue line for one of his teammates to carry it in. Once he received the head-man pass, he would either take it in if there was room, or he would circle back and bring the opposing checker(s) towards him, opening up space in the neutral zone for someone to streak through the neutral zone at full flight.

It took Adam Oates to elevate Hull to another level.

Brett Hull's only noteworthy seasons in terms of % lead had much to do with Adam Oates piling on an abnormal number of primary assists. Even with Oates on his line, two of Hull's top three seasons were matched by a post-injury Bure. Without Oates, Hull's peak is probably not that interesting.
I've decided to calculate the % leads for a few more highly-regarded goal scorers. All of the numbers have been adjusted accordingly based on era. Each number represents a Top 10 finish and the percentage lead over the 10th-placed goal scorer that season. Highlighted in green are those finishes that are above the 44% "above average" threshold. Here are their results:

Cam Neely:

20-12-8-3

Steve Yzerman:

37-34-12-7-6-4

Jarome Iginla:

41-26-25-24

Joe Sakic:

35-8-6-5-0

Guy Lafleur:

50-45-29-27-27-6

Jari Kurri:

49-43-26-10

Peter Bondra:

58-28-13-10-9-5

Kurri, even with Gretzky's help, only surpassed the 44% mark once, and has a rather low peak relative to the truly "elite" goal scorers.

We see that Joe Sakic, Jarome Iginla, and Steve Yzerman are in a lower tier compared to the others that have been discussed in this thread -- none of them break the 44% threshold.

Peter Bondra has the same peak in the same year as Teemu Selanne (52 goals in 1997-98), but an even larger drop-off than Selanne. He has just one season above the 44% mark.

Lafleur and Kurri have a very similar peak in terms of goal-scoring.

Cam Neely doesn't have much to show for his career; his 20% leading season is his 1989-90 season with Craig Janney as his center. His 12% lead is his 1990-91 season, before the Ulf Samuelsson incident.

Neely's 1993-94 season was cut short, but we can evaluate the number of goals he would have needed to score to reach certain % lead thresholds. The 10th-placed scorers that season scored 46 goals. To reach a 44% percentage lead, Neely would have needed to score 69 goals (for a 45% lead over 10th place). For a 50% lead, he would have needed to score 72 goals (51% lead). For a 60% percentage lead, Neely would have needed to score 77 goals that season (61%).

Neely was still quite a long way away from having an elite goal-scoring season in 1993-94.
 
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Cloned

Begging for Bega
Aug 25, 2003
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Gretzky was never thought of as having a weak slapshot. He was never a Macinnis but his velocity was above average

And it wasn't just "accurate" it was absurdly accurate.

Pretty much this.

Whenever he wound up for his slapper it was like he was playing a golf video game where you have that little meter that goes up and down to control power and direction. And he would almost always hit the sweet spot. Some of the shots where he just zips the puck along the ice right next to the post are ridiculous. You couldn't place a shot any better if you picked the puck up with your hand and put it in the net.
 
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Oilers Propagandist

Relax junior, it’s just a post.
Aug 27, 2016
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LOL! Wut?!? :D
I hate the Canucks, they owned us. Watching the sedins in their prime cycle and keep possession for minutes at a time, leading to a pp or a goal was sometimes mesmerizing.

Regrading how they compare to gretz and kurri, I have no clue. Just my experience watching the Sedins play in their prime a lot.
 

BLONG7

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Oct 30, 2002
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#99 was the best.............the stats show it, and the eye test...the talent compared to others, was just amazing...there were other great players during this time, but #99 leaves people in the dust.
 
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Hockeypete49

How you like me now!
Mar 22, 2009
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In my humble opinion, no, Gretzky isn't the best goal scorer. To me, Lemieux is.

I agree. Had Mario been healthy his stats would have been mind blowing. Yes in my opinion Super Mario was a way better goal scorer then Gretzky. This is no knock on the great one at all cause my personal Mt. Rushmore of NHL players of all time is Gordie, Bobby, Mario and Wayne.
 

Edge

Kris King's Ghost
Mar 1, 2002
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At the end of the day, factors such as health have to be considered in the conversation.

There may be guys who were more dangerous goal scorers, at their peaks or at their healthiest, but for a variety of reasons they didn't finish close to Gretzky.

Gretzky's combination of skill, overall health, and longevity make him the greatest.

It starts getting very hypothetical when you start trying to talk about if a certain player was healthy, or if a player played in a different era, or with a different team.

At the end of the day, to be the best, a lot of variables have to fall into the right place at the right time. And with Gretzky they did, by a good margin.
 
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Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
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Gretzky was just 23 the last time he lead the NHL in goals per game

Seems kinda young for the greatest of all-time

I'll put my money on Mario
 

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