how about trying spliting the twins apart? put hank with higgins/roy. kesler/danny/burrows. almost every team knows how to beat the twins. end their cycle game and punish them physically even though the sharks dman arent that physical.
Roy?
I might be completely off-base with this because admittedly I haven't been watching the team very closely this season nor have I been following these boards until just recently. But I figure any discussion other than "blow up the team" is good. Still, apologies for what is likely going to be an all over the place, incoherent ramble of a post.
The real change I see in the team between 2011 and now is that they're no longer looking to kill teams by scoring. They're too passive. Or should I say, passive-aggressive. The whole mantra they had about "burning teams on the scoreboard"? It's gone. TSN counted 37 hits as of the 5 minute mark of the third period, at which point the Canucks were still winning. Great. Passion. Heart. Grit. All things that the Canucks need in order to win. Or so we've been told ever since the Boston series. What they weren't providing however, were offensive chances. Scoring chances.
Sure playoff hockey is about guys like Torres making massive game changing hits. We saw Hansen do that with his hit on Galiardi. But the Canucks with the Sedins and the ever-so-frail Ryan Kesler are never going to get anywhere playing that style of hockey. Zach Kassian took a penalty that cost the Canucks the game playing that style of hockey.
This sounds preposterous to even type, but I think the reason the Sedins disappear in the playoffs is not because the other team starts hitting more, it's because the Canucks start hitting more. Look at that play by JVR in the Toronto game that led directly to the Horton goal from the shot by Redden. He literally avoided the puck to make the hit. While I'm not saying the Canucks shouldn't be physical, at this point the offensive numbers are so bad, I think they're collectively sacrificing offensively play in order to provide something they aren't capable of; physicality.
The makeup of the Canucks from the coaching staff to the player personnel calls for a finesse game with strong play along the boards and a great transition game starting from the backend. They do not have the players to have a terrific north-south game scoring goals off the rush. They don't have the players to crash the net and bang pucks in. But it's not like they're crashing the net; pretty much every chance on Niemi was a weak wrister from the perimeter. Or a over-passed play from a bad angle.
Really, the only conclusion I can come to is that the team needs to start playing to it's strengths again. Stop trying to be the 2011 Boston Bruins or 2012 LA Kings. Whether this can be accomplished on it's own, or through a coaching change, or even if it can be done at all, I don't know.
I will say for all the Vigneault detractors - he got the most out of that 2007 team by running an air-tight defensive system, then was able to make the transition to running an absolute offensive juggernaut in 2011. The guy knows how to deal with the players he's been given. At the same time, he's never had a hypothetical 1-2-3 offensive trio of centers like Sedin-Kesler-Roy and them not producing anywhere near what they should be does suggest something may have changed.
I really don't think the player personnel is the problem though. Even if the Sedins are "70 point guys" now, this teams roster is much too talented to be playing as weak as they have been. The defense collectively should be the best in the league despite not having a true two-way number one like Keith or Suter, or a gamebreaker like Subban or Karlsson. Especially with the emergence of Tanev last year and now Corrado. Dump Ballard, keep Alberts as the 7th guy, and along with Schneider that's as solid as a backend as you'll get in the league as far as personnel.
At the beginning of the series, I said SJ in 6. I stand by that, but only because of how bad the Canucks looked tonight. Mainly the Sedins. However, Thornton did not explode like I thought he would. SJ was simply less bad than Vancouver.
panic move, put Kass with the Twins and Burrows with kes and Higgins with Roy, great balance and Roy will be more effective
Maybe that is the issue though. When you follow a team so closely that every decision/non decision is picked over to death, the perspective is lost?
I think Ive laid out a pretty good case that this is a personnel issue and not a coaching issue. Granted you guys would be more knowledgeable about the latter, Im not getting much agreement on the former, and I think my points are all pretty solid.
Sure Garrison is doing well. Now. But the contract was a huge gamble. How can that even be a question? Great if it works out for you, but there have been a couple swing and miss deals with Florida already. Gillis is reckless imo. The Luongo cap circumvention deal is hurting the organization. How can that be disputed? That alone could be a firing offense, never mind the other questionable personnel decisions. Those are more glaring than anything AV has done or not done imo.
Although I will say I thought icing an ahl roster and leaving Luongo out to dry in the final regular season game was a bad, bad call. Especially if Schneider was questionable for game one. Maybe you have some other examples of AV's questionable decisions that warrant his firing over Gillis?
I might be completely off-base with this because admittedly I haven't been watching the team very closely this season nor have I been following these boards until just recently. But I figure any discussion other than "blow up the team" is good. Still, apologies for what is likely going to be an all over the place, incoherent ramble of a post.
The real change I see in the team between 2011 and now is that they're no longer looking to kill teams by scoring. They're too passive. Or should I say, passive-aggressive. The whole mantra they had about "burning teams on the scoreboard"? It's gone. TSN counted 37 hits as of the 5 minute mark of the third period, at which point the Canucks were still winning. Great. Passion. Heart. Grit. All things that the Canucks need in order to win. Or so we've been told ever since the Boston series. What they weren't providing however, were offensive chances. Scoring chances.
Sure playoff hockey is about guys like Torres making massive game changing hits. We saw Hansen do that with his hit on Galiardi. But the Canucks with the Sedins and the ever-so-frail Ryan Kesler are never going to get anywhere playing that style of hockey. Zach Kassian took a penalty that cost the Canucks the game playing that style of hockey.
This sounds preposterous to even type, but I think the reason the Sedins disappear in the playoffs is not because the other team starts hitting more, it's because the Canucks start hitting more. Look at that play by JVR in the Toronto game that led directly to the Horton goal from the shot by Redden. He literally avoided the puck to make the hit. While I'm not saying the Canucks shouldn't be physical, at this point the offensive numbers are so bad, I think they're collectively sacrificing offensively play in order to provide something they aren't capable of; physicality.
The makeup of the Canucks from the coaching staff to the player personnel calls for a finesse game with strong play along the boards and a great transition game starting from the backend. They do not have the players to have a terrific north-south game scoring goals off the rush. They don't have the players to crash the net and bang pucks in. But it's not like they're crashing the net; pretty much every chance on Niemi was a weak wrister from the perimeter. Or a over-passed play from a bad angle.
Really, the only conclusion I can come to is that the team needs to start playing to it's strengths again. Stop trying to be the 2011 Boston Bruins or 2012 LA Kings. Whether this can be accomplished on it's own, or through a coaching change, or even if it can be done at all, I don't know.
I will say for all the Vigneault detractors - he got the most out of that 2007 team by running an air-tight defensive system, then was able to make the transition to running an absolute offensive juggernaut in 2011. The guy knows how to deal with the players he's been given. At the same time, he's never had a hypothetical 1-2-3 offensive trio of centers like Sedin-Kesler-Roy and them not producing anywhere near what they should be does suggest something may have changed.
I really don't think the player personnel is the problem though. Even if the Sedins are "70 point guys" now, this teams roster is much too talented to be playing as weak as they have been. The defense collectively should be the best in the league despite not having a true two-way number one like Keith or Suter, or a gamebreaker like Subban or Karlsson. Especially with the emergence of Tanev last year and now Corrado. Dump Ballard, keep Alberts as the 7th guy, and along with Schneider that's as solid as a backend as you'll get in the league as far as personnel.
At the beginning of the series, I said SJ in 6. I stand by that, but only because of how bad the Canucks looked tonight. Mainly the Sedins. However, Thornton did not explode like I thought he would. SJ was simply less bad than Vancouver.
roy doesnt fit alongside hansen/raymond. reunite roy/higgins. is a.v blind. did he not see the one game or so when higgins came back from his injury? and they instantly clicked.
it's a good start and basically replaces Hodgson, but look at the wingers. every year we have 3rd line wingers in the top 6... why? It's proven to not work in the playoffs.. why would it work this year?
Nucks have the worst goal differential among all the playoffs teams except Minnesota and NY Islanders. Add the division we play in and it is a wonder that some were entertaining a deep run.
Well thought-out, even if I don't agree with exactly everything. We did lead all playoff teams in hits/game in that 2011 run so there may be something to it. Yet at the same time, the Bruins were the 2nd most physical team in that postseason and their offense was fine - being able to score 3+ goals/game.
Was health the difference? We were injury-ravaged while the Bruins weren't so I'm not sure, yet we're relatively healthy as a team right now compared to earlier in the season (knock on wood!).
I definitely agree with you about the way this team plays and the change in style that seems to have occurred since that dominant year we had. You could tell from the way they sat back once they had a lead for much of this season, and while that had nothing to do with how the score played out tonight, the offense just seems to be missing something. And I'm inclined to think that it's not the personnel that's the issue here.
it's a good start and basically replaces Hodgson, but look at the wingers. every year we have 3rd line wingers in the top 6... why? It's proven to not work in the playoffs.. why would it work this year?
Nucks have the worst goal differential among all the playoffs teams except Minnesota and NY Islanders. Add the division we play in and it is a wonder that some were entertaining a deep run.
Sestito likely will, but he is also competing with a very competent Dale Wiese who is currently injured who plays PK for us and had been an awesome surprise. So pending his health and the health of our d (Ballard is playing 4th line), Sestito might get a shot if AV feels Canucks are being outmuscled
The problem is that if you take out the Boston series, out Goals For average was 2.78 - which would have put us slightly ahead of NASHVILLE.
We also scored a ton of goals against the Sharks (the number of 3+ goal games in that series almost equals the number of 3+ goal games in ALL of the other series combined), so if you take out the Sharks we
Pre-Sharks: 2.31 GF with 2.54 GA
Pre-Boston: 2.78 GF with 2.56 GA
Total: 2.32 GA with 2.76 GA
Basically at no point did we sustain enough production to overcome a 2.76 GAA. That's pathetic, and the trend has continued to today. Hopefully it ends and the team goes on a lengthy run. But indications aren't good and they aren't improved by previous history.
Just for comparison's sake, the Bruins that year outscored their GAA by 0.72 before meeting us (3.22 GF over 2.5 GA). They didn't score more against us compared to previously, but we scored less than their previous opponents (Bruins were 3.24 GF over 2.12 GA against the Canucks that year). So we fared almost half a goal worse on average than did the Flyers, Habs and Lightning.
Our scoring average against the Bruins is truly pathetic:
Habs 2.43
Flyers 1.75
Lightning 3.00
Canucks 1.14
Anyways, fun times.
I'm out of town and didnt get to watch the game. But averaging out the reactions of when we beat Chicago and after last nights game, I'd say this is pretty bad reaction from fans.
We have beat San Jose before. But we also know our team is super streaky. We were losing going in and it's up to guys like Kesler, Burrows and Bieksa to help us win a detrimental game 2 and 3.
Raymond is a top 6 winger - he's scored at that rate in the past. Hansen has for 2 straight years now. Booth is one. Higgins has multiple 20+ goal seasons under his belt. And here by top 6 I mean "at least 2nd line level".
Look at a guy like Galiardi who's playing on SJS's 1st line - is he a top 6 winger?