Post-Game Talk: GM 1: Sharks def. Canucks 3-1 - Lead series 1-0

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oct 15, 2008
40,483
5,613
On the whole, what's worth more to the team? A depth player that is scratched and may be used at a later date, or unused cap space. That's the real question at hand. For me, the player is useful because... you know... we can use him.

The Canucks are up against the cap.

http://capgeek.com/

With a sizable decrease in the cap coming as soon as next year, and a back up goalie making 5mill, that hinders what the Canucks can do as far as bringing in someone who actually can play in the lineup and be effective no? Ballard et all are still on the cap too are they not? So it does make a difference, not only towards cap flexibility but by also taking up a roster spot.

How can anyone say Ballard hasnt been a disappointment? Or Booth even? Or not moving Luongo? Or the Hodgson trade?

These are management issues, not coaching. AV has done a pretty good job for the most part considering. jmo.

Garrison signing is a questionable move? I don't even know what to say to that...

A 28yr old dman with a couple of years in the league under his belt, and one really good year......... giving him a six year deal at close to 5mill per is a gamble to say the least. Glad he is working out for you, but you never know what is around the corner.
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,811
4,060
I seem to remember when Babcock called a timeout VS Canucks, he also had an assistant draw up a play, and he was just looking at it.

Thanks. Just wondering how many other teams did this.

A 28yr old dman with a couple of years in the league under his belt, and one really good year......... giving him a six year deal at close to 5mill per is a gamble to say the least. Glad he is working out for you, but you never know what is around the corner.

On pace for 14 goals this season. So 2 really good years, if you're only looking at his stats on the surface...

You've hated the Canucks since the day you were born - how does that make you a "neutral observer"?

:laugh:
 
Oct 15, 2008
40,483
5,613
You've hated the Canucks since the day you were born - how does that make you a "neutral observer"?

Not true. I used to not mind the Canucks at all in the Troy Gamble/Kirk Mclean/Bure/Ronning days of yore. That was a gutsy, exciting team. Didnt mind the Tiger Williams/Harold Snepsts/Roger Neilson era either.

Just giving my honest assessment as an outsider. I dont think coaching is the problem.

Besides, the Canucks didnt exist when I was born, so there's that.
 

DennisReynolds

the implication
Dec 11, 2011
5,269
0
A 28yr old dman with a couple of years in the league under his belt, and one really good year......... giving him a six year deal at close to 5mill per is a gamble to say the least. Glad he is working out for you, but you never know what is around the corner.
How many games have you watched Garrison play? I'm assuming only when Canucks played against the Oilers.
 

Henrik To Daniel

Registered User
Jun 16, 2012
1,952
0
Burnaby
One thing that I found interesting was that TSN pointed out that the Sharks' coach had the back-up goalie keep track of who was winning faceoffs and how many they were winning. Canucks should do something like that.
 

PG Canuck

Registered User
Mar 29, 2010
63,381
25,201
Not true. I used to not mind the Canucks at all in the Troy Gamble/Kirk Mclean/Bure/Ronning days of yore. That was a gutsy, exciting team.

Just giving my honest assessment as an outsider. I dont think coaching is the problem.

Besides, the Canucks didnt exist when I was born, so there's that.

Watch an 82 game season + playoffs and your opinion would change.
 

mossey3535

Registered User
Feb 7, 2011
13,724
10,614
Not true. I used to not mind the Canucks at all in the Troy Gamble/Kirk Mclean/Bure/Ronning days of yore. That was a gutsy, exciting team.

Just giving my honest assessment as an outsider. I dont think coaching is the problem.

I'd say you're wrong then. You might have a point if this team was allowed to play the style that they are built to...and then also failed miserably.

The problem we have is that we've played each of the last three playoffs like a big, physical LA-Kings style of team - except that we can't score 2.85 goals per game AND play good defence of course - but even good acquisitions like Roy don't fit in the mould of a big, grinding player on that type of team.

It's funny to watch the Canucks come out hitting when they haven't done a lick of it all year. Do they expect to keep that up for the whole playoffs all of a sudden?

Our coaching is decent in the regular season but in the playoffs it's poor at best.
 

struckmatch

Registered User
Jul 28, 2003
4,224
0
Vancouver
I seriously do not want to hear a thing about Luongo tonight.

I may snap if I read about him tonight.

He was the ONLY reason this game was scoreless into the 2nd and made some monster saves early on.

This team needs serious help. Just absolutely no drive, passion, enery, intensity, and most of all...FINISH.

The Sedins were terrible tonight. Flat out bad. Generated nothing all night.

Kesler was useless. Yeah, injured, maybe playing hurt, what else is new? Anyone else sick of it? Bad luck, I know, but eventually it gets old.

Burrows, was he even on the ice tonight? I've never called him invisible in a playoff game before, but man he was nowhere to be found tonight.

At the end of the day, there were just too many passengers tonight.

The Canucks really know how to say all the right things, but can't execute for **** tonight. Very similar start to LA last year.

Embarrassing "effort" from the Canucks tonight.
 

mossey3535

Registered User
Feb 7, 2011
13,724
10,614
One thing that I found interesting was that TSN pointed out that the Sharks' coach had the back-up goalie keep track of who was winning faceoffs and how many they were winning. Canucks should do something like that.

The Canucks keep faceoff stats - and it's available on the NHL game sheets. Only question is whether they have access to realtime information. It's probably just there so Greiss remains engaged.
 

mossey3535

Registered User
Feb 7, 2011
13,724
10,614
I seriously do not want to hear a thing about Luongo tonight.

I may snap if I read about him tonight.

He was the ONLY reason this game was scoreless into the 2nd and made some monster saves early on.

This team needs serious help. Just absolutely no drive, passion, enery, intensity, and most of all...FINISH.

The Sedins were terrible tonight. Flat out bad. Generated nothing all night.

Kesler was useless. Yeah, injured, maybe playing hurt, what else is new? Anyone else sick of it? Bad luck, I know, but eventually it gets old.

Burrows, was he even on the ice tonight? I've never called him invisible in a playoff game before, but man he was nowhere to be found tonight.

At the end of the day, there were just too many passengers tonight.

The Canucks really know how to say all the right things, but can't execute for **** tonight. Very similar start to LA last year.

Embarrassing "effort" from the Canucks tonight.

Half the team doesn't show up and Schenids or Lu save our *****. We've all seen this movie before. :cry:
 

Derp Kassian

Registered User
Jul 14, 2012
2,739
143
Vancouver
Just a neutral observer here, but I think the problem lies with management moreso than coaching.

Gillis has made some very questionable moves during his tenure and it is hard to say whether he has helped the team or hurt the team.

-Ballard trade
-Luongo contract
-Booth trade
-Kassian for Hodgson
-Garrison signing

A lot of these moves are fairly questionable. I mean, what is AV supposed to do with that? Add in the Kesler injury woes and he has had his hands tied for the most part.

There is nothing wrong with the Booth trade since they gave up nothing. Garrison was a fantastic signing. Kassian for Hodgson can't be judged yet but obv Hodgson has been better on early return.
 

Henrik To Daniel

Registered User
Jun 16, 2012
1,952
0
Burnaby
The Canucks keep faceoff stats - and it's available on the NHL game sheets. Only question is whether they have access to realtime information. It's probably just there so Greiss remains engaged.

I don't think they have access to information regarding who was winning/losing faceoffs against who from the other team, which I believe was also one of Greiss' responsibilities
 

PG Canuck

Registered User
Mar 29, 2010
63,381
25,201
The Canucks keep faceoff stats - and it's available on the NHL game sheets. Only question is whether they have access to realtime information. It's probably just there so Greiss remains engaged.

They probably have Greiss keep track of specific things, and the SJ coaching staff always want to check in-game about faceoffs, at least that's what TSN said. Easier access I guess, plus as you mentioned, gives Greiss something to do. :laugh:
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,811
4,060
The Canucks keep faceoff stats - and it's available on the NHL game sheets. Only question is whether they have access to realtime information. It's probably just there so Greiss remains engaged.

Apparently it was so McLellan could know right away which centers were doing well against who on faceoffs. :dunno:
 

Bleach Clean

Registered User
Aug 9, 2006
27,179
6,891
The Canucks are up against the cap.

http://capgeek.com/

With a sizable decrease in the cap coming as soon as next year, and a back up goalie making 5mill, that hinders what the Canucks can do as far as bringing in someone who actually can play in the lineup and be effective no? Ballard et all are still on the cap too are they not? So it does make a difference, not only towards cap flexibility but by also taking up a roster spot.

How can anyone say Ballard hasnt been a disappointment? Or Booth even? Or not moving Luongo? Or the Hodgson trade?

These are management issues, not coaching. AV has done a pretty good job for the most part considering. jmo.



How is having a player worse than having cap space for a playoff team? Even if that player doesn't dress for a few games. That's the reason behind keeping Ballard. It's the also the reason behind keeping Luongo.

I like Booth so we won't agree there.

The Hodgson trade is one of projection. There's no way Hodgson alone pulls a fully realized Kassian. That's the theory behind it. But of course, Kassian is the more raw of the two, so people will judge it as it is now, not what it could be in the future. Which is what people should be doing with a 22 year old forward.


A 28yr old dman with a couple of years in the league under his belt, and one really good year......... giving him a six year deal at close to 5mill per is a gamble to say the least. Glad he is working out for you, but you never know what is around the corner.



That 28 year old Dman had two years of superb defensive play, regardless of the goals. That's what he was signed for. The goals are a bonus. In a league where Tim Gleason pulls 4m dollars, Garrison getting what he is, doing what he does, is an absolute bargain. He's an all situation Dman that eats the toughest minutes on the team. He also plays the most. For all intents and purposes, he is perhaps the best Dman on the team. You are completely and utterly wrong about him.
 
Oct 15, 2008
40,483
5,613
Watch an 82 game season + playoffs and your opinion would change.

Maybe that is the issue though. When you follow a team so closely that every decision/non decision is picked over to death, the perspective is lost?

I think Ive laid out a pretty good case that this is a personnel issue and not a coaching issue. Granted you guys would be more knowledgeable about the latter, Im not getting much agreement on the former, and I think my points are all pretty solid.

Sure Garrison is doing well. Now. But the contract was a huge gamble. How can that even be a question? Great if it works out for you, but there have been a couple swing and miss deals with Florida already. Gillis is reckless imo. The Luongo cap circumvention deal is hurting the organization. How can that be disputed? That alone could be a firing offense, never mind the other questionable personnel decisions. Those are more glaring than anything AV has done or not done imo.

Although I will say I thought icing an ahl roster and leaving Luongo out to dry in the final regular season game was a bad, bad call. Especially if Schneider was questionable for game one. Maybe you have some other examples of AV's questionable decisions that warrant his firing over Gillis?
 

CherryToke

Registered User
Oct 18, 2008
26,735
8,218
Coquitlam
Not true. I used to not mind the Canucks at all in the Troy Gamble/Kirk Mclean/Bure/Ronning days of yore. That was a gutsy, exciting team. Didnt mind the Tiger Williams/Harold Snepsts/Roger Neilson era either.

Just giving my honest assessment as an outsider. I dont think coaching is the problem.

Besides, the Canucks didnt exist when I was born, so there's that.

coaching is definitely a problem.. but I agree Gillis is also a problem. He has done a **** job of building secondary scoring on this team. Trading Hodgson without getting scoring back was the final straw for me, and he seems to be living in denial trying to prove everyone wrong. He needs to go, but so does Vinyo.

Garrison is awesome BTW.. but our coach is too stupid to use him on the first unit PP.
 

mossey3535

Registered User
Feb 7, 2011
13,724
10,614
I don't think they have access to information regarding who was winning/losing faceoffs against who from the other team, which I believe was also one of Greiss' responsibilities

You could have a guy in the pressbox doing that from above, and it would probably be a lot easier.
 

vancityluongo

curse of the strombino
Sponsor
Jul 8, 2006
18,751
6,515
Edmonton
I might be completely off-base with this because admittedly I haven't been watching the team very closely this season nor have I been following these boards until just recently. But I figure any discussion other than "blow up the team" is good. Still, apologies for what is likely going to be an all over the place, incoherent ramble of a post.

The real change I see in the team between 2011 and now is that they're no longer looking to kill teams by scoring. They're too passive. Or should I say, passive-aggressive. The whole mantra they had about "burning teams on the scoreboard"? It's gone. TSN counted 37 hits as of the 5 minute mark of the third period, at which point the Canucks were still winning. Great. Passion. Heart. Grit. All things that the Canucks need in order to win. Or so we've been told ever since the Boston series. What they weren't providing however, were offensive chances. Scoring chances.

Sure playoff hockey is about guys like Torres making massive game changing hits. We saw Hansen do that with his hit on Galiardi. But the Canucks with the Sedins and the ever-so-frail Ryan Kesler are never going to get anywhere playing that style of hockey. Zach Kassian took a penalty that cost the Canucks the game playing that style of hockey.

This sounds preposterous to even type, but I think the reason the Sedins disappear in the playoffs is not because the other team starts hitting more, it's because the Canucks start hitting more. Look at that play by JVR in the Toronto game that led directly to the Horton goal from the shot by Redden. He literally avoided the puck to make the hit. While I'm not saying the Canucks shouldn't be physical, at this point the offensive numbers are so bad, I think they're collectively sacrificing offensively play in order to provide something they aren't capable of; physicality.

The makeup of the Canucks from the coaching staff to the player personnel calls for a finesse game with strong play along the boards and a great transition game starting from the backend. They do not have the players to have a terrific north-south game scoring goals off the rush. They don't have the players to crash the net and bang pucks in. But it's not like they're crashing the net; pretty much every chance on Niemi was a weak wrister from the perimeter. Or a over-passed play from a bad angle.

Really, the only conclusion I can come to is that the team needs to start playing to it's strengths again. Stop trying to be the 2011 Boston Bruins or 2012 LA Kings. Whether this can be accomplished on it's own, or through a coaching change, or even if it can be done at all, I don't know.

I will say for all the Vigneault detractors - he got the most out of that 2007 team by running an air-tight defensive system, then was able to make the transition to running an absolute offensive juggernaut in 2011. The guy knows how to deal with the players he's been given. At the same time, he's never had a hypothetical 1-2-3 offensive trio of centers like Sedin-Kesler-Roy and them not producing anywhere near what they should be does suggest something may have changed.

I really don't think the player personnel is the problem though. Even if the Sedins are "70 point guys" now, this teams roster is much too talented to be playing as weak as they have been. The defense collectively should be the best in the league despite not having a true two-way number one like Keith or Suter, or a gamebreaker like Subban or Karlsson. Especially with the emergence of Tanev last year and now Corrado. Dump Ballard, keep Alberts as the 7th guy, and along with Schneider that's as solid as a backend as you'll get in the league as far as personnel.

At the beginning of the series, I said SJ in 6. I stand by that, but only because of how bad the Canucks looked tonight. Mainly the Sedins. However, Thornton did not explode like I thought he would. SJ was simply less bad than Vancouver.
 

PG Canuck

Registered User
Mar 29, 2010
63,381
25,201
You could have a guy in the pressbox doing that from above, and it would probably be a lot easier.

Greiss is right there on the bench, so probably easier to quickly check the stats he's gathered, and communicate about. :dunno:
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,811
4,060
coaching is definitely a problem.. but I agree Gillis is also a problem. He has done a **** job of building secondary scoring on this team. Trading Hodgson without getting scoring back was the final straw for me, and he seems to be living in denial trying to prove everyone wrong. He needs to go, but so does Vinyo.

Garrison is awesome BTW.. but our coach is too stupid to use him on the first unit PP.

Roy?

Greiss is right there on the bench, so probably easier to quickly check the stats he's gathered, and communicate about. :dunno:

It'd be cool to see coaches with headsets on though. I've always thought we could do something like that - have an 'eye in the sky' like what Bowman does for Chicago, but communicate with the coach on the spot, in-game. Unless the NHL forbids it, we should be aiming to use more technology in the game to our benefit.
 

David71

Registered User
Dec 27, 2008
17,244
1,620
vancouver
how about trying spliting the twins apart? put hank with higgins/roy. kesler/danny/burrows. almost every team knows how to beat the twins. end their cycle game and punish them physically even though the sharks dman arent that physical.
 

mossey3535

Registered User
Feb 7, 2011
13,724
10,614
But the whole point of getting the back-up to do it is to have access to the information on the spot.

They have radios. The backup spot is terrible anyways, in some rinks the backup can't even see the ice, let alone see who won a draw.

Anyways, I think it's a big deal about something probably 100% of the league does already but they didn't see it on TV. The assistant coaches often do it - watch them, they all have little clipboards and notebooks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad