Getzlaf + Kucherov vs Thornton + Pastrnak

[Sun God Nika]

give me the winners/champions.

 

[Toby91ca]

There’s a lot more to it than just career highs. League scoring makes the gap between Thornton and Getzlaf look bigger than it was.

I’m sorry, but what? I think you need to expand on what you mean here a little better. From what I can tell, they both played in the league the same seasons except for the early part of Joe’s career, which was played in one of the lowest scoring eras in league history.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

There’s a lot more to it than just career highs. League scoring makes the gap between Thornton and Getzlaf look bigger than it was. Getzlaf finished 2nd in league scoring in his best year. Thornton was still the better regular season player, but he was never able to perform in the playoffs like his regular seasons, while Getzlaf’s numbers are much better there.

Kucherov also has the playoff advantage over Pasta. Plus his 18-19 season was lower scoring than last year, and this year he has a considerable advantage as well. Bergeron and Marchand were great linemates. Regular season is closer here but still Kucherov. And playoffs is Kucherov by a larger gap.

Thornton and Pasta probably work better as a duo, and if it’s the regular season, probably a better combo overall. Taking two of them to play either together or on separate lines in the playoffs though, and it’s pretty hard not to take Getzlaf and Kucherov

Not really

Thornton's 125 pts in 2006 was with a league average of 3.08 GPG. Getzlaf's 91 pts were in a year with a league average of 2.91, only 5.8% lower. If we adjust Thornton to that scoring level he still has 118 points. Hell, adjusting his assists that year he has 90 assists to Getzlaf's 91 points. Not to mention Thornton also had 114 points in a lower scoring year than Getzlaf's 91. The league average in 2008 when he had 114 was 2.78

In an era of the same league scoring, Thornton has 2 seasons with more assists (96 and 92) than Getzlaf ever had total points.

Using Getzlaf's 2009 season as the base:

Player	Points	League Average	Adjusted Points
Getzlaf	91	2.91	91
Thornton	125	3.08	118
Thornton	114	2.78	119

 

[Play]

Not really

Thornton's 125 pts in 2006 was with a league average of 3.08 GPG. Getzlaf's 91 pts were in a year with a league average of 2.91, only 5.8% lower. If we adjust Thornton to that scoring level he still has 118 points. Hell, adjusting his assists that year he has 90 assists to Getzlaf's 91 points. Not to mention Thornton also had 114 points in a lower scoring year than Getzlaf's 91. The league average in 2008 when he had 114 was 2.78

In an era of the same league scoring, Thornton has 2 seasons with more assists (96 and 92) than Getzlaf ever had total points.

Using Getzlaf's 2009 season as the base:

Player	Points	League Average	Adjusted Points
Getzlaf	91	2.91	91
Thornton	125	3.08	118
Thornton	114	2.78	119

Wait a minute

 

[abo9]

I voted hastily Thornton and Pastrnak because, wow, that duo would be lethal on paper.

But Thornton is too much of a playoff disappointment. And regardless of how I torture the data, he was just underwhelming. His best playoff was probably at 36, far away from his peak. At his peak he was able to touch 100 pts in the regular season, but barely ppg in his best (short) runs in the playoffs.

A guy like Getzlaf didn't have the same regular season success, but had 4 playoff runs over a ppg, while being dominant.

And Kuch > Pastrnak obviously, although Pastrnak is a beast himself.

I tried to put the blame on Thornton's teammates, but Pavelski, Marleau in particular, performed as well in the RS as in the playoffs, points-wise. Not sure what it was, but Thornton really didn't cut it as a playoff performer.

Long winded answer.... but give me Kucherov and Getzlaf

 

[M88K]

Thornton and Pasta.
imo
Kucherov >Thornton >= Pasta >Getz
There's a bigger gap between Thornton/Pasta and Getz than the lead Kuch has.

 

[Sky04]

People underrating prime Joe Thornton.

They are, but prime Getzlaf was just absolute force in the playoffs, his all round game and physical edge top Thornton for me. Thornton and Pasta probably put up better regular season numbers but you know the Getzlaf/Kucherov combo is winning more playoff games.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

They are, but prime Getzlaf was just absolute force in the playoffs, his all round game and physical edge top Thornton for me. Thornton and Pasta probably put up better regular season numbers but you know the Getzlaf/Kucherov combo is winning more playoff games.

Getzlaf's 2 way play gets pretty overstated IMO. He wasnt a PK'er, averaging less than a minute per game in his career and only a couple times being over a minute per game in a season and sub 50% at the dot in his career.

to be a bit facetious, Thornton has better Selke finish between the two and the same average finish as Getzlaf (5,14,19 vs 10,13,13,18)

 

[AvroArrow]

Absolutely shocked that Thornton is losing this poll, lol people really forgot how good prime Joe Thornton was. Imagine that playmaking with Pastrnaks shot, easy Thornton + Pastrnak, Getzlaf wasn't even close to being on the same level as those other guys in their primes.

 

[dirtydanglez]

thornton could never deliver in the playoffs. id go getz and kuch

 

[Regal]

Not really

Thornton's 125 pts in 2006 was with a league average of 3.08 GPG. Getzlaf's 91 pts were in a year with a league average of 2.91, only 5.8% lower. If we adjust Thornton to that scoring level he still has 118 points. Hell, adjusting his assists that year he has 90 assists to Getzlaf's 91 points. Not to mention Thornton also had 114 points in a lower scoring year than Getzlaf's 91. The league average in 2008 when he had 114 was 2.78

In an era of the same league scoring, Thornton has 2 seasons with more assists (96 and 92) than Getzlaf ever had total points.

Using Getzlaf's 2009 season as the base:

Player	Points	League Average	Adjusted Points
Getzlaf	91	2.91	91
Thornton	125	3.08	118
Thornton	114	2.78	119

Getzlaf’s 91 points wasn’t his best season. It was 13-14 where he was runner up for the Art Ross and Hart with 87 points in 77 games in one of the lowest scoring eras.

It was also an era where the league average scoring didn’t fully encapsulate how low scoring was for top players because PP scoring was lower. For instance, in 06-07, league scoring was 2.87 (not 2.78), but it was still high scoring at the top of the lineup due to PPs. That season saw the average team have 398 PPOs and score 70 PP goals. In 13-14, league average scoring was 2.67, which is already lower, but on top of that, the average team had 269 PPOs and 48 PP goals. The average team scored 17 more goals in 06-07 than 13-14, but 22 more PP goals. So that lower scoring was being taken from the top of the lineup on the PP.

Regardless, just adjusting to league average scoring and for games played, Getzlaf in 13-14 becomes 92 points in 81 games (same as Thornton), and then becomes 104 points in 05-06 scoring levels (3.02). For 06-07, that would become 99 points.

*note, I’m using actual goals scored to determine league scoring levels. Some sites include shootout goals which don’t actually lead to points by players

Not really

Thornton's 125 pts in 2006 was with a league average of 3.08 GPG. Getzlaf's 91 pts were in a year with a league average of 2.91, only 5.8% lower. If we adjust Thornton to that scoring level he still has 118 points. Hell, adjusting his assists that year he has 90 assists to Getzlaf's 91 points. Not to mention Thornton also had 114 points in a lower scoring year than Getzlaf's 91. The league average in 2008 when he had 114 was 2.78

In an era of the same league scoring, Thornton has 2 seasons with more assists (96 and 92) than Getzlaf ever had total points.

Using Getzlaf's 2009 season as the base:

Player	Points	League Average	Adjusted Points
Getzlaf	91	2.91	91
Thornton	125	3.08	118
Thornton	114	2.78	119

Getzlaf’s 91 points wasn’t his best season. It was 13-14 where he was runner up for the Art Ross and Hart with 87 points in 77 games in one of the lowest scoring eras.

It was also an era where the league average scoring didn’t fully encapsulate how low scoring was for top players because PP scoring was lower. For instance, in 06-07, league scoring was 2.87 (not 2.78), but it was still high scoring at the top of the lineup due to PPs. That season saw the average team have 398 PPOs and score 70 PP goals. In 13-14, league average scoring was 2.67, which is already lower, but on top of that, the average team had 269 PPOs and 48 PP goals. The average team scored 17 more goals in 06-07 than 13-14, but 22 more PP goals. So that lower scoring was being taken from the top of the lineup on the PP. This is why, despite league average scoring going down from 05-06, the scoring leaders look fairly similar.

Regardless, just adjusting to league average scoring and for games played, Getzlaf in 13-14 becomes 92 points in 81 games (same as Thornton), and then becomes 104 points in 05-06 scoring levels (3.02). For 06-07, that would become 99 points. If we adjust further for how the PP imbalance affected top scorers, he’d have more as well.

*note, I’m using actual goals scored to determine league scoring levels. Some sites include shootout goals which

I’m sorry, but what? I think you need to expand on what you mean here a little better. From what I can tell, they both played in the league the same seasons except for the early part of Joe’s career, which was played in one of the lowest scoring eras in league history.

See above. Their careers largely overlapped, but Thornton’s peak was in a high scoring era right out of the full season lockout, while Getzlaf’s was in a low scoring era in the mid-2010s.

 

[Regal]

Getzlaf's 2 way play gets pretty overstated IMO. He wasnt a PK'er, averaging less than a minute per game in his career and only a couple times being over a minute per game in a season and sub 50% at the dot in his career.

to be a bit facetious, Thornton has better Selke finish between the two and the same average finish as Getzlaf (5,14,19 vs 10,13,13,18)

I think Getzlaf’s defense can be overstated as well, but his peak offense and defense coincided more than Thornton, who became better defensively in his 30s.

 

[Sky04]

Getzlaf's 2 way play gets pretty overstated IMO. He wasnt a PK'er, averaging less than a minute per game in his career and only a couple times being over a minute per game in a season and sub 50% at the dot in his career.

to be a bit facetious, Thornton has better Selke finish between the two and the same average finish as Getzlaf (5,14,19 vs 10,13,13,18)

Who cares about regular season? Getzlaf had multiple dominant playoff series where he took over games and lead his team deep, he lead his team in scoring on every single run they went on. Thornton even the backs of others could not perform, there were runs were he was 3rd or 4th in team scoring despite the most talented guy on that roster, if he had performed to his talent level his teams wouldn't have the underachieving legacy they do.

It's not like Getzlaf and Thorntons games were too different, they were pass first big centers but Getzlaf was able to elevate his goal scoring in the playoffs as well as his physical game while Thornton stayed that pass first guy who was afraid to shoot. His gpg in the playoffs is pretty pathetic

 

[Mrb1p]

Thornton is the best player here and Pasta is probably 3rd. Pretty easy.

 

[abo9]

Kinda surprised people are taking Getzlaf and Kucherov over Thornton and Pasta.

Kucherov peak season 128 pts
Pasta peak season 112 pts.

Getzlaf peak season 91 pts.
Thornton peak season 125 pts.

Kucherov has played with top tier offensive talent. Pasta never has.

It's close, and there's space for debate. But this way of looking at it is way too simplified.

Thornton has been a complete disappointment in the playoffs, his whole career. I'm not saying this lightly, as I understand that team success =/= individual success. I would not say this about McDavid or Draisaitl for example: Both are extremely effective and productive in the playoffs.

But Thornton? Seems like a great guy, was one of the best players of his generation, but his play just didn't seem to translate into the playoffs, when it mattered.

Despite 500 less regular season career points and 62 less playoff games, Getzlaf is only trailing Thornton by 14 playoff points...

Translate as well in terms of pace. Between 2007-08 to 2017-18, Getzlaf paced for 1 ppg in the RS, and 0.96 ppg in the playoffs.

Between 1997-98 to 2015-16, Thornton paced for 1.01 ppg in the RS.. can you guess the playoff dip? 0.81 ppg.


Idk why that was, but Thornton wasn't the same player when the playoffs were on. And that counts for something.


*** Also to say that Pasta never played with top tier offensive talent... Marchand doesnt count? Also, Bergeron might not have been the most offensively productive forward, but he was 100% a top tier talent. Pasta played with some terrific players.

 

[Gurglesons]

There’s a lot more to it than just career highs. League scoring makes the gap between Thornton and Getzlaf look bigger than it was. Getzlaf finished 2nd in league scoring in his best year. Thornton was still the better regular season player, but he was never able to perform in the playoffs like his regular seasons, while Getzlaf’s numbers are much better there.

Kucherov also has the playoff advantage over Pasta. Plus his 18-19 season was lower scoring than last year, and this year he has a considerable advantage as well. Bergeron and Marchand were great linemates. Regular season is closer here but still Kucherov. And playoffs is Kucherov by a larger gap.

Thornton and Pasta probably work better as a duo, and if it’s the regular season, probably a better combo overall. Taking two of them to play either together or on separate lines in the playoffs though, and it’s pretty hard not to take Getzlaf and Kucherov

I’m someone that thinks Getzlaf is a better player than Bergeron.

Getzlaf and Thornton aren’t even in the same orbit IMO.

 

[Toby91ca]

See above. Their careers largely overlapped, but Thornton’s peak was in a high scoring era right out of the full season lockout, while Getzlaf’s was in a low scoring era in the mid-2010s.

Huh? I still don’t get the point, you are trying to say Thornton’s best season came in a higher scoring year than Getzlaf’s best season? So, what’s that mean? You are pretending Thornton’s scoring vs Getzlaf scoring isn’t as different as it appears due to eras, but they played during the same years except some years for Thornton when scoring was lower. I just don’t get what you are trying to say. Even if you want to isolate on a single year, 125pts when league scoring was 3.08 per game is a lot better than 91pts when league scoring was 2.91 per game.

 

[Regal]

Huh? I still don’t get the point, you are trying to say Thornton’s best season came in a higher scoring year than Getzlaf’s best season? So, what’s that mean? You are pretending Thornton’s scoring vs Getzlaf scoring isn’t as different as it appears due to eras, but they played during the same years except some years for Thornton when scoring was lower. I just don’t get what you are trying to say. Even if you want to isolate on a single year, 125pts when league scoring was 3.08 per game is a lot better than 91pts when league scoring was 2.91 per game.

I mean it would help if you read it but your response suggests you didn’t. We were talking about single season because that’s what that poster used. And as I wrote, 13-14 was Getzlaf’s best year not 08-09, and yes, 13-14 was in a different era of scoring than 05-06. It doesn’t close the gap, but the gap isn’t as large as the poster was making it out to be by only looking at career highs.

 

[Toby91ca]

I mean it would help if you read it but your response suggests you didn’t. We were talking about single season because that’s what that poster used. And as I wrote, 13-14 was Getzlaf’s best year not 08-09, and yes, 13-14 was in a different era of scoring than 05-06. It doesn’t close the gap, but the gap isn’t as large as the poster was making it out to be by only looking at career highs.

No I get it, it just doesn’t make a lot of sense. The gap is high, period. Firstly, it is a bit weird to look at one players best season and suggest he doesn’t have that much of a gap over the other players best season because the scoring was higher in one of those years…doesn’t make sense when both guys were playing that year and secondly, suggesting the gap between 125pts in 2006 and 87pts in 2014 isn’t as big as it looks…perhaps is technically accurate but not at all genuine, the gap is huge regardless. It’s like saying Gretzky’s 200pts in the 80s isn’t as significant a difference compared to someone’s 60pts today…technically I guess not, but yeah, the difference is significant.

The concept here wasn’t one of technical accuracy, it was meant to show the players were actually close and they are not

 

[Jorma Heart]

Pasta would be +70 goal scorer with prime Jumbo!

 

[Sky04]

Pasta would be +70 goal scorer with prime Jumbo!

And then get knocked out in the 2nd round while he forgets how to play hockey in the playoffs.

Kinda surprised people are taking Getzlaf and Kucherov over Thornton and Pasta.

Kucherov peak season 128 pts
Pasta peak season 112 pts.

Getzlaf peak season 91 pts.
Thornton peak season 125 pts.

Kucherov has played with top tier offensive talent. Pasta never has.

Marchand was the highest scoring LW between 16'-21'. Derp de derp, you're probably confused because Pasta doesn't elevate anyone around him.

 

[Gliff]

Getzlaf was a shutdown two way C. Thornton never had the two way game.

Getzlaf is the most underrated player of his generation.

Not sure if he is the most underated player, but he might be the most underated 2-way guy. It's crazy that he only had 1 top 10 selke finish.

And look, I respect Jumbo, but 08-09 playoffs was prime Jumbo and Prime Getzlaf. Getzlaf owned Jumbo. Played 24 minutes a night and upset the Presidents trophy winners. The Ducks had no business winning that series. Getzlaf basically put the Ducks on his back heads up vs Jumbo.

I take Getzlaf every time if I want to win a cup.

 

[The Macho King]

Thornton is the best player here and Pasta is probably 3rd. Pretty easy.

Number one bullshit.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

I'd have enjoyed Savard with Pastrnak, but Thornton would do very well. Dynamic.

I voted hastily Thornton and Pastrnak because, wow, that duo would be lethal on paper.

But Thornton is too much of a playoff disappointment. And regardless of how I torture the data, he was just underwhelming. His best playoff was probably at 36, far away from his peak. At his peak he was able to touch 100 pts in the regular season, but barely ppg in his best (short) runs in the playoffs.

A guy like Getzlaf didn't have the same regular season success, but had 4 playoff runs over a ppg, while being dominant.

And Kuch > Pastrnak obviously, although Pastrnak is a beast himself.

I tried to put the blame on Thornton's teammates, but Pavelski, Marleau in particular, performed as well in the RS as in the playoffs, points-wise. Not sure what it was, but Thornton really didn't cut it as a playoff performer.

Long winded answer.... but give me Kucherov and Getzlaf

Is it truly so obvious Kucherov is > Pastrnak?

Pastrnak on an island at this point, while Kucherov is surrounded by elite players offensively.

 

[Sky04]

I'd have enjoyed Savard with Pastrnak, but Thornton would do very well. Dynamic.



Is it truly so obvious Kucherov is > Pastrnak?

Pastrnak on an island at this point, while Kucherov is surrounded by elite players offensively.

Why is Kucherov outscoring said elite players by a bigger gap than Pasta is outscoring his terrible linemates?

Pastrnak's best season would be like Kucherovs 3rd after this year.

Weird, didn't the Bruins set some sort of record or something recently? We going to pretend like he plays on a bad team?