TSN: Garrioch: Boucher going nowhere

[Langdon Alger]

It is a coaching carousel but it's not like each firing was a bad decision.

No former coach of ours has been a head coach since this carousel started. They all SHOULD have been fired, and when Boucher is let go he won't get a head coaching gig for a long time.

I question our ability to hire another coach because Dorion and Melnyk seem quite incompetent, but we should hire a reputable coach for once.

Who would you hire?

 

[GuyBoucherEvilGenius]

I honestly don't see the merits behind being pro Boucher. After last season I would have agreed with you fully. Boucher helped the team outperform in both the regular season and the playoffs and his success in his first season in Tampa was worth noting as well. There was merit behind his capabilities as a coach as he demonstrated his ability to attain success. But after this season I don't think there is an ability to look past his faults. Certainly there were conditions in both Tampa and Ottawa that influenced the results but there appears to be something more there than conditions that are purely circumstantial. I don't think you can look at his performance in Tampa and his performance in Ottawa and not derive some meaningful patterns. Boucher was the constant in both situations and the results are very similar. It certainly brings up a lot of questions as to why the results are so similar and what role Boucher played. The Senators looked horrible on all metrics this season and there were not enough changes to the roster or other conditions to explain away such a big swing in performance. The biggest issue is that Boucher received a vote of confidence in December and didn't make any improvements. He didn't change his tactics and didn't make necessary adjustments. Boucher was also fired from his team in the Swiss league, SC Bern, prior to returning to the NHL. The evidence suggests that he is a short lived coach. This article summarizes many of the conflicts that Tampa fans found Why Guy Boucher Needed to Be Fired (And Why It Should Have Happened Sooner)

It seems like he has a system that he is really inflexible with. He lives and dies by his system and is unwilling to change it. His system appears to get him success but it doesn't appear to be sustainable. It is also really boring and even players around the league are critical of it Hockey world reacts to Flyers, Lightning tactics

His system isn't even that new. In many ways it is basically just a copy of the neutral zone trap that the Devils used to play. It is also the most boring style that fans hate and players hate playing. The '95 Devils, 20 Years Later: How a Team and Its Infamous Trap Changed the NHL

I don't see how the team performs better next year if Boucher was to stick around and why there should be confidence in him moving forward. If he somehow didn't get fired this offseason and sucked next year and then got fired would you still think he is a good coach and the Sens were making a mistake?

As for the Sutter and physicality comment, we should definitely want the team to be more physical. Physicality plays a huge role in the NHL and most importantly in the playoffs. The league isn't really trending away from physicality as it is trending to be more skilled. This is a misinterpretation of some fans, they think physicality is less useful in today's league but they just miss the point. It is as useful as it has ever been. Teams can't sacrifice skill and depth for pure physicality, but there is huge value in having skilled players that are also physical. The Bruins and the Blue Jackets are both gritty physical teams and their physical players are fairly skilled. Anaheim lost to San Jose which is also a big and physical team. Vegas also has skilled and physical players.

Sutter would be a good coach for the Sens because he is a proven cup winner and well respected across the league. The Sens need to have a coach that gets them motivated to compete hard night in night out. A coach that can get them playing with emotion and passion. Boucher takes the emotion out of the game and out of the players.

We disagree completely on Boucher and neither of us are going to change our minds, so I won't continue to clog up the forum with more back and forth over it. We've both made our points.

I think the people who want Sutter will be very disappointed if he ever comes here. He is the definition of an old school coach who wants to dump and chase and play a physical heavy game despite the league transitioning more and more to a possession game with speed and skill. He's known to be a grinding personality that demands maximum effort and burns out quickly with his rigid style. There were stories about the Kings players locking him out of the locker room after a game as a result of being so fed up with him - and that's after winning two Cups with lots of those players. For the people who want to see more offense and more creativity, you're not going to get that with Sutter. One reason he was fired was because the Kings offense was seen as archaic and he refused to play a more wide-open style. He's also extremely hard on young players and prefers his veterans.

These are all similar to the types of complaints we've seen regarding Boucher. Stubborn, burnout, too defensive oriented, too loyal to vets, refusal to adapt, etc.

The league is definitely less physical than it has ever been. Yeah the hitting and intensity gets cranked up in the playoffs, but it's nothing like it used to be. There are so many more penalties being called in the playoffs than there used to be. Blind side hits, head shots, and fighting are being legislated out. You can't get away with the Clutching, grabbing, slashing, or interfering that you used to be able to. You can barely touch guys standing in front of the net without being called for a penalty nowadays.

The two teams that exemplify a heavy physical game the most over the last few years are the Ducks and Kings. They were both just swept by teams with more speed and more skill. Vegas is a speed team. The Kings tried to run them through the boards and beat them up but could not possess the puck or score. Same thing with the Ducks vs the Sharks. The Kings and Ducks used to get their cycle game going and beat the bag out of you, wear you down with so much possession. Now they spend so much time chasing the faster teams that they struggle to maintain enough zone time to manufacture goals.

The Bruins have shifted away from a physical heavy defensive game under Cassidy. They've opened up the offense much more and injected more youth/skill into the lineup since moving on from Julien. Columbus is not really being carried by a big heavy bunch of guys either. For their best players, they have new age mobile defenseman like Werenski and Jones, and they've got smaller speedsters like Panarin and Atkinson really driving their offense. Guys like Dubinsky, Foligno, Jenner who have been seen as harder more physical/heavier two way types struggle to keep up and don't have the impact they once did. They've essentially become 30 point players in the regular season.

I mean, have you even really noticed a guy like Corey Perry or Wayne Simmonds this post season? They're borderline invisible. The effect they have on the game has been minimized greatly with all the speed and skill out there nowadays.

The one team that is still a heavy team having success is Winnipeg. They're gigantic up front and on the blue line, and they play a very physically intimidating game, but almost all of their big guys can skate. Laine Scheifele and Wheeler can fly. Guys like Myers and Trouba move pretty well for big guys.

 

[JD1]

I question our ability to hire another coach because Dorion and Melnyk seem quite incompetent, but we should hire a reputable coach for once.

I don't think there is a mould that guarantees success. We've taken different approaches

Clouston - hire a high profile guy from junior into the org and season him at the AHL level
McLean - hire a high profile assistant from a successful program
Boucher - hire a guy with previous NHL head coaching experience and a bit of a track record
Cameron - hired from within, our assistant promoted

what we haven't hired lately is the grizzled NHL vet. Murray was the late time we did that. But that doesn't guarantee anything either. Boudreau hasn'twin a playoff series in Minnesota. McLellan missed in Edmonton after two years.

I'm not necessarily arguing pro Boucher here....just saying that we've tried different things and the things we've tried are all pretty normal. I think all those guys deserved their shot other than Cameron

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The team gets an F and the coach gets an F... lowest player mark a D, and the GM did not get an F.. Too generous on several marks imo.
There should be more Ds at least

 

[Liver King]

I don't think there is a mould that guarantees success. We've taken different approaches

Clouston - hire a high profile guy from junior into the org and season him at the AHL level
McLean - hire a high profile assistant from a successful program
Boucher - hire a guy with previous NHL head coaching experience and a bit of a track record
Cameron - hired from within, our assistant promoted

what we haven't hired lately is the grizzled NHL vet. Murray was the late time we did that. But that doesn't guarantee anything either. Boudreau hasn'twin a playoff series in Minnesota. McLellan missed in Edmonton after two years.

I'm not necessarily arguing pro Boucher here....just saying that we've tried different things and the things we've tried are all pretty normal. I think all those guys deserved their shot other than Cameron

We have actually taken the exact same approach to every coach

No NHL head coaching experience, or very little NHL head coaching experience.

No long term track record of success.

Cheap.

Add Hartsburg and Paddock.

Step 1) get a coach with a good amount of NHL head coaching experience (5+years) and success doing It. It isn't that f***ing hard of a concept.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

Does HF sens not have an "around the league playoffs" thread right now?

 

[Liver King]

Who would you hire?

Based on this summer one of Sutter AV or Trotz

I don't know who else is or will likely become available

 

[JD1]

We have actually taken the exact same approach to every coach

No NHL head coaching experience, or very little NHL head coaching experience.

No long term track record of success.

Cheap.

Add Hartsburg and Paddock.

Step 1) get a coach with a good amount of NHL head coaching experience (5+years) and success doing It. It isn't that ****ing hard of a concept.

a guy with a bunch of experience that is available was fired from his last job.

except Peters

 

[Liver King]

a guy with a bunch of experience that is available was fired from his last job.

except Peters

?

And Boucher will be fired from his, to be replaced by a better coach.

If you want an NHL coach who has never been let go he's not available lol

 

[Deku]

The team gets an F and the coach gets an F... lowest player mark a D, and the GM did not get an F.. Too generous on several marks imo.
There should be more Ds at least

I don't know how Smith, Burrows, Claesson, aren't lower, and the goalies should probably get Ds

 

[JD1]

?

And Boucher will be fired from his, to be replaced by a better coach.

If you want an NHL coach who has never been let go he's not available lol

the point that I'm making is there are all kinds of different paths. no path including hiring a ton of experience guarantees success.

 

[Samboni]

If Boucher was going to be fired, it would have happened by now. He's got another 20 games to fix the PK, PP, negative goal differential, offence, defence, etc, etc before they promote Crawford.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

If Boucher was going to be fired, it would have happened by now. He's got another 20 games to fix the PK, PP, negative goal differential, offence, defence, etc, etc before they promote Crawford.

Sad but likely true..... No 2019 first .. No 2019 first .. No 2019 first .. No 2019 first .. No 2019 first .. No 2019 first

 

[Liver King]

the point that I'm making is there are all kinds of different paths. no path including hiring a ton of experience guarantees success.

earth shattering

 

[thinkwild]

Sad but likely true..... No 2019 first .. No 2019 first .. No 2019 first .. No 2019 first .. No 2019 first .. No 2019 first

But we have a true skilled #1C at the same age as our true skilled #1D hopefully both starting healthy and comfortable. If we're gonna lose that first, thats as good a reason to do it as could hope for.

 

[Samboni]

Sad but likely true..... No 2019 first .. No 2019 first .. No 2019 first .. No 2019 first .. No 2019 first .. No 2019 first

I expect the Sens to trade someone (Hoffman?) between the draft and TDL and recoup a 2019 first rounder, albeit it won't be top 15.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I expect the Sens to trade someone (Hoffman?) between the draft and TDL and recoup a 2019 first rounder, albeit it won't be top 15.

Just saying if we give Boucher 20 games and the results do not improve ...the potential is there that we finish outside the playoffs again... how low ,. who knows at this point. Colorado gets the pick. Next year's draft is good if that pick is in the top 10. It will hurt more. I think its the wrong decision to bring Boucher back. He showed us his stripes.

 

[Samboni]

Just saying if we give Boucher 20 games and the results do not improve ...the potential is there that we finish outside the playoffs again... how low ,. who knows at this point. Colorado gets the pick. Next year's draft is good if that pick is in the top 10. It will hurt more. I think its the wrong decision to bring Boucher back. He showed us his stripes.

I agree. IMO, Boucher is a great talker and could sell sand to the Bedouin! Dorion being an inexperienced GM, got taken hook line and sinker. The hairs on the back of my neck went up after Dorion described the 8 hour hiring interview and went on and on like they were sole mates.

IMO, there were a lot of red flags in Boucher's first year that got forgotten when the team went deep into the playoffs. In my view, the deep playoff run can be attributed to "playoff Cinderella magic". Once the fairy dust wore off, the team reverted to being a pumpkin.

Unless there is a miracle, 2019 is going to be another tank. As you say, it's going to hurt without a top 10 pick.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

So, is anyone still hurt right now? As far as I can tell, outside from Stone being a bit under 100%, everyone on the team is reasonably healthy going into the summer. That means we'll hopefully *knocks on wood* have everyone firing on all cylinders in September.

As long as we aren't trading any of our core over the summer or making drastic moves, you'd have to think we're going to look pretty decent for the first part of next season.

 

[BonkTastic]

So, is anyone still hurt right now? As far as I can tell, outside from Stone being a bit under 100%, everyone on the team is reasonably healthy going into the summer.

Gaborik had hip surgery a few weeks ago, and at his age there's no telling how he'll recover from that.

Ryan is "healthy", but his hand probably looks like a can of uncooked Chef Boyardee at the best of times these days, so who knows what "healthy" is for him anymore.

Wideman, who knows how he'll look in the fall. Completely torn hamstring, he might be fine, but might not be. That's a wait-and-see thing as far as I'm concerned. No way to know until we see him in semi-serious game action again.

Also, obviously, MacArthur seems to be LTIRetired, but I suppose needs to be mentioned for the sake of completion.

 

[Ray Kinsella]

I agree. IMO, Boucher is a great talker and could sell sand to the Bedouin! Dorion being an inexperienced GM, got taken hook line and sinker. The hairs on the back of my neck went up after Dorion described the 8 hour hiring interview and went on and on like they were sole mates.

IMO, there were a lot of red flags in Boucher's first year that got forgotten when the team went deep into the playoffs. In my view, the deep playoff run can be attributed to "playoff Cinderella magic". Once the fairy dust wore off, the team reverted to being a pumpkin.

Unless there is a miracle, 2019 is going to be another tank. As you say, it's going to hurt without a top 10 pick.

...an 8 hour interview?

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Gaborik had hip surgery a few weeks ago, and at his age there's no telling how he'll recover from that.

Ryan is "healthy", but his hand probably looks like a can of uncooked Chef Boyardee at the best of times these days, so who knows what "healthy" is for him anymore.

Wideman, who knows how he'll look in the fall. Completely torn hamstring, he might be fine, but might not be. That's a wait-and-see thing as far as I'm concerned. No way to know until we see him in semi-serious game action again.

Also, obviously, MacArthur seems to be LTIRetired, but I suppose needs to be mentioned for the sake of completion.

So pretty much the only one is Wideman. I doubt Gaborik is in the teams plans, and if he is, it's as a minor role.

 

[BonkTastic]

So pretty much the only one is Wideman. I doubt Gaborik is in the teams plans, and if he is, it's as a minor role.

Who knows what the team's plans are with Gaborik.

He might be "injured" for the first buyout window and therefore ineligible to be bought out, assuming that's even our plans for him. We may have traded for him because we legitimately liked what he has to bring in a bottom-6 role, or we may have traded for him purely to save a very small amount of $, or some combination of the two... that trade made no sense to me from day one, so I'm probably the wrong person to ask.

In any case, I was just listing everyone who qualifies under "injured" at the NHL level within the org, yeah.

 

[slamigo]

I thought Gaborik just had a herniated disc? That's not a career ending injury. He's supposed to be good-to-go in June. Lots of time to get ready for camp.

 

[BonkTastic]

I thought Gaborik just had a herniated disc? That's not a career ending injury.

When you are 25 years old, it certainly isn't career-threatening. Agreed.

At 36 years old, that's a different story altogether. I'd generally take it on a case-by-case basis for guys that age.