Post-Game Talk: |Game #LII | Loss | The one where the Jerks jerked us around

[Darren McCord]

See, I kinda do think the playoffs do stem down to luck. Was it the "right build" that HBK went on that insane run in 2016, or did they just get super lucky due to a Malkin injury and an insanely hot line?

I mean you had malkin with Kunitz and rust as line two, so I would argue yes. that team was very deep. It was built to support three scoring lines.

Having a sheary type player with Sid allowed you to shift rust and kessel down. If you had a guy that got like sheary on line one now, you could slide rust down and make stronger 3 lines.

You also had hagelin, Kunitz, rust and horny all as tenacious forcheckers in the top 9.

this team has rust. A kunitz type player is sorely missed

 

[Angrrus]

It's curious how ever since Crosby and Malkin have both been persent in the lineup - Sully started speaking about sloppiness and execution on the regular basis after games.

I guess it's a great testament to their famous leadership and positive influence they have on their teammates.

 

[orby]

It's curious how ever since Crosby and Malkin have both been persent in the lineup - Sully started speaking about sloppiness and execution on the regular basis after games.

I guess it's a great testament to their famous leadership and positive influence they have on their teammates.

Are you implying that Crosby and Malkin don't have a positive influence on their teammates? I've heard people argue that about Malkin, and while I don't agree, I get it...but Crosby? Seriously?

 

[Angrrus]

Jarry saved this from being a blow out. The systemic defense and play form earlier this year is just gone. I don't understand why we can't have a full roster and play Sullivan's system effectively. Why can this system only work with a depleted roster?

Just compare who was absent from the lineup then and who is in it now.

 

[Angrrus]

Are you implying that Crosby and Malkin don't have a positive influence on their teammates? I've heard people argue that about Malkin, and while I don't agree, I get it...but Crosby? Seriously?

You don't need me to imply anything. Just check the facts and let them speak for themselves.

 

[Flying Dego]

It's curious how ever since Crosby and Malkin have both been persent in the lineup - Sully started speaking about sloppiness and execution on the regular basis after games.

I guess it's a great testament to their famous leadership and positive influence they have on their teammates.

Here's where the fanbase will split on opinions...sorry but I'll stick with my two generational players over a head coach.

Geno and Sid do not control lineup decisions. They do not control defensive schemes or the system. So when a group of players go ice cold you need to look up.

Can Sid and Geno play sloppy/lazy hockey? Absolutely. Should they get the brunt of the blame? No, the coach is responsible. He's paid millions to effectively adapt and coach to his players strengths.

If he no longer can do his job effectively you look elsewhere. I will never think 'let's trade our players and keep the coach' unless that coach was immaculate....all coaches expire, the good and bad ones.

Or we can buy the theory when Geno gets in the lineup he tells the Dman 'hey guys make bad decisions to pinch and everyone forget your defensive assignments. It'll be hilarious'

 

[Icarium]

Is it worth torpedoing your best line in the hopes of reviving others?

When your best line is rarely winning you games unless it scores on the PP and you have enough of a lead in the standing to make experiments for a game or two at least - why not? Commentators talk of GCR as if they are close in quality to the best lines in the league, then one looks at the plus/minus (yes, I know, a very flawed stat but still) and you see that none of the three are even among the top 50 forwards - and that's despite Jarry standing on his head so often. A lot of this has to do with Letang and Dumo forgetting how to play defense over the last month or so but still. If you don't count empty net goals this line probably is little better than even, we are going nowhere unless this improves. Maybe it will improve without any line juggling but again, what's the worst that could happen if you move Rust or Jake to L2 for a game or two? Don't forget that the team was doing quite well when it was playing without Rust and Geno, why is it suddenly an inevitability that if Jake and Sid play without Rust they would be no good? If anything, Guentzel was actually scoring more goals when Rust was out, IIRC.

I am not one who pays close attention to how lines match but looking at our home record, I suspect Sully isn't trying that hard to escape matchups against the top defensive lines/pairings of other teams when he has the last change which exacerbates the problem.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Or we can buy the theory when Geno gets in the lineup he tells the Dman 'hey guys make bad decisions to pinch and everyone forget your defensive assignments. It'll be hilarious'

Only one reasonable explanation remains.

Evgeni Malkin is a Capitals sleeper agent with emerging telepathic abilities.
It checks all the boxes:

- Team forgetting how to play with sound positioning and 5v5
- Players like Letang making critical giveaways he wasn't making all year
- ERod going ice cold (Malkin let him score yesterday to allay suspicion)
- The foggy focus level to start games and periods
- Players having no recollection of practice drills and video sessions
- Sullivan accepting the falling standards and not making necessary adjustments
- Reirden's "absent-minded" nature of how he got injured
- Hextall not feeling compelled to make important moves

Malkin is disrupting the team's thought processes. God help us when he plays his trump card near the deadline.

 

[orby]

You don't need me to imply anything. Just check the facts and let them speak for themselves.

You're either a troll or just not a reasonable person. Anyone who looks at Crosby and Malkin's respective careers and thinks "yeah, these guys make the team worse when they're in the lineup" is out to lunch - especially as regards Crosby. I can't think of a more prime example of a player who makes other guys play better.

 

[Pens x]

The time to experiment was against the crap teams we played in January. Now, Sully won’t try **** against playoff squads. January should have been tryouts for the fourth line, for example.

When I suggested this back then, I was ridiculed for suggesting we make any changes, even minor; during a win streak (against crap teams).

I was also laughed at for suggesting Sully is a terrible coach when the team is relatively healthy. And again, I hope half of our forwards are injured come playoff time, because that’s the only chance we have.

 

[Pens x]

Hextall not feeling compelled to make important moves

 

[The Old Master]

Here's where the fanbase will split on opinions...sorry but I'll stick with my two generational players over a head coach.

Geno and Sid do not control lineup decisions. They do not control defensive schemes or the system. So when a group of players go ice cold you need to look up.

Can Sid and Geno play sloppy/lazy hockey? Absolutely. Should they get the brunt of the blame? No, the coach is responsible. He's paid millions to effectively adapt and coach to his players strengths.

If he no longer can do his job effectively you look elsewhere. I will never think 'let's trade our players and keep the coach' unless that coach was immaculate....all coaches expire, the good and bad ones.

Or we can buy the theory when Geno gets in the lineup he tells the Dman 'hey guys make bad decisions to pinch and everyone forget your defensive assignments. It'll be hilarious'

while i agree with this, when players are not doing the very basic defensive plays (the ones they teach peewees) the ones that have been drilled into them since they were 9. never mind the schemes nhl use. you need to ask why?

 

[Andy99]

Since we’re all doom and gloom….

Looking at the Penguins performance against playoff teams

 

[Crosbyfan]

On a positive note, we were getting low on our quota of undeserved wins, and needed to save the very few we have left for playoffs.

 

[SEALBound]

Since we’re all doom and gloom….

Looking at the Penguins performance against playoff teams

It's a relevant discussion to be having. It's great when we go on 9 or 10 game win streaks and beat up on lower seed teams but we are nearly a night and day team against the playoff teams. We just got thrashed by Toronto. We played Carolina pretty well and it was a winnable game.

But I think both games really exposed the belly of the beast, so to speak. Both games really highlighted just how sloppy we really are and what a joke our system is. These last two games look like a rec league team who plays 1x a week with each other, not a professional team who skates, plays, and practices 6-7x a week. The chemistry is just not there. There's little cohesion. Every now and then, they rev up and make it work, but the problem is, it's extremely inconsistent and not sustainable. I would gladly give up those pretty plays for consistent structured play. We don't have the assets to run and gun the way we have been. Sid and Geno are 34 and 35, not 24/25. They MUST change their approach.

This team rocked the structured play approach when Sid and Geno were out. They continued it pretty well once Sid got back. Now, with Geno back and both him and Sid back up to speed, the systematic approach has gone by the wayside. I just cannot overemphasize what a red flag this is and what it means for our playoff chances. We've seen "this" team before - 2018-2021. Three brutal 1st round losses. It's not a matter of talent or line combos or 5v5 adv stats...it's a matter of structure and discipline. We know it exists...we've seen it. And we all know what makes it go away.

One of two things needs to happen - Sullivan needs to brute force jam the system back into place, possibly creating major riffs between him, Sid, Geno, and Letang...or Sid, Geno, and/or Letang themselves need to recognize the downward trend and start speaking up about it while recommitting to structured play.

Sullivan needs to pull a Byslma in the tapes session. He needs to highlight Malkin's play in the last 2-3 min of the game yesterday. Replay over and over the absolute shit passing and puck management. Nice pass to Erod be damned. It's actually ERod nailing that shot and that extremely low percentage play working that will make Malkin continue to do it. Except it will not work far more than it will work, to the absolute detriment of the powerplay and general 5v5 play.

 

[ronduguayshair]

It's a relevant discussion to be having. It's great when we go on 9 or 10 game win streaks and beat up on lower seed teams but we are nearly a night and day team against the playoff teams. We just got thrashed by Toronto. We played Carolina pretty well and it was a winnable game.

But I think both games really exposed the belly of the beast, so to speak. Both games really highlighted just how sloppy we really are and what a joke our system is. These last two games look like a rec league team who plays 1x a week with each other, not a professional team who skates, plays, and practices 6-7x a week. The chemistry is just not there. There's little cohesion. Every now and then, they rev up and make it work, but the problem is, it's extremely inconsistent and not sustainable. I would gladly give up those pretty plays for consistent structured play. We don't have the assets to run and gun the way we have been. Sid and Geno are 34 and 35, not 24/25. They MUST change their approach.

This team rocked the structured play approach when Sid and Geno were out. They continued it pretty well once Sid got back. Now, with Geno back and both him and Sid back up to speed, the systematic approach has gone by the wayside. I just cannot overemphasize what a red flag this is and what it means for our playoff chances. We've seen "this" team before - 2018-2021. Three brutal 1st round losses. It's not a matter of talent or line combos or 5v5 adv stats...it's a matter of structure and discipline. We know it exists...we've seen it. And we all know what makes it go away.

One of two things needs to happen - Sullivan needs to brute force jam the system back into place, possibly creating major riffs between him, Sid, Geno, and Letang...or Sid, Geno, and/or Letang themselves need to recognize the downward trend and start speaking up about it while recommitting to structured play.

Sullivan needs to pull a Byslma in the tapes session. He needs to highlight Malkin's play in the last 2-3 min of the game yesterday. Replay over and over the absolute shit passing and puck management. Nice pass to Erod be damned. It's actually ERod nailing that shot and that extremely low percentage play working that will make Malkin continue to do it. Except it will not work far more than it will work, to the absolute detriment of the powerplay and general 5v5 play.

They aren't practicing x6 a week this season because of covid.

Make no excuse (and I don't think you are) Sullivan's system is not to 100% pinch. It is left up to the players and some can't handle the responsibility. They are trying to pile up points for new contracts.

 

[SEALBound]

They aren't practicing x6 a week this season because of covid.

Make no excuse (and I don't think you are) Sullivan's system is not to 100% pinch. It is left up to the players and some can't handle the responsibility. They are trying to pile up points for new contracts.

Who is trying to pile up points for a new contract?

 

[Ugene Magic]

It's a relevant discussion to be having. It's great when we go on 9 or 10 game win streaks and beat up on lower seed teams but we are nearly a night and day team against the playoff teams. We just got thrashed by Toronto. We played Carolina pretty well and it was a winnable game.

But I think both games really exposed the belly of the beast, so to speak. Both games really highlighted just how sloppy we really are and what a joke our system is. These last two games look like a rec league team who plays 1x a week with each other, not a professional team who skates, plays, and practices 6-7x a week. The chemistry is just not there. There's little cohesion. Every now and then, they rev up and make it work, but the problem is, it's extremely inconsistent and not sustainable. I would gladly give up those pretty plays for consistent structured play. We don't have the assets to run and gun the way we have been. Sid and Geno are 34 and 35, not 24/25. They MUST change their approach.

This team rocked the structured play approach when Sid and Geno were out. They continued it pretty well once Sid got back. Now, with Geno back and both him and Sid back up to speed, the systematic approach has gone by the wayside. I just cannot overemphasize what a red flag this is and what it means for our playoff chances. We've seen "this" team before - 2018-2021. Three brutal 1st round losses. It's not a matter of talent or line combos or 5v5 adv stats...it's a matter of structure and discipline. We know it exists...we've seen it. And we all know what makes it go away.

One of two things needs to happen - Sullivan needs to brute force jam the system back into place, possibly creating major riffs between him, Sid, Geno, and Letang...or Sid, Geno, and/or Letang themselves need to recognize the downward trend and start speaking up about it while recommitting to structured play.

Sullivan needs to pull a Byslma in the tapes session. He needs to highlight Malkin's play in the last 2-3 min of the game yesterday. Replay over and over the absolute shit passing and puck management. Nice pass to Erod be damned. It's actually ERod nailing that shot and that extremely low percentage play working that will make Malkin continue to do it. Except it will not work far more than it will work, to the absolute detriment of the powerplay and general 5v5 play.

Getting back to fundamentals not quite like back to training camp but back to training camp in a sense to get back to status quo and weed out who's doing what and address it. The team is constantly in a mix up transition roster wise, and there are only two standard lines if you take line #1 and #4 into consideration when Blueger gets back.

Fundamentals being puck control, breakouts, defensive awareness.

Puck control is pretty bad, taking and receiving passes. Way too many lost pucks trying to make a pass in the worst possible places while not being a 50/50 puck battle. Tape to tape passes, having them just wander off your stick and then at the opposite side of a tape to tape pass being fumbled or having it hit their stick and it banks off not taking it cleanly.

These are guys who shouldn't be having this issue and it's becoming a common occurrence and it's in that high offensive zone area feeding other teams transitions. When you are a press team with the D-men, very catastrophic.

 

[ronduguayshair]

Who is trying to pile up points for a new contract?

Letang. Malkin has always chased points but that's his job.

 

[Flying Dego]

while i agree with this, when players are not doing the very basic defensive plays (the ones they teach peewees) the ones that have been drilled into them since they were 9. never mind the schemes nhl use. you need to ask why?

I hear you...but in those cases it typically ends the coaches tenure if the players tune him out. Literally happens to every coach eventually. If he loses the locker room you're not trading your players, you get a new voice.

Hockey is weird. I think Sully can be a good coach but his loss of control when we are healthy over the last few years is alarming.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Here's where the fanbase will split on opinions...sorry but I'll stick with my two generational players over a head coach.

Geno and Sid do not control lineup decisions. They do not control defensive schemes or the system. So when a group of players go ice cold you need to look up.

Can Sid and Geno play sloppy/lazy hockey? Absolutely. Should they get the brunt of the blame? No, the coach is responsible. He's paid millions to effectively adapt and coach to his players strengths.

If he no longer can do his job effectively you look elsewhere. I will never think 'let's trade our players and keep the coach' unless that coach was immaculate....all coaches expire, the good and bad ones.

Or we can buy the theory when Geno gets in the lineup he tells the Dman 'hey guys make bad decisions to pinch and everyone forget your defensive assignments. It'll be hilarious'

It's also a weird thing to pin on Sid and Geno because it's not like they're the only two players disrupting the system and every other forward is doing exactly what Sullivan wants them to do.

I could see the criticism if that was the case; if the other lines are well oiled machines and the Pens only run around when Sid or Geno is on the ice because they're freewheeling, but I'm not sure how Sid or Geno cause other players to miss assignments or cough up the puck in bad areas?

 

[Zirakzigil]

This thread has passed its best before date. Conversations can move to other threads.