GDT: Game 36 - Anaheim Ducks vs Edmonton Oilers - 5pm PT, BSSC

[Ducks DVM]

Right now no pairing works with fowler really….

Call it whatever you want… over used, wrong line up placement but outside of all of that he’s been pretty bad on his own.

There is also very minimal reasons to keep him past this year, don’t even think the won’t get good trade value arguement works much anymore

Are you blaming him for the goal where the official blocked his pass and Kane shot it in (off Henrique?)after Fowler was picked, the Foegele goal where he dropped his stick when he realized it was broken, still prevented the first shot, then none of the other 3 guys covered the free guy on the other side of the net who took the shot, the Hyman goal where he was exactly where he should have been and Drysdale was the one who allowed the breakaway, or the final Kulak goal where Gibson just didn’t bother to show up?

This isn’t “being an apologist”, this is what actually happened on every goal. You can argue that he should have fought through the pick (wouldn’t happen with no momentum for anyone), should have realized his stick was broken earlier (irrelevant at that distance from the bench), zero culpability on the 3rd one, and could have asked him to try to get out to block the shot (likely screening Gibson in the process, but might have blocked it). One of those is a reasonable argument against his play IMO, and it came already down 6-1.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Are you blaming him for the goal where the official blocked his pass and Kane shot it in (off Henrique?)after Fowler was picked, the Foegele goal where he dropped his stick when he realized it was broken, still prevented the first shot, then none of the other 3 guys covered the free guy on the other side of the net who took the shot, the Hyman goal where he was exactly where he should have been and Drysdale was the one who allowed the breakaway, or the final Kulak goal where Gibson just didn’t bother to show up?

This isn’t “being an apologist”, this is what actually happened on every goal. You can argue that he should have fought through the pick (wouldn’t happen with no momentum for anyone), should have realized his stick was broken earlier (irrelevant at that distance from the bench), zero culpability on the 3rd one, and could have asked him to try to get out to block the shot (likely screening Gibson in the process, but might have blocked it). One of those is a reasonable argument against his play IMO, and it came already down 6-1.

Where did you get any of that from what I said?

I said he hasn’t been very good this year up to his standards, which isn’t some outlandish thought… and that him being played too much and him being played as a #1 when he’s clearly not is certainly not helping him…. But he just hasn’t been very good either on his own.


But continue with your silly rant

 

[Ducks DVM]

Where did you get any of that from what I said?

I said he hasn’t been very good this year up to his standards, which isn’t some outlandish thought… and that him being played too much and him being played as a #1 when he’s clearly not is certainly not helping him…. But he just hasn’t been very good either on his own.


But continue with your silly rant

Highlight the part that’s silly?

It seemed relevant to point that stuff out when you said there’s minimal reason for him to be on the team next year. The sad reality is that there’s not a single defenseman who’s showing themselves to be a better bet than him at top minute time to this point, and I was pointing out that the goals he was on ice for were pretty minimally his fault. The argument that players who can’t do well on the top pairing when they don’t belong there (Fowler, LaCombe) should be off the team, rather than slotted where they belong, is the silly argument IMO. I know you’re been evaluating Fowler as nothing but a trade chip the last 3-4 seasons, but trading him won’t make the team better until there are actually Ducks players that are even as good as him, much less better….and there aren’t.

 

[Deuce22]

Are you blaming him for the goal where the official blocked his pass and Kane shot it in (off Henrique?)after Fowler was picked, the Foegele goal where he dropped his stick when he realized it was broken, still prevented the first shot, then none of the other 3 guys covered the free guy on the other side of the net who took the shot, the Hyman goal where he was exactly where he should have been and Drysdale was the one who allowed the breakaway, or the final Kulak goal where Gibson just didn’t bother to show up?

This isn’t “being an apologist”, this is what actually happened on every goal. You can argue that he should have fought through the pick (wouldn’t happen with no momentum for anyone), should have realized his stick was broken earlier (irrelevant at that distance from the bench), zero culpability on the 3rd one, and could have asked him to try to get out to block the shot (likely screening Gibson in the process, but might have blocked it). One of those is a reasonable argument against his play IMO, and it came already down 6-1.

My point isn’t to assign blame for every goal to some defenseman. It’s that the guy that’s playing huge minutes to supposedly shield the young D from getting caved in gets caved in regularly. In a developmental year I want to see progress from the young D, progress that will only come with ice time. Playing Fowler huge minutes doesn’t make the team better or help win games. What’s the point?

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Fowler on the top pairing is the issue , Fowler playing over 25 min most nights is the problem.

Fowler himself is not the problem, it’s the utilization of Fowler that is the issue.

If we had a 2nd pairing of say Fowler - Gudas, and a pairing above them who can shutdown the opposition, we would not see games like this getting blown out.

Not possessing a #1 shutdown D is going to be problem for the Ducks because there doesn't seem to be one in the system. It might take a couple of seasons to develop our current blueliners so that we might roll three 2nd pairings to handle the load.

Verbeek reset the rebuild in 2021-22, giving up an actual #1 shutdown d who can put Fowler in the most optimal situation for him and the team as the 2nd pairing with any competent stay-at-home D such as Manson, Gudbranson, or Hakanpaa. The Ducks were 3rd in the Pacific when Verbeek took over in 2021-22. Last year was a tank job where the masses blamed the coach. This year with a new coach, added talents, more defensive-minded D, the Ducks' have reduced SA's, GA's, improved the PK (from 31st to 15th), and improved the PP (from 31st to 17th). Yet Ducks seemingly are still stuck at the bottom. Now, the problem is the roster instead of the coach.

Verbeek still has time because he's got his sights on the 2025-26 season to be his playoff run. It might be too soon if this season continues to play out similarly.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Highlight the part that’s silly?

It seemed relevant to point that stuff out when you said there’s minimal reason for him to be on the team next year. The sad reality is that there’s not a single defenseman who’s showing themselves to be a better bet than him at top minute time to this point, and I was pointing out that the goals he was on ice for were pretty minimally his fault. The argument that players who can’t do well on the top pairing when they don’t belong there (Fowler, LaCombe) should be off the team, rather than slotted where they belong, is the silly argument IMO. I know you’re been evaluating Fowler as nothing but a trade chip the last 3-4 seasons, but trading him won’t make the team better until there are actually Ducks players that are even as good as him, much less better….and there aren’t.

His play the last couple years I’ll take my chances with minty lacombe Vaaks zellweger and hinds

I wasn’t even talking about this game it was a pretty general statement…. But if you want to go back and explain how every goal this year that was scored when he was on the ice and how it wasn’t really his fault go for it, I’ll be entertaine

Getting serious butt hurt vibes from you today, hungover?

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

No, we've heard from multiple players how he keeps everyone accountable. That's the exact word they have used.

True they've mentioned the word but what they're talking about (and what PV and Cronin themselves have said) is that he publicly calls guys out at practices in front of the team and that he has frank conversations with them in private. Essentially, he makes them uncomfortable in different ways.

And no, I don't actually wonder much about ice time because, outside of one major example, I don't see ice time being correlated with on ice performance much. Do you? I see a rotation of 4th liners but I don't find that to be obviously linked to "accountability" versus any other lineup decisions a coach might make at the margins.

Taking their word in this case avoids the hard work of figuring out if what they're saying matches what you think of as accountability. If your definition of accountability is guys saying that they're being held accountable, then sure. Cronin nailed it. Otherwise, I don't see much that's obvious.

 

[Ducks DVM]

My point isn’t to assign blame for every goal to some defenseman. It’s that the guy that’s playing huge minutes to supposedly shield the young D from getting caved in gets caved in regularly. In a developmental year I want to see progress from the young D, progress that will only come with ice time. Playing Fowler huge minutes doesn’t make the team better or help win games. What’s the point?

So that the rookies aren’t getting caved in. Verbeek has said repeatedly that this is a developmental year. Winning is (very) secondary to player improvement. This season is about how the kids on defense play next year, and the next after. Everyone screaming for trades to make the team better now just literally aren’t listening to what Verbeek is saying (not saying thats what you’re doing).

I’m not saying Fowler is great, I very clearly say he’s a second pairing guy. I think he and Gudas would be a great second pairing. I think together they’re a bad 1st pairing, and that’s a Verbeek thing. He coulda kept Lindholm, who’s at least still a #2. But he didn’t, for reasons that are well documented so here we are. I just don’t see the point in blaming Fowler for things he didn’t do. Those other players’ mistakes would be magnified if he wasn’t there. We are a bad team.

 

[Ducks DVM]

His play the last couple years I’ll take my chances with minty lacombe Vaaks zellweger and hinds

I wasn’t even talking about this game it was a pretty general statement…. But if you want to go back and explain how every goal this year that was scored when he was on the ice and how it wasn’t really his fault go for it, I’ll be entertaine

Getting serious butt hurt vibes from you today, hungover?

Nope. Just don’t understand the need to scapegoat.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Nope. Just don’t understand the need to scapegoat.

And I don’t understand why we have to blame everyone but fowler for his play

 

[Leonardo87]

So that the rookies aren’t getting caved in. Verbeek has said repeatedly that this is a developmental year. Winning is (very) secondary to player improvement. This season is about how the kids on defense play next year, and the next after. Everyone screaming for trades to make the team better now just literally aren’t listening to what Verbeek is saying (not saying thats what you’re doing).

This is Why I just accepted the fate of this season. Changes aren’t happening, only within with what Cronin has to work with. I just want to see the kids continue to grow and get on the score-sheet more. Playoffs were never on my Mind when the season started. I wanted .500 hockey and sadly that seems to be a tall order now, but we did have serious injuries this year.

It’s a shame with Z, made a great play to get an assist on the 1st Ducks goal, Only for his game to end on a stupid misconduct penalty, but at least he took that a-hole Leon with him, lol.

 

[Deuce22]

So that the rookies aren’t getting caved in. Verbeek has said repeatedly that this is a developmental year. Winning is (very) secondary to player improvement. This season is about how the kids on defense play next year, and the next after. Everyone screaming for trades to make the team better now just literally aren’t listening to what Verbeek is saying (not saying thats what you’re doing).

I’m not saying Fowler is great, I very clearly say he’s a second pairing guy. I think he and Gudas would be a great second pairing. I think together they’re a bad 1st pairing, and that’s a Verbeek thing. He coulda kept Lindholm, who’s at least still a #2. But he didn’t, for reasons that are well documented so here we are. I just don’t see the point in blaming Fowler for things he didn’t do. Those other players’ mistakes would be magnified if he wasn’t there. We are a bad team.

I don’t think we are that far apart here. I want the young D to improve, and see Fowler’s usage as an impediment to that. You like his game more than I do.

 

[Ducks DVM]

And I don’t understand why we have to blame everyone but fowler for his play

See, that was the point of my post. Blame him for the mistakes he makes, of which there are plenty, not for the overall failutes of roster construction . Not reading and actually dispassionately analyzing it was the silly part.

Blame Fowler for his play. Blame everyone else for theirs. Blame Verbeek for making Fowler our best defenseman, and blame Verbeek and Cronin for deciding that developing young players is more important than constructing a functional top pairing. You can blame me for pointing that out, and I will blame people for expecting a player to have a skill set/style/physicality that he’s never had to finally appear as having questionable expectations and criticisms.

 

[Ducks DVM]

I don’t think we are that far apart here. I want the young D to improve, and see Fowler’s usage as an impediment to that. You like his game more than I do.

I agree, but it’s not so much liking his game so much as disliking the rookies At this point in their careers. Just because a guy plays well in limited minutes, sheltered zone starts, and appropriate matchups doesn’t mean they're better than the guy playing twice the minutes, not being sheltered, and getting totally inappropriate minutes.

I think there’s also a tendency to focus/harp on on every mistake and ignore the good/competent play of players one dislikes, and glorify the good plays and ignore/excuse the bad plays of the ones that are liked. Not a lot of even remotely objective assessment goes on around here.

 

[Deuce22]

I agree, but it’s not so much liking his game so much as disliking the rookies At this point in their careers. Just because a guy plays well in limited minutes, sheltered zone starts, and appropriate matchups doesn’t mean they're better than the guy playing twice the minutes, not being sheltered, and getting totally inappropriate minutes.

I think there’s also a tendency to focus/harp on on every mistake and ignore the good/competent play of players one dislikes, and glorify the good plays and ignore/excuse the bad plays of the ones that are liked. Not a lot of even remotely objective assessment goes on around here.

No doubt that agendas or fandom usually trump objective analysis.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

My point isn’t to assign blame for every goal to some defenseman. It’s that the guy that’s playing huge minutes to supposedly shield the young D from getting caved in gets caved in regularly. In a developmental year I want to see progress from the young D, progress that will only come with ice time. Playing Fowler huge minutes doesn’t make the team better or help win games. What’s the point?

I agree with abusing Fowler with too many minutes in a development season. If we're getting blown out anyways, then I don't understand why the constant abuse. Both Brown (PP coach) and Stothers (special asst coach) were here when Fowler was optimized; when Fowler didn't play the PK, he was effective offensively.

The coaching staff needs to start trusting others. Rookie LaCombe earned that trust on the PK and Vaak has shown vast improvement to where he can be a staple on the PK. Either can replace Fowler on the PK, which could keep Fowler fresher by reduced minutes, but reduced hard minutes by not participating on the PK.

There's gotta be that balance of protection and development, but I don't get that with Fowler's overusage. His ATOI on the season is 25:04, but in his last 15 games, Fowler's been averaging around 27 minutes a game. We're 4-11-0 in that span.

 

[dracom]

His play the last couple years I’ll take my chances with minty lacombe Vaaks zellweger and hinds

I wasn’t even talking about this game it was a pretty general statement…. But if you want to go back and explain how every goal this year that was scored when he was on the ice and how it wasn’t really his fault go for it, I’ll be entertaine

Getting serious butt hurt vibes from you today, hungover?

absolute nonsense to say you would take two players who haven't played in the nhl over fowler right now. put any of those players in the position fowler is in right now and the team is far worse off.

 

[McSuper]

It’s not all Oilers fans, every fan base has their characters, Including Ducks fans. But thanks for stopping by.

Of course this is true. I just hate when fans say book it. The worst team can beat the best team on a given night and a hot goalie can win a cup on a middle of the pack team.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

absolute nonsense to say you would take two players who haven't played in the nhl over fowler right now. put any of those players in the position fowler is in right now and the team is far worse off.

I can't help sRacial Sluring thinking about people who lose their shit over Fowler losing a physical battle getting excited about Zellweger's defense.

edit -Nice algorithm you got there. Is "snickering" better?

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

absolute nonsense to say you would take two players who haven't played in the nhl over fowler right now. put any of those players in the position fowler is in right now and the team is far worse off.

Why would they be put in fowlers spot, they are 4th and 5th on left depth chart

 

[dracom]

Why would they be put in fowlers spot, they are 4th and 5th on left depth chart

Your comment suggested to me that you would take all of those players over Fowler currently which to me is nonsense.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Your comment suggested to me that you would take all of those players over Fowler currently which to me is nonsense.

I just meant I’d run with that as our core on the left side and take my chances, not zellweger and hinds jump over minty Vaaks and lacombe and take Fowler’s mins