Not at all. Friedman is suggesting that he's expendable, doesn't really have a role to "impact." Clearly he does. If he plays 12-13 minutes a night and isn't a liability like the other options we have behind him that's a pretty big impact. The chances of dealing him and getting anything that's the same or better for the present are very slim. It's a silly point of view from Friedman. You don't have to be a top 6 guy to have an important role.
News Article: Friedman 30 Thoughts (Jets)
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Not at all. Friedman is suggesting that he's expendable, doesn't really have a role to "impact." Clearly he does. If he plays 12-13 minutes a night and isn't a liability like the other options we have behind him that's a pretty big impact. The chances of dealing him and getting anything that's the same or better for the present are very slim. It's a silly point of view from Friedman. You don't have to be a top 6 guy to have an important role.
No kidding. We've had a decent to good top six for a couple of years. It's the bottom six (and goaltending, last year notwithstanding) that have killed us.
garret9
AKA#VitoCorrelationi
scelaton
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- Jul 5, 2012
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Yeah, but Burmi has scored ALL his goals this year from the Jets blue line.
My eyes do not deceive me and my memory is perfect!
Aavco Cup
"I can make you cry in this room"
- Sep 5, 2013
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Yeah, but Burmi has scored ALL his goals this year from the Jets blue line.
My eyes do not deceive me and my memory is perfect!
Maybe he called that shot?
CaptainChef
Registered User
Thanks Garret. Your discussions regarding Burmi & how he makes those around him better have been what has really helped me see Burmi for what he is. I think Friedman is either misunderstood or in left field on this one -- as long as Burmi knows his role on this team, he will remain an integral part of who we are.
And, by that I'm not saying that he should necessarily remain on the 3rd line because I really wonder how long it will be before PoMo decides to swap Patan & Burmi
As a slightly different take on it....
I don't disagree that it's reasonable to expect Petan to be a better offensive player than Burmi. That said I think you might substantially change the dynamic of the 3rd by swapping the two. Burmi+Lowry is plus possession that allows for Stafford's minus defensive play to be hidden. So the question is whether Petan can bring that aspect as well? If so, then make the switch but I think you then drop the 4th line back to what the Jets have classically had in that the likelihood of scoring is diminished so we really only have minute eaters. Copp's good there, Christ Horburn is fine as a 4th line player but the creativity is coming at the moment from Petan and he's the biggest difference to what we normally see from our 4th. But if Petan doesn't bring the same type of possession to the third line that Burmi does then you've changed the dynamic of that line from possession to a scoring type of line. Whether that would be good or bad remains to be seen.
I'm not worried about Petan getting his chances to play on the upper lines, it'll come with injuries and I hope he thrives there. But in the (very) short term, I'm enjoying seeing a 4th line that is doing more than pinning the puck along the boards.
garret9
AKA#VitoCorrelationi
Plus, as much as I wish against it, our top 10 forwards are not going to be healthy for 82 GP.
He'll get some top 9 TOI.
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I disagree. We can still have an 8-10 min 4th line without Petan there. He can spark some offense on the 4th line but he can spark a lot of offense with better linemates. He will probably never be as good defensively as Burmi but he has shown he is going to be pretty good.
The current arrangement is fine for the time being but once he gets comfortable Petan will be wasted on the 4th line. He will move up when we have an injury and may never drop back down to the 4th again.
Petan is talented enough that could land on any line, but there's something to be said for beefing up all lines, to ensure that you can balance TOI as was done last night (pretty much 15-15-15-10'ish [10 for Petan, 8+ for Thor and Copp).
You could move Burmi down, but that line would end up not driving offense the way it can and probably will with Petan there.
Nothing wrong with playing to the strengths of Petan to help bolster scoring across all lines. That 4th line should match up VERY well against many fourth lines in the league, and has the potential to beat many of them. With scoring at a premium, what's wrong with having an advantage there, where it's typically been a Jets disadvantage? I don't see him "wasted" on the 4th - I see it as taking advantage of an opportunity. I love Petan as a player - always have. I'm not trying to pigeon-hole him in a bad spot - I think he can be a difference maker on that line.
Since you bring it up, though: how would you get a useful 8-10m out of that line, where the line isn't simply an "energy line / time killer while-we-rest-our-better-lines line"?
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The problem, when healthy is who goes down if Petan goes up. I get it. The obvious answer is Burmi but he might be better used elsewhere too. A 4th line of BCT would still be the best 4th line we have ever had though. We would still be able to trust them for 8-10 minutes and they would probably score as much with Burmi as with Petan. Meanwhile the 3rd would score quite a bit more with Petan feeding Stafford and Lowry and would still be sound defensively. I'm not sure that Petan would land on the 3rd line once he starts to move up though but that is more for the future.
As I said before, once he moves up because of an injury he might well never come back that far. There will be one injury or another most of the time. We will likely see Raffl - Copp - Thorburn before too long. Not wishing for an injury but we all know it is coming.
I have to disagree with you, Mort: moving Burmi down to the 4th turns that line into a possible possession line that can spell off the other lines, but I think that it will not drive any offense. Let's say it's the 3rd period, and the Jets are behind - what happens to that line? It sits on the bench. Where does that put us? It gives us a 4th line that get 6-8 minutes again.
Burmi is a very good player - very strong on the possession side, but he does not drive offense. The book hasn't been written on Petan yet, and I think he'll be a very responsible player defensively and help drive possession, but we don't know that yet. We DO know that he can drive offense, unlike Burmi.
For me, that's why you place him on the 4th. Instead of overloading the 3rd and creating a weaker 4th, you balance the two lines. Stafford offsets the low scoring of Burmi and Lowry, Burmi and Lowry offset the relatively poor defensive play of Staff, allowing him to simply seek offense. Petan perks up the 4th, making them dangerous to put pucks in the net with more regularity than before. I think we'll see some good match-ups for them, especially at home - I think Petan - Copp - Thor could potentially feast on some of the weaker 4th lines out there.
As you state: injuries will happen - Petan will be forced to move up. Petan will also get PP2 time, I'm sure. In the meantime, I love the idea of 4 lines for an opposing coach to have to worry about.
Burmi is a very good player - very strong on the possession side, but he does not drive offense. The book hasn't been written on Petan yet, and I think he'll be a very responsible player defensively and help drive possession, but we don't know that yet. We DO know that he can drive offense, unlike Burmi.
For me, that's why you place him on the 4th. Instead of overloading the 3rd and creating a weaker 4th, you balance the two lines. Stafford offsets the low scoring of Burmi and Lowry, Burmi and Lowry offset the relatively poor defensive play of Staff, allowing him to simply seek offense. Petan perks up the 4th, making them dangerous to put pucks in the net with more regularity than before. I think we'll see some good match-ups for them, especially at home - I think Petan - Copp - Thor could potentially feast on some of the weaker 4th lines out there.
As you state: injuries will happen - Petan will be forced to move up. Petan will also get PP2 time, I'm sure. In the meantime, I love the idea of 4 lines for an opposing coach to have to worry about.
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The thing is that with Petan there the offense depends mostly on his playmaking skills. They are not going to be completely wasted on Copp and Thor but they are not going to be optimized by any means. So some fraction of the potential will be realized. Add to that minimizing his 5v5 time and we are not taking full advantage of his ability.
With Burmi in the same slot he is going to drive possession into the O zone. Scoring chances will naturally come from that at somewhere near the rate of Petan created chances. Probably a little less but even if it is down by half it is half of Petan's reduced potential, reduced by lack of better linemates and by reduced 5v5 TOI. Often Burmi will get an O zone FO and a line change. The next line will score more as a result. Burmi is not an offensive black hole just like Petan is not defensively.
There is no sure way to say how long it will take. It might be a season or two but my guess is more like 20-30 games until Petan is simply performing at too high a level for the 4th line. You wouldn't put Bryan Little on the 4th so that Stafford could have the extra defensive support of Burmi on his line. I'm more than happy with Petan where he is right now. I'm just saying I don't think it will be long before he outgrows that role. If we have to accept a small loss in the quality of the 4th line for a big boost to the top 9 I'll do that gladly. Its not as though it means bringing back Slater and Halischuk.
PS:4th line down to 6-8 minutes where we trail in the 3rd period = Petan playing with skilled linemates and producing the tieing and winning goals. Meanwhile in games where we lead in the 3rd our strong possession 4th line gets extra time preserving the win and resting our top 6.
PPS: Petan will soon (soon is a flexible word) surpass Burmi in overall hockey (my seat of the pants prediction). The better player will get more TOI.
Last PS: Injuries will say that both Petan and Burmi stay in the top 9 most of the time and Raffl joins the 4th line.
Tom ServoMST3K
In search of a Steinbach Hero
Seeing as PoMo said he balenced the rest of his lines after BLS, I don't think he's going anywhere.
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I still disagree with you Mort, but I'm tired of typing. You have worn me down again.
I'm sorry to hear that. Not my intention at all. I respect your opinion and I share your enthusiasm for the good 4th line. I'll just leave it at that.
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I think Burmi and Lowry are a lock this season. They give us something very special on a 3a or 2b line depending on the game situation. I see Nic working well on the 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th line as the season wears on but he would replace Stafford on the 3rd line not Burmi IMO (still prefer the way it is for now). We need Burmi and Lowry together to hard match against toughs IMO. Either Stafford or Petan could provide the offensive catalyst.
Thing about Nic is he is in great spot "for now". He optimizes our 4th line scoring which drives minutes and can be used PP2. He is also on deck and ready to fill in when not if injuries happens. Perfect way to start his career. In this case even if it doesn't optimize Nic's scoring potential short term I do think it optimizes team effectivness by creating balance. My guess is he plays > 40 games on other lines this season but for now I am going to sit back and actually enjoy the bizarre concept of looking forward to the Jets 4th line hitting the ice!!
Thing about Nic is he is in great spot "for now". He optimizes our 4th line scoring which drives minutes and can be used PP2. He is also on deck and ready to fill in when not if injuries happens. Perfect way to start his career. In this case even if it doesn't optimize Nic's scoring potential short term I do think it optimizes team effectivness by creating balance. My guess is he plays > 40 games on other lines this season but for now I am going to sit back and actually enjoy the bizarre concept of looking forward to the Jets 4th line hitting the ice!!
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No way Stafford lines up on the 4th line. There really is no one currently in the top 9 to move down. I agree about Burmi. He doesn't belong on the 4th line either. We have 10 top 9 players. Right now that leaves Petan as the odd man out, "for now".
I never suggested changing it now, or tomorrow. My guess is he gets closer to 60 games on other lines. 40 would be better because that would mean we have had less injuries.
Now this I can agree with - I think I expressed it in the tomes written above, as well.
I wouldn't even consider swapping Petan and Burmi. Burmi works well with Lowry and Stafford. He's a perimeter player but the other two are great along the boards and are more aggressive with taking it to the net. He's also great through the neutral zone, which the others aren't. Petan is a much smarter player than Burmi and is far more effective on the 4th than Burmi would be. Petan will jump all over the lineup as injuries hit, and he'll be fine doing that.
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Now this I can agree with - I think I expressed it in the tomes written above, as well.
So did I YWG. We never were all that far apart in what we were saying but I won't stress your typing fingers by going back there.
Just want to see more Petaning. 
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