mathonwy
Positively #toxic
- Jan 21, 2008
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My recollection of MayRay is that he got knocked down a lot but always got back up and never shied away from contact.
Maybe resilient is a better word.
Former Canucks: Players & Management (Kevin Bieksa retirement watch)
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My recollection of MayRay is that he got knocked down a lot but always got back up and never shied away from contact.
Maybe resilient is a better word.
Addison Rae
Registered User
How am I revising history when you're cherry picking stats?
Attack my argument which was 50 point players who are good defensively, drive possession and score a lot at even strength are definitely more than 2nd/3rd line tweener. Can you show precedence of players who have done the above and were considered tweeners? If not you're not debunking anything.
vadim sharifijanov
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- Oct 10, 2007
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he always went wide, never cut in. not that he could have cut in most of the time because he was so weak on his skates, but still.
yes, he fell over a lot. and no, even though he would never ever take the puck to the net, he also didn't shy away from contact in the corners or on the backcheck. but i don't know necessarily that him falling over all the time means what you're suggesting. i've never seen a guy fall so often after routine or incidental contact. for a smaller guy, you would never mistake him for brendan gallagher or gilbert brule, to name two of his peers, or theo fleury, mark recchi, or joe mullen, to name three small wingers way out of mayray's league who you would say "got involved."
i don't say this to slander raymond, mind you. it's not like baertschi is any better in this regard. and at least raymond, who was the less talented player, figured out a way to use his abilities to be a plus defensively and a useful PKer. baertschi for all his superior vision and hands contributes nothing but raymond-level scoring.
He did it for one season though.. and the very next season he proved the numbers were not sustainable and that was with Kesler scoring 70 points on the same line. If you can't sustain production you are not a top 6 forward.. simple as that.
And how am I cherry picking stats? I used a full season including the playoffs which shows he was not even close to an excellent 2nd line winger.
Addison Rae
Registered User
You don't seem to grasp the fact that no one is suggesting that he was a top 6 forward for an en extended period of time, you keep trying to make that seem like it's a thing.
Again Kesler scored a lot of his points on the power play with the Sedins in 2010/2011 and he far from an elite distributor that season so he's not exactly an ideal linemate. That season Raymond again scored at a ~50 point rate again, mostly at even strength.
Again if you can't find precedence of players scoring 50 points mostly at even strength while being good defensively and having good possession numbers then you're not debunking anything.
Intangibos
High-End Intangibos
Raymond was pretty underrated, very Wellwoodesque.
People have a thing against having 'soft' players on the 3rd line even if they're excellent defensively/able to chip in a little offensively. I honestly don't think there is much of a difference between Sutter and Raymond. It's not like Sutter plays a physical game, and honestly I think Raymond is a better player when it comes to not getting scored on / scoring / possession stats. Sutter just plays a more important position.
He didn't reach his potential, but he was by no means a bad player.
People have a thing against having 'soft' players on the 3rd line even if they're excellent defensively/able to chip in a little offensively. I honestly don't think there is much of a difference between Sutter and Raymond. It's not like Sutter plays a physical game, and honestly I think Raymond is a better player when it comes to not getting scored on / scoring / possession stats. Sutter just plays a more important position.
He didn't reach his potential, but he was by no means a bad player.
You don't seem to grasp the fact that one 50 point season does not make a player an excellent 2nd line winger..
You said - "Yup, Raymond is his prime was way better than Baertschi is right now. He was extremely solid defensively and was an excellent 2nd line winger. "
2010/2011 stats I posted were also his prime and before the injury and proves he was certainly not an excellent 2nd line winger. 2 goals in 24 playoff games when your teams needs goals more than anything... excellent.
Intangibos
High-End Intangibos
What are Baertschi's playoff stats? I think we're talking regular season here bud
I don't care about Baertschi. I'm just disputing the Raymond was an excellent 2nd line winger comment which is obviously not true and is laughable that I even have to argue this...
Intangibos
High-End Intangibos
35 point pace in his rookie year (07-08)
26 point pace the next year (bad)
25g 28a 53p in 2009/2010 (good 2nd line production)
45 point pace in 2010/2011
30 point pace the next year recovering from a broken back
40 point pace in 2013
19g 26a 45p for Toronto
33 point pace in Calgary
For a few years when he was scoring 40-55 points with very little/no powerplay time with a "solo" centre like Kesler who scored primarily on the powerplay, all the while being very good defensively is a nice 2nd line winger to have. For those 4 years I would call him an excellent 2nd liner, but the other years he was a tweener, but still very much an NHLer
You have to remember how important powerplay time is when it comes to point production. The only special teams deployment Raymond got was being part of one of the best PKs in the league. Even in 2011 when he had PP time the C for the 2nd PP was Malhotra, wasn't it? He also scored at a 27 point pace in the 211 playoffs with Samuelsson and Malhotra out, meaning he lost his winger that could score and also had to take on a major defensive role. The 2nd line with Kesler and Raymond being retooled as a defensive line with the loss of Malhotra was a huge loss for the Canucks, and no doubt had an effect on Raymond's production.
If you define 'excellent' as elite, then no, he was not. He was definitely more than a tweener for a few years and not even a fringe 2nd liner. He was a 2nd liner on a championship tier team. Also his salary was what, 2.5m? Salary cap plays a huge role in how valuable a player is, and that made Raymond very valuable. I'd take 2011 Raymond at 2.5m over a 60 point 2nd liner without the same defensive ability as Raymond, considering how much a 60 point 2nd liner gets paid.
Addison Rae
Registered User
It's like you're ignoring the argument again and again and again.
I argued that this player was excellent from 2009/2011 where he scored at a 50 point pace mainly at even strength, driving possession and being very good defensively. In 2011 he scored at a 47 point pace, again while being a very good defensive player and a even strength driver. It's absurd that you keep looking over this, in the 152 games he played from 2009/2011 he scored 92 points. That's his production in the time table I mentioned. In 2010/2011 Raymond was 82nd in NHL scoring, which is very good line production especially when you factor in most of his points came at even strength.
If the notion that he was a 2nd line is absurd why can't you debunk it? You keep trying to argue around that, look at his points/60, RelCorsi, QOC in the time period compare it to other players you can adjust his scoring too if you want an construct and argument on how a player with this type of impact from 2009/2011 wasn't a top 6 forward, if this isn't even something you should be arguing than it should be extremely easy, no?
I can agree that he had potential to be a top 6 forward (unlikely but possible) but never got there. His numbers fell off big time after a career year (2009/2010) once teams figured out how to easily box him out of scoring areas. Kesler had to do all the scoring by himself at that point. How does an excellent top 6 winger score only 2 goals and 8 points on 24 game cup run? Just a slump I guess eh.. Maybe he would have made improvements to become a legit top 6 forward if not for the injury but we will never know.
Intangibos
High-End Intangibos
He was a 40+ ES point player until like 2014, excluding a 30 point year when he was recovering from a broken back. As far as I know 2009-2014 is more than 1 year, but I'll have to check my calculations later.
Also, as I explained in my post, 8 points in 24 games is a 27 point pace without playing on the top PP unit (which was where all the elite players played), and was deployed in a primarily defensive role due to the Malhotra and Samuelsson injuries.
If you want to look at everything in a vacuum and ignore all contributing factors like injuries, linemates, deployment, and defensive play that's fine. Maybe you could also give us some analysis based on +/- statistics?
VC
Registered User
Raymond had a couple of seasons of being a very good 2nd liner, career wise he was a pretty good complimentary 2/3 tweener.
I just wonder how much his production was affected by being on a powerhouse offensive time. His career season was with a 50a Kesler when both were on the #2 PP unit. In a direct comparison, I would guess Baertschi would at least match Raymond's production. I would think Baertschi would of been a better natural offensive fit and a better complimentary player to that line, not defensively though I personally wanted always wanted a more skilled geared winger on that line.
I would never describe Raymond's defense as excellent but maybe as accomplished. An underappreciated two-way winger. I really like Raymond as a player, same a Chris Higgins. Ideally on the 3rd line with spot duty on the 2nd.
I just wonder how much his production was affected by being on a powerhouse offensive time. His career season was with a 50a Kesler when both were on the #2 PP unit. In a direct comparison, I would guess Baertschi would at least match Raymond's production. I would think Baertschi would of been a better natural offensive fit and a better complimentary player to that line, not defensively though I personally wanted always wanted a more skilled geared winger on that line.
I would never describe Raymond's defense as excellent but maybe as accomplished. An underappreciated two-way winger. I really like Raymond as a player, same a Chris Higgins. Ideally on the 3rd line with spot duty on the 2nd.
Adam Polasek made the Czech Olympic team.
Erat, Cervenka headline Czech Olympic roster - Article - TSN
Erat, Cervenka headline Czech Olympic roster - Article - TSN
Hit the post
I have your gold medal Zippy!
heh, for a moment I thought it was *LIBOR* Polasek you were referring to & thought to myself.....woah, they're really reaching for players now that the NHL won't be there....who's next? Leif Rohlin for Team Sweden LOL?
Hollywood Burrows
Registered User
Lmao where is the evidence that Baertschi is more skilled than Raymond? He must be more skilled because he's a soft defensive player who's invisible when he's not scoring, right? Oh and he was a first round pick. foh
Per Sjoblom
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- Jan 3, 2018
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They Swedish national hockey association will present Sweden's Olympic roster tomorrow. Hopefully they' will be some juniors in the team.
PG Canuck
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- Mar 29, 2010
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Eddy Punch Clock
Jack Adams 2028
He mostly just fell down on his own accord.
Still had my favourite hat trick ever... didn't even know he scored it until he was sitting on the bench.
Hmm...so Andrey Pedan was the AHL player of the week last week after five points in two games, including the first hat-trick by a Wilkes Barre d-man since 2012. If he ever starts figuring out and using his natural physicality, he could be a better depth d-man than a guy like Pouliot.
Intangibos
High-End Intangibos
I think he has the tools but I would avoid any player with his concussion history
I guess for a depth player it's not a big deal but I think there are better depth players to be had for cheap
Don't know if it's been posted here, but I'm not going to go through 39 pages to find out so I'll just post it.
Ex-Canucks contracts on the U.S. Olympic team. Bobby Sanguinetti, the best D-man to play with the Comets, now playing in the NLA (Switzerland) and Chad Billins, a Comet last season, now playing in the SHL (Sweden).
Ex-Canucks contracts on the U.S. Olympic team. Bobby Sanguinetti, the best D-man to play with the Comets, now playing in the NLA (Switzerland) and Chad Billins, a Comet last season, now playing in the SHL (Sweden).
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