Confirmed with Link: Flyers sign Garnet Hathaway, 2 x 2.375m

[KingRyan1088]

Everyone's worried about Hathaway taking a roster spot on a bottom six role and most likely a 4 line role. I'm not concerned, he has a function and will be fun to watch. The idea that he's blocking a rising young soon to be 4th liner is a joke. You don't put Bobby Brink on the 4th line and hope he develops into a scorer, while playing a checking role. They should be looking at the middle six for spots for Foerster or Brink, which would mean moving on from Laughton or Atkinson. Atkinson lobbied to get Torts here, so he's probably staying.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Everyone's worried about Hathaway taking a roster spot on a bottom six role and most likely a 4 line role. I'm not concerned, he has a function and will be fun to watch. The idea that he's blocking a rising young soon to be 4th liner is a joke. You don't put Bobby Brink on the 4th line and hope he develops into a scorer, while playing a checking role. They should be looking at the middle six for spots for Foerster or Brink, which would mean moving on from Laughton or Atkinson. Atkinson lobbied to get Torts here, so he's probably staying.

Here’s an idea…Let’s throw outdated roles out the window and join the 21st century when it comes to roster building.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Here’s an idea…Let’s throw outdated roles out the window and join the 21st century when it comes to roster building.

or we can keep doing the samething they do every year.. keep adding old washed up vets instead of promoting youth up.

cuz its been working so well these last 50 years..

#carryon

 

[KingRyan1088]

I guess your right. I mean the Golden Knights just won the Stanley Cup with a smallish 4th line that put up a lot of points.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

You'll notice in my post I said Brink and Foerster will be on the team. After those two, our prospects are bottom six guys. I'm not worried about a different bottom six blocking a bottom six guy.

Show me a realistic lineup with foerster and brink in the lineup and explain what happened to the vets that dont have a Roster spot in your lineup.
Trading Laughton, Atkinson will not happen. So dont start with this. Facepuncher will also play, so dont take him out of the lineup. Hathaeay will be in the lineup. I wait....

 

[dats81]

Big question marks behind Couts and Atkinson, that and maybe one more trade and all of a sudden lots of job openings in the top-6, which is where kids like Brink and Foerster belong.

 

[mja]

Big question marks behind Couts and Atkinson, that and maybe one more trade and all of a sudden lots of job openings in the top-6, which is where kids like Brink and Foerster belong.

Yes, this is exactly how the organization thinks, and it's exactly how we got to this low point. What if Couts and Atkinson play all 82? What if there are no trades? Brink and Foerster play in the A all year despite both being able to play in the NHL right now? What happens the year after that? Same deal?

Hockey's changed dramatically in the last 20 years. If you're still holding onto there being 6 "scoring" forward spots and 6 "checking" forward spots on a roster than you are stuck in the past. Look around the league; you dress your 12 best forwards!

Remember the last time this team was really exciting, in 2010? Tell me, who centered the third line that year? How many career games and points did he have before the start of that season? Who was the rookie winger platooning on his left? How far did we get in the playoffs that year again?

 

[deadhead]

Here’s an idea…Let’s throw outdated roles out the window and join the 21st century when it comes to roster building.

Here's an idea, let's look at the rosters of top teams and find those teams with top six players on their fourth line?
Oh, there aren't any? Maybe b/c there's a salary cap?

If a 4th liner was good enough to play 15 minutes a night at ES, he'd be on the second line.
Few teams have six or seven players who score at the league median 2nd line level (which would be 4.5 players, 3 + 1.5), much less 10 of them.

So which is better, a bottom six "skilled" player who is both mediocre on defense and scores at a bottom six level or a player who isn't offensively skilled but is good on defense and takes PK minutes, freeing more skilled players to spend more minutes in offensive roles.

Your offensively skilled prospects are generally better served to be either in the top nine, playing at least 12 minutes a night at ES and hopefully on PP2, or in the AHL on a top line, getting big minutes and honing their skills, If a prospect can't beat out 34 year old Atkinson or Laughton or . . . they should be in the AHL. The exceptions are players like Desnoyers, who are skilled at "bottom six" stuff and can contribute in that role while they learn the ropes.

Farabee - Couts - TK
Tippett - Frost - Atkinson
Laughton - Cates - Foerster
Deslauriers - Poehling - Hathaway (playing 8-10 minutes a night at ES)
Laczynski, Allison
Brink, Lycksell, Wisdom in the AHL to start the season, barring trades

 

[Appleyard]

Here's an idea, let's look at the rosters of top teams and find those teams with top six players on their fourth line?
Oh, there aren't any? Maybe b/c there's a salary cap?

If a 4th liner was good enough to play 15 minutes a night at ES, he'd be on the second line.
Few teams have six or seven players who score at the league median 2nd line level (which would be 4.5 players, 3 + 1.5), much less 10 of them.

So which is better, a bottom six "skilled" player who is both mediocre on defense and scores at a bottom six level or a player who isn't offensively skilled but is good on defense and takes PK minutes, freeing more skilled players to spend more minutes in offensive roles.

Your offensively skilled prospects are generally better served to be either in the top nine, playing at least 12 minutes a night at ES and hopefully on PP2, or in the AHL on a top line, getting big minutes and honing their skills, If a prospect can't beat out 34 year old Atkinson or Laughton or . . . they should be in the AHL. The exceptions are players like Desnoyers, who are skilled at "bottom six" stuff and can contribute in that role while they learn the ropes.

Farabee - Couts - TK
Tippett - Frost - Atkinson
Laughton - Cates - Foerster
Deslauriers - Poehling - Hathaway (playing 8-10 minutes a night at ES)
Laczynski, Allison
Brink, Lycksell, Wisdom in the AHL to start the season, barring trades

But when you do look at top teams?

They might not be "top 6" players on the 4th line... but they have offensive talent and are really 3rd line level guys playing 4th line.

I mean:

Carrier-Roy-Kolesar

is three guys who combined for NINETY-FIVE points per 82 games between them! (albeit Roy was 3C/4C over the year)

Roy is a good 3C who... ah... started career on 4th line at age 22!
Carrier is a good 3LW who... ah... started career on 4th line at age 23!
Kolesar is a good 4th liner who would play 3rd line on some teams... ah... started career on 4th line at age 23!

And all three were guys who were P/GP players in junior hockey who played top six in the AHL.

Annnnd Roy DOES play 15+ minutes a night. And Carrier easily would on a lot of teams.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Show me a realistic lineup with foerster and brink in the lineup and explain what happened to the vets that dont have a Roster spot in your lineup.
Trading Laughton, Atkinson will not happen. So dont start with this. Facepuncher will also play, so dont take him out of the lineup. Hathaeay will be in the lineup. I wait....

So if I am not allowed to include lineup changes that have been rumored all off-season under your rules for some reason then I can't and one of Brink or Foerster will be blocked. Worst case scenario a 22 year-old Bobby Brink who only played half a season last year due to injury starts the year in the AHL. The horror! Bobby Brink getting top six minutes in the AHL is going to ruin his development and Garnet Hathaway's 20+ point season is really going to f*** up the rebuild. The Flyers have done it again!

 

[Strawberry Fields]

If he spits on Torts like he did Gudbranson is the signing worth it?

 

[deadhead]

But when you do look at top teams?

They might not be "top 6" players on the 4th line... but they have offensive talent and are really 3rd line level guys playing 4th line.

I mean:

Carrier-Roy-Kolesar

is three guys who combined for NINETY-FIVE points per 82 games between them! (albeit Roy was 3C/4C over the year)

Roy is a good 3C who... ah... started career on 4th line at age 22!
Carrier is a good 3LW who... ah... started career on 4th line at age 23!
Kolesar is a good 4th liner who would play 3rd line on some teams... ah... started career on 4th line at age 23!

And all three were guys who were P/GP players in junior hockey who played top six in the AHL.

Annnnd Roy DOES play 15+ minutes a night. And Carrier easily would on a lot of teams.

Carrier was up and down until he was 25, physical forward who fits the bottom six "energy" prototype.
Kolesar is another physical guy who started on the 4th line halfway through his 23 year old season, then moved up to the third line
Roy didn't start until he was 23, on the third line, second line minutes the last two years.
Notice they all marinated in the AHL.
Roy 2 full seasons, 27 PO games, called up in his 3rd AHL season,
Kolaser 151 AHL games, 24 PO games, Kolesar 127 AHL games

Which proves my point, the young guys who start on the 4th line should be energy types, who can then use that to earn their way up the lineup.
Less physical/defensively responsible forwards are better served in the AHL, honing their offensive skills so they can make an immediate impact.

Desnoyers is a good example of a player (if he's strong enough, that's what will hold him back this season) to start in a 4th line role, play on the PK and learn on the job.
Lycksell is probably better served returning to LHV on the first line there if he can't break into the top 9.
Wisdom is also a 4th line type, but he probably needs another season in the AHL.
Avon could also fill a 4th line role effectively but needs time in the AHL.

 

[Appleyard]

Carrier was up and down until he was 25, physical forward who fits the bottom six "energy" prototype.
Kolesar is another physical guy who started on the 4th line halfway through his 23 year old season, then moved up to the third line
Roy didn't start until he was 23, on the third line, second line minutes the last two years.
Notice they all marinated in the AHL.

Which proves my point, the young guys who start on the 4th line should be energy types, who can then use that to earn their way up the lineup.
Less physical/defensively responsible forwards are better served in the AHL, honing their offensive skills so they can make an immediate impact.

Desnoyers is a good example of a player (if he's strong enough, that's what will hold him back this season) to start in a 4th line role, play on the PK and learn on the job.
Lycksell is probably better served returning to LHV on the first line there if he can't break into the top 9.
Wisdom is also a 4th line type, but he probably needs another season in the AHL.
Avon could also fill a 4th line role effectively but needs time in the AHL.

None of them were seen as "4th line" guys though at ~20-21 or so. They were guys who were slotted into future top 6s and 9s. Because they have skill and can produce.

I would see no problem with Desnoyers and Lycksell starting on 4th line at some point this year. Both 2-way guys who played C growing up and can PK.
Allison is a guy who... like maybe Carrier (albeit he is slightly more "talented") who once was seen as a potential 2nd liner but his skill-set would actually be great on a stereotypical 4th line.


All that being said... Hathaway is a guy who could be a good 12th forward on a contender and not a "problem" in himself.
But having Deslauriers, Poehling and Hathaway does seem a bit like over-kill... albeit 2/3 would be fine really.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Here's an idea, let's look at the rosters of top teams and find those teams with top six players on their fourth line?
Oh, there aren't any? Maybe b/c there's a salary cap?

If a 4th liner was good enough to play 15 minutes a night at ES, he'd be on the second line.
Few teams have six or seven players who score at the league median 2nd line level (which would be 4.5 players, 3 + 1.5), much less 10 of them.

So which is better, a bottom six "skilled" player who is both mediocre on defense and scores at a bottom six level or a player who isn't offensively skilled but is good on defense and takes PK minutes, freeing more skilled players to spend more minutes in offensive roles.

Your offensively skilled prospects are generally better served to be either in the top nine, playing at least 12 minutes a night at ES and hopefully on PP2, or in the AHL on a top line, getting big minutes and honing their skills, If a prospect can't beat out 34 year old Atkinson or Laughton or . . . they should be in the AHL. The exceptions are players like Desnoyers, who are skilled at "bottom six" stuff and can contribute in that role while they learn the ropes.

Farabee - Couts - TK
Tippett - Frost - Atkinson
Laughton - Cates - Foerster
Deslauriers - Poehling - Hathaway (playing 8-10 minutes a night at ES)
Laczynski, Allison
Brink, Lycksell, Wisdom in the AHL to start the season, barring trades

When did anyone say anything about “top six” players? Do you mean that in the sense that they’re offensively capable? Because that’s just proving my point with how a roster is looked at. “If you can score you need to be in the top six because the bottom two lines are for grinding only!”

And why bring up the salary cap when the Flyers are paying a scrub in Deslauriers $1.75M and now less so a scrub in Hathaway $2.375M? Pretty sure that’s more than what any kids would be getting paid.

My point was that you don’t need your fourth line to be solely a checking line. It’s outdated roster construction and it’s a major reason why the Flyers are where they are. As Appleyard pointed out, all of the top teams have a bottom part of their lineup that are still capable offensively.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

There are any number of styles that can be effective, but the 2023-24 Flyers shouldn't want the same thing from their 4th line as a team like the 2022-23 Knights. If they do, that's a Flyer problem.

As amazing as this may seem at times given the framing of discussions, players can develop into more than 4th liners by starting there.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Here's an idea, let's look at the rosters of top teams and find those teams with top six players on their fourth line?
Oh, there aren't any? Maybe b/c there's a salary cap?

If a 4th liner was good enough to play 15 minutes a night at ES, he'd be on the second line.
Few teams have six or seven players who score at the league median 2nd line level (which would be 4.5 players, 3 + 1.5), much less 10 of them.

So which is better, a bottom six "skilled" player who is both mediocre on defense and scores at a bottom six level or a player who isn't offensively skilled but is good on defense and takes PK minutes, freeing more skilled players to spend more minutes in offensive roles.

Your offensively skilled prospects are generally better served to be either in the top nine, playing at least 12 minutes a night at ES and hopefully on PP2, or in the AHL on a top line, getting big minutes and honing their skills, If a prospect can't beat out 34 year old Atkinson or Laughton or . . . they should be in the AHL. The exceptions are players like Desnoyers, who are skilled at "bottom six" stuff and can contribute in that role while they learn the ropes.

Farabee - Couts - TK
Tippett - Frost - Atkinson
Laughton - Cates - Foerster
Deslauriers - Poehling - Hathaway (playing 8-10 minutes a night at ES)
Laczynski, Allison
Brink, Lycksell, Wisdom in the AHL to start the season, barring trades

Colorado literally had Burakovsky on their 4th line a year ago.

 

[deadhead]

None of them were seen as "4th line" guys though at ~20-21 or so. They were guys who were slotted into future top 6s and 9s. Because they have skill and can produce.

I would see no problem with Desnoyers and Lycksell starting on 4th line at some point this year. Both 2-way guys who played C growing up and can PK.
Allison is a guy who... like maybe Carrier (albeit he is slightly more "talented") who once was seen as a potential 2nd liner but his skill-set would actually be great on a stereotypical 4th line.


All that being said... Hathaway is a guy who could be a good 12th forward on a contender and not a "problem" in himself.
But having Deslauriers, Poehling and Hathaway does seem a bit like over-kill... albeit 2/3 would be fine really.

I doubt all 3 will finish the season with the Flyers, I'm sure Deslauriers would waive his NTC to go to a PO contender, Hathaway's second season could be handled by taking an overpaid "13th forward back". Both will probably have a market come the TDL - teams love a Hathaway for PO hockey and Deslauriers was traded for a 3rd a year ago at the TDL.

Poehling is more an extended tryout, at 24 he's a candidate for an extension if they like what they see, and a TDL trade if they don't (that is, they don't think he's a good enough bottom six forward to pay real money).

 

[Ironmanrulez]

So if I am not allowed to include lineup changes that have been rumored all off-season under your rules for some reason then I can't and one of Brink or Foerster will be blocked. Worst case scenario a 22 year-old Bobby Brink who only played half a season last year due to injury starts the year in the AHL. The horror! Bobby Brink getting top six minutes in the AHL is going to ruin his development and Garnet Hathaway's 20+ point season is really going to f*** up the rebuild. The Flyers have done it again!

Every year its the same discussion and every year the flyers block young player for useless vets. He isnt useless in this case but facepuncher is. So if you have facepuncher already why sign more players.

I will stop this here.

Lets agree to disagree

 

[deadhead]

There are only 2 veterans over 30 in the top 9, Couts and Atkinson. Laughton is 29.

A healthy Couts is a cornerstone for a rebuild, you want someone like that in the locker room and on the ice, plus if close to 100%, he'll be a better player than 90% of the forwards you'll draft in the 1st or 2nd round throughout his contract. People forget how good he is when healthy.

Atkinson is a matter of him showing he's healthy and there's still life in his legs.
He'll be a tough TDL move, because of the 2nd year at $5.25M, as we saw with JVR and Hayes, older scorers have little value in today's NH.,
If Atkinson can show he still has top speed, he might be an exception. Will probably be easier to move next summer if he has a 20+ goal season.

So that's 7 spots for young players to grab 12-15 minutes a night of ES time. Odds are one or two of the older forwards, Laughton, TK, will be traded at some point this summer. I won't be surprised if Allison at 26 is also moved. Frost, Farabee, Tippett, and Cates are probably locks. Foerster has the lead over other prospects.

 

[Appleyard]

Colorado literally had Burakovsky on their 4th line a year ago.

St. Louis had 19 year old Robert Thomas on their 4th line for half the 2019 play-offs... rookie, high skilled forward, marked out as a future 1st line forward.

Tampa had 24 year old Carter Verhaege on their 4th line for the 2020 play-offs... a guy who a year later was a 1st line forward.

The year after? Their 4C was their ex 1st line C... Tyler Johnson.

Sooo... yeh...

 

[Beef Invictus]

There are only 2 veterans over 30 in the top 9, Couts and Atkinson. Laughton is 29.

A healthy Couts is a cornerstone for a rebuild, you want someone like that in the locker room and on the ice, plus if close to 100%, he'll be a better player than 90% of the forwards you'll draft in the 1st or 2nd round throughout his contract. People forget how good he is when healthy.

Atkinson is a matter of him showing he's healthy and there's still life in his legs.
He'll be a tough TDL move, because of the 2nd year at $5.25M, as we saw with JVR and Hayes, older scorers have little value in today's NH.,
If Atkinson can show he still has top speed, he might be an exception. Will probably be easier to move next summer if he has a 20+ goal season.

So that's 7 spots for young players to grab 12-15 minutes a night of ES time. Odds are one or two of the older forwards, Laughton, TK, will be traded at some point this summer. I won't be surprised if Allison at 26 is also moved. Frost, Farabee, Tippett, and Cates are probably locks. Foerster has the lead over other prospects.

Rofl there are not 7 open spots. The 4th line is already filled. TK and Laughton are not being traded.

 

[BernieParent]

18-year-old Sean Couturier played on the fourth line with Jody Shelley and Maxime Talbot.

 

[Beef Invictus]

18-year-old Sean Couturier played on the fourth line with Jody Shelley and Maxime Talbot.

Mike Richards started on the 4th line.

Once upon a time this team was aware this was an option, but they've since decided it can't be done because "roles."

 

[Appleyard]

Mike Richards started on the 4th line.

Once upon a time this team was aware this was an option, but they've since decided it can't be done because "roles."

And Jeff Carter... first ~15 games of Flyers career on 4th line.
And Patrick Sharp.
And Claude Giroux played ~15 games on the 4th line in his first year.
And James van Riemsdyk played ~15 games on the 4th line in his first year.
And Justin Williams played ~25 games on the 4th line in his first year.

Sooo basically all the best 7 forwards (these guys, Couturier and Richards) that made their NHL debut with the Flyers this century started on the 4th line or played a decent number of games there in their rookie year.

If 7 of the best ~100 forwards that have made their NHL debut this century can play games on the Flyers 4th line to start their career... anyone can.

 

[Appleyard]

Like... personally I think:

Hathaway-Desnoyers-Allison
Desnoyers/Lycksell-Poehling-Hathaway/Allison

would be solid 4th lines and guys like Desnoyers and Lycksell could provide offense, play okay D and learn how to play in the NHL at same time.