Confirmed with Link: Flames trade for D Michael Stone

[Tkachuk Norris]

Wouldn't classify him as a hitter? Really? His ability and tenacity on the forecheck is a big part of how he made the Rangers roster a few years ago. I think you are reading way too deeply into the comparison. I just really didn't like the comparison to Drouin, whose highly skilled in different ways.

Again. I'm not directly comparing him to Drouin. Im comparing the situation. Highly skilled forward that's available, that really shouldn't be. Get him before he starts scoring again and his value goes back through the roof.

That's pretty much the only way to get young skilled players besides a) drafting them or b) trading a kings random for someone playing well.

Look at earlier in the season. I wanted Mrazek... The crowd was like rabble rabble he's not playing good. We shouldn't get him. Look at him now. Look at Boston with Seguin.

Duclair is that guy right now. And he's on a divisional rival.

 

[The Gnome]

I'm staying optimistic but the reality is Stone hasn't been better than Wideman or Engelland this year. Hopefully, him and Brodie have some chemistry but it's not like Goligoski was a horrible partner.

A dman coming back from knee surgery will absolutely struggle for a while. The backwards to forwards transition, which is a staple of any good dman, is severely impacted by the limits of a knee. This league has seen time and time again dmen that struggle after a knee surgery. I'd say the biggest risk with stone at this point is that his progression as of late plateaus and he's never the same prior to injury.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

I don't think you understand the risk involved in trading for a guy who scored 20 while shooting 19% and then continued to fall off a cliff the moment his SH% also fell. It's probably unsustainably bad this year, but you don't throw around 1st round picks for giant question marks.

I've watched him play a lot of hockey going back to his days with Quebec and he scores a lot of beautiful goals. Talent is talent. Do people not understand how hard it is to score in the NHL? I'm guessing those 20 goals were all winger goals right

Do you understand the risk in picking guys in the middle of a weak first? Do you understand the risk of passing on a guy that could become a consistent 30 goal guy? There is risk in every decision. Don't act like this first is some godsend.

Aren't you guys the people that always make fun of people that go for the mystery box? I mean you guys were the main proponents against Monahan for Laine or Matthews last year, right?

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Again. I'm not directly comparing him to Drouin. Im comparing the situation. Highly skilled forward that's available, that really shouldn't be. Get him before he starts scoring again and his value goes back through the roof.

That's pretty much the only way to get young skilled players besides a) drafting them or b) trading a kings random for someone playing well.

Look at earlier in the season. I wanted Mrazek... The crowd was like rabble rabble he's not playing good. We shouldn't get him. Look at him now. Look at Boston with Seguin.

Duclair is that guy right now. And he's on a divisional rival.

Politely, your "I know better than everyone else" attitude is becoming a little overbearing at times. Even more so in the post you just made while I was typing this.

Just remember for every Seguin there is a Filatov, Yakupov, Griffin Reinhart, Burmistrov, etc.

I agree that Duclair is a good target for what it's worth. I'm just hesitant on how much we should be willing to give up for him.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

I've watched him play a lot of hockey going back to his days with Quebec and he scores a lot of beautiful goals. Talent is talent. Do people not understand how hard it is to score in the NHL? I'm guessing those 20 goals were all winger goals right

Do you understand the risk in picking guys in the middle of a weak first? Do you understand the risk of passing on a guy that could become a consistent 30 goal guy? There is risk in every decision. Don't act like this first is some godsend.

Aren't you guys the people that always make fun of people that go for the mystery box? I mean you guys were the main proponents against Monahan for Laine or Matthews last year, right?

Still a huge assumption either team would have made that trade.

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

Wouldn't classify him as a hitter? Really? His ability and tenacity on the forecheck is a big part of how he made the Rangers roster a few years ago. I think you are reading way too deeply into the comparison. I just really didn't like the comparison to Drouin, whose highly skilled in different ways.

Duclair had 16 hits last season. When he made the Rangers he had 6 hits in 18 games. Hardly the hitter.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/d/duclaan01.html

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Duclair had 16 hits last season. When he made the Rangers he had 6 hits in 18 games. Hardly the hitter.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/d/duclaan01.html

Do they have the pre-season stats? That's what in particular I was referring to specifically in that point. I'm on my phone at the moment.

Maybe hitter isn't the right term, but he's strong on the forecheck and strong on puck battles along the walls.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Politely, your "I know better than everyone else" attitude is becoming a little overbearing at times. Even more so in the post you just made while I was typing this.

Just remember for every Seguin there is a Filatov, Yakupov, Griffin Reinhart, Burmistrov, etc.

I agree that Duclair is a good target for what it's worth. I'm just hesitant on how much we should be willing to give up for him.

like Duclair I've been a huge fan of Mrazek going back to his WJC years (where both were elite). And like Duclair I don't change my opinions on players because of one year of struggles. Especially if they are young. Young players struggle. Occasionally GMs are stupid enough to consider trading them. That's when people should go after them.

That's why we should have gone after Drouin last year, Mrazek earlier in the year. That's why we should go after Duclair before he starts to score again.

Edit: although I think Treliving asked about Drouin and the ask back was Bennett. And Duclair was the main piece on an offer for Dougie. So maybe Treliving is trying but the GMs just value these players way higher than people on HF.

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

Do they have the pre-season stats? That's what in particular I was referring to. I'm on my phone at the moment.

No, but I made a mistake. He had 27 hits last season and 16 this season before being sent down. Rangers numbers are still fine. Still, not that physical.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Wouldn't classify him as a hitter? Really? His ability and tenacity on the forecheck is a big part of how he made the Rangers roster a few years ago. I think you are reading way too deeply into the comparison. I just really didn't like the comparison to Drouin, whose highly skilled in different ways.

Not really taking one argument over the other, but Duclair has only registered 16 hits this season. Take from that what you will.

 

[Sparky93]

A dman coming back from knee surgery will absolutely struggle for a while. The backwards to forwards transition, which is a staple of any good dman, is severely impacted by the limits of a knee. This league has seen time and time again dmen that struggle after a knee surgery. I'd say the biggest risk with stone at this point is that his progression as of late plateaus and he's never the same prior to injury.

Oh I understand rehabbing on the fly, but a lot of posters are making this deal out to solving all the problems on the backend and it simply won't, until he's 100% at least. Like you say, the only risk is offering him a contract if he's not 100% by the end of the season. He's a $4 million man right now, so even if we can sign him for $3 million, it's still risky. I'd hate to end up paying Engelland's replacement $3 million, if he doesn't fully recover.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Oh I understand rehabbing on the fly, but a lot of posters are making this deal out to solving all the problems on the backend and it simply won't, until he's 100% at least. Like you say, the only risk is offering him a contract if he's not 100% by the end of the season. He's a $4 million man right now, so even if we can sign him for $3 million, it's still risky. I'd hate to end up paying Engelland's replacement $3 million, if he doesn't fully recover.

Really, who said it would solve all our problems on D?

What posters are saying is that Brodie won't have to play with Wideman anymore, which is in itself a win.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Oh I understand rehabbing on the fly, but a lot of posters are making this deal out to solving all the problems on the backend and it simply won't, until he's 100% at least. Like you say, the only risk is offering him a contract if he's not 100% by the end of the season. He's a $4 million man right now, so even if we can sign him for $3 million, it's still risky. I'd hate to end up paying Engelland's replacement $3 million, if he doesn't fully recover.

Apparently Stone has been better of late though.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

I've watched him play a lot of hockey going back to his days with Quebec and he scores a lot of beautiful goals. Talent is talent. Do people not understand how hard it is to score in the NHL? I'm guessing those 20 goals were all winger goals right

Do you understand the risk in picking guys in the middle of a weak first? Do you understand the risk of passing on a guy that could become a consistent 30 goal guy? There is risk in every decision. Don't act like this first is some godsend.

First off, the majority of sticking points in your argument have nothing to do with me, this post has personal vendetta written all over it and I'm not sure why.

Secondly, are you unaware that Duclair is a "mystery box" every bit as much as any 1st round pick at this point? Don't act like he's a sure thing, he's not. You'd be trading a mystery box for a mystery box. Duclair isn't some proven commodity you seem to think he is.

Regardless, what went over your head, is I was arguing from a value standpoint. If Treliving were to put our first round pick in play, I'm sure he'd be able to find better value than a player demoted to the AHL because he's struggled so heavily.

I'm not against adding Duclair, but a 1st is an overpayment for where his value is at to me right now.

 

[Anglesmith]

Oh I understand rehabbing on the fly, but a lot of posters are making this deal out to solving all the problems on the backend and it simply won't, until he's 100% at least. Like you say, the only risk is offering him a contract if he's not 100% by the end of the season. He's a $4 million man right now, so even if we can sign him for $3 million, it's still risky. I'd hate to end up paying Engelland's replacement $3 million, if he doesn't fully recover.

Look, the Flames had a desperate need to bring in a solid #4 defenceman because our options to play there this season have been Wideman and Engelland. Wideman gets exposed there, and Engelland is okay, but is much better slotted on the third pairing.

At the same time, we're also an organization that should not be going out and paying a premium for a rental player who we could very well lose in the summer.

Stone is a guy who has shown the capability to play in the top 6 if paired with a good partner, which he will be here. This allows us to slot our defencemen where they are most effective. The reason this is such a good thing should be pretty evident. Instead of always having a liability pairing if not two, we now should have three effective pairings with defined roles.

 

[King In The North]

To clarify, he's an upcoming UFA meaning this has no implication on the expansion draft?

 

[Anglesmith]

To clarify, he's an upcoming UFA meaning this has no implication on the expansion draft?

I had this clarified for me by MM. Assuming we don't extend him prior to the expansion process, Vegas will have a window to negotiate with him prior to the expansion draft. If they sign him to a contract, he counts as the player taken from our roster.

However, presumably Calgary can also negotiate during that time, so if he wants to stay in Calgary, he would have that option by waiting it out and signing after the expansion draft.

 

[Sparky93]

Really, who said it would solve all our problems on D?

What posters are saying is that Brodie won't have to play with Wideman anymore, which is in itself a win.

And what saying is that may not be an upgrade until Stone is 100%. Stone is far from a defensive specialist, at the best of times.

 

[Anglesmith]

And what saying is that may not be an upgrade until Stone is 100%. Stone is far from a defensive specialist, at the best of times.

Not as far as Wideman, and what we need with Brodie is someone who can keep up more than anything else.

 

[The Gnome]

Oh I understand rehabbing on the fly, but a lot of posters are making this deal out to solving all the problems on the backend and it simply won't, until he's 100% at least. Like you say, the only risk is offering him a contract if he's not 100% by the end of the season. He's a $4 million man right now, so even if we can sign him for $3 million, it's still risky. I'd hate to end up paying Engelland's replacement $3 million, if he doesn't fully recover.

I agree, that is a perfect summation of what the risk is at this point. As the cost to acquire was peanuts, especially if we can recoup a pick or two going into the draft.

 

[Sparky93]

Look, the Flames had a desperate need to bring in a solid #4 defenceman because our options to play there this season have been Wideman and Engelland. Wideman gets exposed there, and Engelland is okay, but is much better slotted on the third pairing.

At the same time, we're also an organization that should not be going out and paying a premium for a rental player who we could very well lose in the summer.

Stone is a guy who has shown the capability to play in the top 6 if paired with a good partner, which he will be here. This allows us to slot our defencemen where they are most effective. The reason this is such a good thing should be pretty evident. Instead of always having a liability pairing if not two, we now should have three effective pairings with defined roles.

I understand what you're saying but a lot the ideas of Stone being good with Brodie aren't based on current level of play. Stone isn't 100%, and has actually been quite awful this year. He may improve, but I think bringing him in before the deadline is more of a try out, than a fix.

I really hope it works out but I also don't blame Brodie's brutal season on Wideman, so time will tell.

 

[Sparky93]

Not as far as Wideman, and what we need with Brodie is someone who can keep up more than anything else.

Agreed, but again that's last years Stone, not the guy that isn't 100%. Time will tell, I really hope I'm way off base with my concerns and he works out great. I'm just not planning the parade yet!

 

[Anglesmith]

Agreed, but again that's last years Stone, not the guy that isn't 100%. Time will tell, I really hope I'm way off base with my concerns and he works out great. I'm just not planning the parade yet!

Players aren't constants for one year, then change suddenly in the off-season. Stone had reconstructive knee surgery in the off-season. The expectation is that he would get better over the course of the year. According to Sniper, that is indeed the case.

I wouldn't plan the parade, but we paid a 3rd round pick. Why would the expectation be some kind of huge acquisition for that price?

Of the options:

-Do nothing
-Pay a 3rd for Stone
-Pay a premium for a no-risk option

The middle option is by far the one that makes the most sense for the Flames.

 

[Sparky93]

Players aren't constants for one year, then change suddenly in the off-season. Stone had reconstructive knee surgery in the off-season. The expectation is that he would get better over the course of the year. According to Sniper, that is indeed the case.

I wouldn't plan the parade, but we paid a 3rd round pick. Why would the expectation be some kind of huge acquisition for that price?

Of the options:

-Do nothing
-Pay a 3rd for Stone
-Pay a premium for a no-risk option

The middle option is by far the one that makes the most sense for the Flames.

Agreed it's a no risk move, that could work out.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

like Duclair I've been a huge fan of Mrazek going back to his WJC years (where both were elite). And like Duclair I don't change my opinions on players because of one year of struggles. Especially if they are young. Young players struggle. Occasionally GMs are stupid enough to consider trading them. That's when people should go after them.

That's why we should have gone after Drouin last year, Mrazek earlier in the year. That's why we should go after Duclair before he starts to score again.

Edit: although I think Treliving asked about Drouin and the ask back was Bennett. And Duclair was the main piece on an offer for Dougie. So maybe Treliving is trying but the GMs just value these players way higher than people on HF.

Depends on the ask I suppose. Again, I support targeting Duclair. If it's a mid to late 1st I'm still not entirely happy but easier to swallow than a top 15 pick.