Post-Game Talk: Flames/Sharks/7/Saddledome/SNW/960/The Numbers Don't Lie

[Yung Rotini]

I just shake my head that contract. Why did he ever get a 3 year deal after coming off a year where he had to win a contract from a PTO?

You look at some of Treliving's moves and he starts to seem fallible.

There's this thing, called the cap floor. You kinda need to at least be above it. Main reason why Engelland and Raymond got that much money.

I have more a problem with Raymond's contract than with Engelland's at this point. The way Engelland is playing this season, I have no problem paying him $2.9M.

 

[saillias]

There's this thing, called the cap floor. You kinda need to at least be above it. Main reason why Engelland and Raymond got that much money.

I have more a problem with Raymond's contract than with Engelland's at this point. The way Engelland is playing this season, I have no problem paying him $2.9M.

I didn't mention the cap hit though but the term.

"Reaching the cap floor" was a very short term concern that is now costing us. And I'd rather be hovering around the floor if we're a non-competitive team than facing the prospect of becoming a cap crunch team next year. As mentioned in this thread already Granlund will probably go down soon.

 

[Master Bill]

There's this thing, called the cap floor. You kinda need to at least be above it. Main reason why Engelland and Raymond got that much money.

I have more a problem with Raymond's contract than with Engelland's at this point. The way Engelland is playing this season, I have no problem paying him $2.9M.

Don't think that was the reason they were paid that money, and a GM who does that shouldn't be working in the NHL.

Raymond was given that money and term simply because he had a great season putting up 2nd-line numbers.

 

[Rangediddy]

Anyone have a gif of Johnny scoring his OT goal?

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Ahh the optical illusion that is Mason Raymond. Sometimes he's good, sometimes he's bad, incredibly unbeknownst to all he's average. Difference this year he's somehow even more depressingly average on a team that's in last place, that really has no tangible need for another soft small speedy winger that struggles to provide consistent production, or even possession.

Raymond is actually having a good season for us this year, he's looked consistently better than he did last year when I was cringing at his every shift. The one thing that isn't there for him are the goals and assists. But the chances have been there, just not the finish which is encouraging for a guy who historically has been a streaky pure finisher. Whereas last year when if wasn't on a hot streak he was useless, he's doing a lot more to stay in the lineup during a cold streak and we know this is a guy who can put up a goal in six-seven consecutive games once he sees one go in the net.

I think he's found a bit of a home on the Backlund/Frolik line. I still have my concerns about the line being on the soft side of things but they showed in the last few games that they play well off each other and can cycle the puck effectively.

 

[Yung Rotini]

Don't think that was the reason they were paid that money, and a GM who does that shouldn't be working in the NHL.

Raymond was given that money and term simply because he had a great season putting up 2nd-line numbers.

Okay. And that was a relatively good contract based on player who just put up good second line numbers. How could Treliving, or really, anyone, could have known he would be this awful? He's been worse than he was in his last year in Vancouver.

 

[Calculon]

At the time, there were good reasons why Raymond was signed. Cammalleri was gone and Gaudreau was still largely an unknown quantity - where the goals where going to come from was a valid concern.

That being said, it's a results orientated business. Treliving and co. greatly underestimated the depth of the Flames system and they've admitted as much. Raymond, particular the term, was a mistake, even if the reasons were logical at the beginning. A two year, 4 to 4.5M per contract would have been so much better in hindsight.

And for what it's worth, the Flames didn't need both Raymond and Engelland to reach the floor, just one of them. But, both were acquired to fill on-ice needs more than just cap concerns; those being offence and truculence respectively.

 

[Unlimited Chequing]

There's this thing, called the cap floor. You kinda need to at least be above it. Main reason why Engelland and Raymond got that much money.

I have more a problem with Raymond's contract than with Engelland's at this point. The way Engelland is playing this season, I have no problem paying him $2.9M.

Don't think that was the reason they were paid that money, and a GM who does that shouldn't be working in the NHL.

If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure Treliving said at the time of the signing that Engelland is getting what he's getting because defencemen were going to be at a premium so he was expecting to overpay a bit. Coupled with the fact that we were expected to be a pretty crappy team, you were going to have to pay extra to get those FA's.

 

[Master Bill]

Okay. And that was a relatively good contract based on player who just put up good second line numbers. How could Treliving, or really, anyone, could have known he would be this awful? He's been worse than he was in his last year in Vancouver.

I think it started last year when Glencross was earning more ice time than Raymond despite the former having really bad games, Glencross was rarely demoted and consistently given top 6 minutes. Also the emergence of Bouma last year having a great season and taking that #2 LW spot later in the year probably killed all confidence in Raymond. He's shown that when he's confident, he can play a good game but last year he really didn't seem to be confident in his game.

I actually don't think he's a terrible player, he just needs some confidence to do things he used to do before. It's not like he doesn't have the speed and work ethic anymore to not do those things.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Raymond is actually having a good season for us this year, he's looked consistently better than he did last year when I was cringing at his every shift. The one thing that isn't there for him are the goals and assists. But the chances have been there, just not the finish which is encouraging for a guy who historically has been a streaky pure finisher. Whereas last year when if wasn't on a hot streak he was useless, he's doing a lot more to stay in the lineup during a cold streak and we know this is a guy who can put up a goal in six-seven consecutive games once he sees one go in the net.

I think he's found a bit of a home on the Backlund/Frolik line. I still have my concerns about the line being on the soft side of things but they showed in the last few games that they play well off each other and can cycle the puck effectively.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on MayRay this year.

 

[tmurfin]

If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure Treliving said at the time of the signing that Engelland is getting what he's getting because defencemen were going to be at a premium so he was expecting to overpay a bit. Coupled with the fact that we were expected to be a pretty crappy team, you were going to have to pay extra to get those FA's.

Add that to the fact that both players were expected to be "rebuild fillers", and would be gone by time we were ready to be a playoff team. I think that's the biggest thing, they were overpaid, but both contracts were signed with the future in mind. Although, Engelland is earning his contract right now imo.

 

[Unlimited Chequing]

Add that to the fact that both players were expected to be "rebuild fillers", and would be gone by time we were ready to be a playoff team. I think that's the biggest thing, they were overpaid, but both contracts were signed with the future in mind. Although, Engelland is earning his contract right now imo.

Exactly. It's easy to criticize when you have the benefit of hindsight. Not their faults when many of the key components of our future stepped up much sooner than expected.