Post-Game Talk: Flames @ Sharks (2/11/16)

[Hatrick Marleau]

At least when Martin Jones lets in bad goals or plays bad, he takes responsibility for his play. I think even on that one Stalock let in from center ice, he still didn't take responsibility for letting it in.

 

[hohosaregood]

I guess all things considered, the vast majority of the Sharks games have been pretty fun/wildly entertaining to watch. Save for December and that one game against the Coyotes where we started talking about fast food.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

At least when Martin Jones lets in bad goals or plays bad, he takes responsibility for his play. I think even on that one Stalock let in from center ice, he still didn't take responsibility for letting it in.

"Well the net is 4x6 ft, or 24 ft2. I only cover about 16 ft2 and the puck is only .20 ft2. You can't expect me to stop every shot from center ice."

- Alex Stalock.

 

[WTFetus]

What do you expect him to say? Hang himself on a cross?

Especially for goaltenders...any goaltender who thinks he is a problem, is a problem. Even vocalizing that is bad; Stalock has to pretend that he was Patrick Roy out there.

Remember how Nabokov would only criticize himself after the Sharks were eliminated?

That's a load of bull. Goaltenders call out their bad games all the time; Niemi most definitely did. So did Jones.

 

[hohosaregood]

That's a load of bull. Goaltenders call out their bad games all the time; Niemi most definitely did. So did Jones.

If you're a real star goalie, you call out your defense like Nabby did.

 

[19sharks19]

"Well the net is 4x6 ft, or 24 ft2. I only cover about 16 ft2 and the puck is only .20 ft2. You can't expect me to stop every shot from center ice."

- Alex Stalock.

LOL, that's awesome. Let me add;

"ummmm"
(scratching head, eyes wide open, shakes head, scratches had again, slaps palm over his eyes and forhead,,,,,),,,,"WTFudge ?!?!"

 

[DarrylshutzSydor]

I remember that. Wingels had a good start in October and turned into beast mode in November. All goals were 5v5. Sure wish that beast in Tommy would return permanently.




Importance of size will increase as the NHL adjusts their goal tender padding rules like they did for the leg pads. Some of the goalies have significantly out of proportioned upper body padding, they look like autobots. Crawford comes to mind, but so does Stalock.




Let's look at the individual stats for those two players, Marleau and Ward:

Marleau's +/- is -17 which is the worst on the team
Marleau's CF% is 48.6 which is ranked at 18 out of 23 on the team
Marleau's FF% is 50.2 which is ranked at 17 out of 23 on the team

Ward's +/- is -11 which is ranked 4th worst on the team
Ward's CF% is 50.4 which is ranked 12th out of 23 on the team
Ward's FF% is 52.0 which is also ranked 12th out of 23 on the team


So, the stats back up what DystopianTierney stated about Marleau and Ward not being shutdown players. None of those stats are respectable for shutdown player in the league, and only Ward's CF% and FF% stats are decent.

I post player stats in the GDT so we all can look at them and use them for the player evaluations we post here.

Point well made.

 

[nabbyfan]

The problem for me in this game is the 4th goal against....when you could reasonably be considered in the bottom 3 of the 60 goalies on an NHL roster, you need to stay in the crease and just stop the puck. Absolutely no fancy stuff, just stop the damn puck.


When you're able to stop more than 3/4 of wrist shots from the top of the circle, maybe then you can start going out of the crease and flopping around. But if the coaching staff is going to continue to play Stalock, I would like them to let him know that if you're going to charge out, fall down, and give someone basically an empty net to shoot in, you aren't going to play.

It's not acceptable to ice a backup goalie that roams around the defensive zone like he's the second coming of Martin Brodeur with a sub .900 SV%, that the fan base and likely team has absolutely no faith in.

 

[hockeyball]

Yah I cannot picture the Sharks exiting the trade deadline without acquiring a backup. If Jones goes down, this team is totally done. Sad because stalock should be fine, but he's just been brutal this season. Sucks to give up assets for something like that, but they are going to have to.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

The problem for me in this game is the 4th goal against....when you could reasonably be considered in the bottom 3 of the 60 goalies on an NHL roster, you need to stay in the crease and just stop the puck. Absolutely no fancy stuff, just stop the damn puck.


When you're able to stop more than 3/4 of wrist shots from the top of the circle, maybe then you can start going out of the crease and flopping around. But if the coaching staff is going to continue to play Stalock, I would like them to let him know that if you're going to charge out, fall down, and give someone basically an empty net to shoot in, you aren't going to play.

It's not acceptable to ice a backup goalie that roams around the defensive zone like he's the second coming of Martin Brodeur with a sub .900 SV%, that the fan base and likely team has absolutely no faith in.

If he stays in the crease and doesn't try to cut the angle, he probably gets scored on anyway since he doesn't cover enough net to justify staying in the crease in that situation. He's in a bad spot either way. Still though, how do four guys converge on two and leave Backlund that wide open with that much space and time?

 

[nabbyfan]

If he stays in the crease and doesn't try to cut the angle, he probably gets scored on anyway since he doesn't cover enough net to justify staying in the crease in that situation. He's in a bad spot either way. Still though, how do four guys converge on two and leave Backlund that wide open with that much space and time?

If coming out to the top of the Blue paint isn't enough to take away the angle, maybe he shouldn't be playing in the NHL. How many goals have we seen Stalock concede where the shooter had an empty net while Stalock is laying on the other side of the ice because he charges out and way overcommits, but fails to either block a pass or the shot.

I know not all of the goals given up last night were not his fault, but im personally tired of watching Alex give up goals that have no business going in on an NHL goalie on a regular basis. It's completely deflating and I can't imagine that DW isn't at least kicking the tires on a replacement. You should be able to play your backup against one of the worst teams in the division...the Sharks lost a point because of it.

There's no way you can say you're comfortable going into a potential playoff run one injury away from icing one of the worst goalies in the NHL on a daily basis. At some point, the stats don't lie.

 

[do0glas]

If he stays in the crease and doesn't try to cut the angle, he probably gets scored on anyway since he doesn't cover enough net to justify staying in the crease in that situation. He's in a bad spot either way. Still though, how do four guys converge on two and leave Backlund that wide open with that much space and time?

How does anyone in this league score? Defensive miscues most of the time. That's why goalie is a position. If one were to observe the defense in front of jones and stalock and came to the conclusion that there was a big disparity in play I'd say there was some serious confirmation bias going on. Otherwise jones would likely be sporting a 920 at least.

So based on that either jones is truly amazing in that our crappy defense is being held together by him or our defense is pretty good and stalock has some clear issues to work on.

You can't be a small goalie in this league and not compensate with great crease movement and covering the bottom of the net.

 

[Hangemhigh]

Nope. They're just as good in them as they were in '92.

Stalock going with the Jarmo Myllys tribute this season.

 

[Hangemhigh]

Worth mentioning is that Wingels has been phenomenal since being put on that Couture line. With two skilled guys in Couture and Donskoi, he's able to do the things he does best, which is protecting the puck under pressure and retrieving it on the forecheck. He's been really effective and almost reminds me of two years ago when he had his 15 goal season.

He has looked pretty good. Hope he keeps on going as he can be an excellent 3rd liner or maybe a borderline 2nd liner.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If coming out to the top of the Blue paint isn't enough to take away the angle, maybe he shouldn't be playing in the NHL. How many goals have we seen Stalock concede where the shooter had an empty net while Stalock is laying on the other side of the ice because he charges out and way overcommits, but fails to either block a pass or the shot.

I know not all of the goals given up last night were not his fault, but im personally tired of watching Alex give up goals that have no business going in on an NHL goalie on a regular basis. It's completely deflating and I can't imagine that DW isn't at least kicking the tires on a replacement. You should be able to play your backup against one of the worst teams in the division...the Sharks lost a point because of it.

There's no way you can say you're comfortable going into a potential playoff run one injury away from icing one of the worst goalies in the NHL on a daily basis. At some point, the stats don't lie.

I'm plenty comfortable going into a playoff run with Stalock as a backup. Backups are very often backups for a reason and no team is really prepared to go on a successful playoff run with their backup. That's just a reality of the NHL. I'm not for using assets to upgrade a position that will see little time and yield little results.

How does anyone in this league score? Defensive miscues most of the time. That's why goalie is a position. If one were to observe the defense in front of jones and stalock and came to the conclusion that there was a big disparity in play I'd say there was some serious confirmation bias going on. Otherwise jones would likely be sporting a 920 at least.

So based on that either jones is truly amazing in that our crappy defense is being held together by him or our defense is pretty good and stalock has some clear issues to work on.

You can't be a small goalie in this league and not compensate with great crease movement and covering the bottom of the net.

Yeah but not every defensive miscue is the same and not every defensive miscue is acceptable. Two-on-two against and backing into the high slot is not one of them and neither is four guys back all puck side and nobody taking the forward coming the other side. Jones probably makes that save too because he doesn't have to come out as far as Stalock does.

Just because there is a noticeably worse defensive effort out there when Stalock happens to be in doesn't mean that Jones would be sporting something like a .920 save percentage in contrast. They play marginally better in front of Jones. I don't see how anyone can actually say they play the same...especially when they then say that they're so deflated or have no confidence in front of Stalock. You can't have it both ways on that. They either play differently for various reasons or they play the same and the deflating and confidence is irrelevant. And I would prefer the latter because that's how it should be but it very obviously isn't the case.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

Anyone have any video of the Bennett elbow? That's still bothering me, especially since no one else seems to give a crap about it. Haven't heard anything about supplementary discipline, review, etc.


Also, I continue to be disappointed in the lack of ice time for Tennsyon. Started with TMac and it's continuing with Deboer.

 

[LadyStanley]

Martin expected to play tomorrow after elbow. No concussion protocol required.

Flames recall Ortio from AHL Heat; Ramo to IR.

 

[do0glas]

I'm plenty comfortable going into a playoff run with Stalock as a backup. Backups are very often backups for a reason and no team is really prepared to go on a successful playoff run with their backup. That's just a reality of the NHL. I'm not for using assets to upgrade a position that will see little time and yield little results.



Yeah but not every defensive miscue is the same and not every defensive miscue is acceptable. Two-on-two against and backing into the high slot is not one of them and neither is four guys back all puck side and nobody taking the forward coming the other side. Jones probably makes that save too because he doesn't have to come out as far as Stalock does.

Just because there is a noticeably worse defensive effort out there when Stalock happens to be in doesn't mean that Jones would be sporting something like a .920 save percentage in contrast. They play marginally better in front of Jones. I don't see how anyone can actually say they play the same...especially when they then say that they're so deflated or have no confidence in front of Stalock. You can't have it both ways on that. They either play differently for various reasons or they play the same and the deflating and confidence is irrelevant. And I would prefer the latter because that's how it should be but it very obviously isn't the case.

Listen to what you're saying.

Either the defense is the same in front of both so stalock is just bad (my vote)

The defense is "marginally" better in front of jones...so see first option. If the difference isn't that much then stalock should be over 900.

Or and by your own admission the team isn't confident in him and plays like ****.

These are the options. So...in what world should stalock remain a shark?

 

[Limekiller]

Martin expected to play tomorrow after elbow. No concussion protocol required.

Flames recall Ortio from AHL Heat; Ramo to IR.

I would be shocked if Ramo plays again this season. That looked BAD.

 

[Dicdonya]

Let's look at the individual stats for those two players, Marleau and Ward:

Marleau's +/- is -17 which is the worst on the team
Marleau's CF% is 48.6 which is ranked at 18 out of 23 on the team
Marleau's FF% is 50.2 which is ranked at 17 out of 23 on the team

Ward's +/- is -11 which is ranked 4th worst on the team
Ward's CF% is 50.4 which is ranked 12th out of 23 on the team
Ward's FF% is 52.0 which is also ranked 12th out of 23 on the team


So, the stats back up what DystopianTierney stated about Marleau and Ward not being shutdown players. None of those stats are respectable for shutdown player in the league, and only Ward's CF% and FF% stats are decent.

I post player stats in the GDT so we all can look at them and use them for the player evaluations we post here.

The problem with your stats is that they are the wrong sample size.

Ward-Marleau-Nieto have only been the "shutdown" line since Hertl was put on the top line, and cooch came back. Looking at their stats for the whole year is faulty logic.

Over the last 15 games since they were put together:

Marleau cf% 50.70 (10) ff% 51.15(10) zs% 37.50(13) SATF 180(6) SATA 175(4) SATF/60 50.42 SATA/60 49.02

Ward. Cf% 50.97(9) ff% 50.97(11) zs% 38.33(12) SATF 183(5) SATA 176(3) SATF/60 53.51 SATA/60 51.46

Nieto. Cf% 54.52(4) ff% 55.08(6) zs% 41.35(11) SATF 187(4) SATA 156(7) SATF/60 56.83 SATA/60 47.42

When you average out their numbers, and compare them to the same set of data, for our third line averaged, it looks like this:

Line 2- Cf% 52.06 ff% 52.40 zs% 39.06 SATF 183.33 SATA 169.00 SATF/60 53.59 SATA/60 49.30
Line 3- Cf% 50.91 ff% 52.02 zs% 49.00 SATF 151.00 SATA 145.67 SATF/60 50.68 SATA/60 48.84

So based on all these stats, I see no objective reason to say our 2nd line isn't playing perfectly fine as a shutdown line. Each player is above even in corsi and fenwick, while getting horrific zone starts, they are creating a ton of shots, and not allowing any noticeably large amount of shots against.

The only place our second line is having trouble right now, is scoring. The question though is why. Is it maybe because they are playing tough comp, and starting almost two thirds of the time in their D zone? Maybe it's because nieto, or ward, or Marleau suck at scoring ES? Or maybe it's a little bit of both, plus some bad luck?

Who knows, but what I do know, is that as a whole, that line is doing just fine in a shutdown role, and don't see any reason to mess with it, or any line really, except bringing Brown back for Zubrus, no joke.

 

[19sharks19]

Yah I cannot picture the Sharks exiting the trade deadline without acquiring a backup. If Jones goes down, this team is totally done. Sad because stalock should be fine, but he's just been brutal this season. Sucks to give up assets for something like that, but they are going to have to.

1000% agreed. 2 shoddy seasons of his play is by far enough to witness.

Worth mentioning is that Wingels has been phenomenal since being put on that Couture line. With two skilled guys in Couture and Donskoi, he's able to do the things he does best, which is protecting the puck under pressure and retrieving it on the forecheck. He's been really effective and almost reminds me of two years ago when he had his 15 goal season.

Great point. Just bodes well for depth.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Wingels play has improved with the emergence of Donskoi and a healthy Couture. He is able to do the things he's good at, like go to the net, bang on the boards, and cycle. That play he made on Smid last night was fantastic.

 

[19sharks19]

I am really loving the addition of Donskoi on the team. The player of the newer blood I was most anxious to see on the squad and, he hasn't failed to impress. Let's just hope he continues on the same road moving forward

 

[Sharksfan83]

If he stays in the crease and doesn't try to cut the angle, he probably gets scored on anyway since he doesn't cover enough net to justify staying in the crease in that situation. He's in a bad spot either way. Still though, how do four guys converge on two and leave Backlund that wide open with that much space and time?

Are you defending that 4th goal? If you are, 1) you're arguing for the sake of arguing or 2) You've just lost all credibility on what you post.

This is not the first time Stalocks come charging out of the crease and ended up letting in an ENG because hes lost his edge and fell over. In fact, if someone would make a youtube video of Stalocks gaffes, he would probably be a youtube star.

 

[Juxtaposer]

What I'd say if I were in Stalock's position is "The whole team, including me, had a really bad 1st period, but we really tightened it down after then. I felt more comfortable as the game went on and I think we did a really good job clawing our way back into the game. I need to be better, but I'm really proud of the guys and I look forward to redeeming myself whenever I start next."

Overly idealistic? Duh.

But the point is that I have no problem with Stalock's attitude. No matter how good or bad you are, it's hard to be consistent when you're playing once or twice a month. While it's not an excuse per se, since all other backups have the same deal, it's still understandable why he might be frustrated. I think part of his problem is mental for sure. Maybe he feels like the team doesn't have confidence in him. But at the end of the day he just isn't good enough, and that's sad because he's a really great dude and he's been through a lot to get to where he is.