Rumor: Flames offer for Eichel: Tkachuk, 1st round pick, former 1st, and 2 prospects

[TheNumber4]

Nobody is debating healthy Eichel is better than Tkachuk, I am saying your assessment of his personality is crap.

Is it though? Do you think Tkachuk takes a team friendly discount to help the Flames win? Do you think he’s looked up to in the dressing room? Do you think that the Flames internal beef over the style of how they wanted to play had nothing to do with Tkachuk? If the Flames don’t max out his earnings do you think he wouldn’t hold out?

 

[TheNumber4]

That image includes nearly 2 entire seasons of Coleman playing for New Jersey. Also don't act like Tuch is on some dumpster team either, Vegas has been the all around best team in the west for a while now

Different teams. Different usage. Different line mates. Different opponents. Take all of that into account and get back to me with better charts.

 

[HarrySPlinkett]

True but Daryl Sutter would never approve of the trade since Coleman is a Sutter type player.

You can’t trade a player ten games into a six year contract. Nobody would sign with Calgary without a full NMC for a decade.

This already happened to Sutter when he traded Ference to Boston in the Stuart deal.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Is it though? Do you think Tkachuk takes a team friendly discount to help the Flames win? Do you think he’s looked up to in the dressing room? Do you think that the Flames internal beef over the style of how they wanted to play had nothing to do with Tkachuk? If the Flames don’t max out his earnings do you think he wouldn’t hold out?

Tkachuk literally already took a team friendly discount to help the Flames win, so yes I think he is capable of taking a more team oriented deal then asking for something like 11M like Marner.
Of course he's looked up to in the dressing room, he wears an A for a reason.
Calgary built a Sutter team not a Tkachuk team, don't get the two confused they are quite different.
Hold out? I expect he will sign a deal before arbitration if thats what you mean, it literally can't go past that.

 

[TheNumber4]

Tkachuk literally already took a team friendly discount to help the Flames win, so yes I think he is capable of taking a more team oriented deal then asking for something like 11M like Marner.
Of course he's looked up to in the dressing room, he wears an A for a reason.
Calgary built a Sutter team not a Tkachuk team, don't get the two confused they are quite different.
Hold out? I expect he will sign a deal before arbitration if thats what you mean, it literally can't go past that.

3 years wasn’t that friendly. It ensures he gets his a very high QO. And sets the stage for him to hit UFA as soon as possible, unless overpaid off the bat. Marners a bad comp tho, no one can be that greedy. A on his chest based on his ability, doesn’t say much about what actually goes on in that dressing room though, but of course not much is known, but the little that has squeeked out hasn’t made him look good.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Different teams. Different usage. Different line mates. Different opponents. Take all of that into account and get back to me with better charts.

Your right, thats on me. I forgot that Tuch played a much more sheltered role in Vegas averaging around 58% offensive zone starts over the previous 3 seasons, his most common linemate in those 3 years being Paul Stastny, followed by Max Pacioretty, Cody Eakin, and then Nic Roy. Definitely had a way tougher time than Coleman and his average 56% defensive zone starts, and his most common linemates being Barclay Goodrow, Yanni Gourde, Travis Zajac, and Nikita Gusev

 

[flamesforcup]

Tkachuk literally already took a team friendly discount to help the Flames win, so yes I think he is capable of taking a more team oriented deal then asking for something like 11M like Marner.
Of course he's looked up to in the dressing room, he wears an A for a reason.
Calgary built a Sutter team not a Tkachuk team, don't get the two confused they are quite different.
Hold out? I expect he will sign a deal before arbitration if thats what you mean, it literally can't go past that.

Im a Flames fan and have to disagree. Tkachuks contract was not team friendly...

 

[TheNumber4]

Your right, thats on me. I forgot that Tuch played a much more sheltered role in Vegas averaging around 58% offensive zone starts over the previous 3 seasons, his most common linemate in those 3 years being Paul Stastny, followed by Max Pacioretty, Cody Eakin, and then Nic Roy. Definitely had a way tougher time than Coleman and his average 56% defensive zone starts, and his most common linemates being Barclay Goodrow, Yanni Gourde, Travis Zajac, and Nikita Gusev

Now tell me the overall effect of zone starts on CF, xGF etc etc. League wide so you can create a control. Then apply to the charts. The also figure out which defenceman played behind each.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

3 years wasn’t that friendly. It ensures he gets his a very high QO. And sets the stage for him to hit UFA as soon as possible, unless overpaid off the bat. Marners a bad comp tho, no one can be that greedy. A on his chest based on his ability, doesn’t say much about what actually goes on in that dressing room though, but of course not much is known, but the little that has squeeked out hasn’t made him look good.

So by your logic, Brayden point took a very selfish deal?

Calgary doesn't give letters to players because they are good, they arent Edmonton. Notice Gaudreau has never worn a letter yet has been the best player on the Flames for 7 years.
"the little that has squeeked out" is just the only stuff you choose to look at, it is pretty well known that Tkachuk is quite liked in the dressing room, that can be proven by most social media posts of the team. The guy was 1 of 4 team members that attended to Gaudreau's wedding 2 months ago

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Now tell me the overall effect of zone starts on CF, xGF etc etc. League wide so you can create a control. Then apply to the charts. The also figure out which defenceman played behind each.

You seem so knowledgeable on this stuff why don't you prove my charts and stats wrong, all you've done is spout off stuff in an attempt to undermine the proof I've provided. If you want to debate bring evidence, until you do my numbers are correct

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Im a Flames fan and have to disagree. Tkachuks contract was not team friendly...

a 7Mx3 year deal for a cap-strapped team in a market where the other big RFA's made 9.25x5, 10.9x6, 6x4, 7.14x7, 6.75x3, 8.5x5? Yeah I would say it was relatively team friendly when he signed it

 

[TheNumber4]

So by your logic, Brayden point took a very selfish deal?

Calgary doesn't give letters to players because they are good, they arent Edmonton. Notice Gaudreau has never worn a letter yet has been the best player on the Flames for 7 years.
"the little that has squeeked out" is just the only stuff you choose to look at, it is pretty well known that Tkachuk is quite liked in the dressing room, that can be proven by most social media posts of the team. The guy was 1 of 4 team members that attended to Gaudreau's wedding 2 months ago

The term was the same with Point and Tkachuk. But Point was better than Tkachuk when signing that deal, and already showed to be a clutch play off performer going PPG in his young career. And still came cheaper. Plus it seems there was an informal agreement that he’d get paid as cap freed up and he did get paid. So I do consider Points deal to be team friendly whilst Tampa also agreeing to do the right thing and pay the man.

Im sure the Flames top guys get along somewhat. Tkachuk and Johnny are probably good buds. Still doesn’t speak to his leadership really though. But I will digress ad say that the locker room heat and disruption that was a short while ago doesn’t tell the whole story either.

 

[TheNumber4]

You seem so knowledgeable on this stuff why don't you prove my charts and stats wrong, all you've done is spout off stuff in an attempt to undermine the proof I've provided. If you want to debate bring evidence, until you do my numbers are correct

Your using numbers as proof. It’s on you to provide the evidence. I’m providing a personal opinion, that doesn’t require the same. But if we do want to talk numbers, a good proxy to value a player is what actual NHL teams with much better evaluations and more sophisticated tools than evolving hockey would pay for that player. Tuch signed 4.5 as a RFA, where only one team could sign that deal. Coleman garnered 4.9 as a UFA where 32 teams could bid for his services. If both were offered up on the trading block, who do you think gets the higher return?

Players don’t get scouted publicly at all once drafted so this is a bit of a stretch. But the eye test consensus of scouts nationwide had Tuch ranked as a middle 1st talent. And Coleman as a late 2nd round talent 3 years prior. I see the same still, but you can disagree. I think the league GMs would evaluate similarly, and when Tuch signs his UFA deal we can revisit this as that’s pretty conclusive proof that doesn’t exist right now.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

The term was the same with Point and Tkachuk. But Point was better than Tkachuk when signing that deal, and already showed to be a clutch play off performer going PPG in his young career. And still came cheaper. Plus it seems there was an informal agreement that he’d get paid as cap freed up and he did get paid. So I do consider Points deal to be team friendly whilst Tampa also agreeing to do the right thing and pay the man.

This is such an extremely pessimistic POV there's really no way of arguing it since until he signs he is basically out the doors in your eye's. Is it safe to assume that the same rules applies to Laine, Dubois, Boeser, Barzal, DeBrincat, Meier, Dahlin, Cirelli, and Sergachev for you as well?

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Your using numbers as proof. It’s on you to provide the evidence. I’m providing a personal opinion, that doesn’t require the same. But if we do want to talk numbers, a good proxy to value a player is what actual NHL teams with much better evaluations and more sophisticated tools than evolving hockey would pay for that player. Tuch signed 4.5 as a RFA, where only one team could sign that deal. Coleman garnered 4.9 as a UFA where 32 teams could bid for his services. If both were offered up on the trading block, who do you think gets the higher return?

Players don’t get scouted publicly at all once drafted so this is a bit of a stretch. But the eye test consensus of scouts nationwide had Tuch ranked as a middle 1st talent. And Coleman as a late 2nd round talent 3 years prior. I see the same still, but you can disagree. I think the league GMs would evaluate similarly, and when Tuch signs his UFA deal we can revisit this as that’s pretty conclusive proof that doesn’t exist right now.

I did provide evidence, you chose to disregard my evidence with empty words and roundabout sentences, that's all there is to it. If you want to keep discussing this then you can start another thread or DM me but as of right now this is just spamming a thread with extremely off-topic clutter

 

[TheNumber4]

This is such an extremely pessimistic POV there's really no way of arguing it since until he signs he is basically out the doors in your eye's. Is it safe to assume that the same rules applies to Laine, Dubois, Boeser, Barzal, DeBrincat, Meier, Dahlin, Cirelli, and Sergachev for you as well?

I don’t see enough of those players to form an opinion. I have seen a lot of Tkachuk over the last 5 or 6 years. On ice, and off ice. And I’m telling ya, he’s not a character, team glue, guy. He’s very self serving but also wants to win to some extent. Agree or disagree, but I’ve seen enough. And when his contract is up, and you need him to play ball for the good of the team, i don’t think it’ll happen.

 

[TheNumber4]

I did provide evidence, you chose to disregard my evidence with empty words and roundabout sentences, that's all there is to it. If you want to keep discussing this then you can start another thread or DM me but as of right now this is just spamming a thread with extremely off-topic clutter

I’m good with agreeing to disagree. Like I said in my post, we’ll know pretty concretely who’s the better player when Tuch hits UFA. The entirely of League GMs and their respective scouting staffs/analytics staffs (who don’t use lazy Corsi) will come to a market value on Tuch. And mark my words, itll be higher than Coleman which will be fitting of their talent levels.

 

[Fivealive5]

Why are oilers fans so obsessed with the flames lmao

 

[boredmale]

Not sure I would do this if I was Buffalo, Tkachuk seems like the type who will want out of Buffalo in a year or 2 so it's basically a case of going from one problem to another

 

[LongWayDown37]

Assuming Buffalo can get Tkachuk to extend.. that is a lot of money tied up in wingers between him and Skinner. Sabres are going to spend the next decade trying to figure out how to get a franchise center…

 

[BatVader]

Not sure I would do this if I was Buffalo, Tkachuk seems like the type who will want out of Buffalo in a year or 2 so it's basically a case of going from one problem to another

I’d assume Buffalo would flip Tkachuk for more picks and a cheaper player who’s more likely to stay in Buffalo

 

[iginlafan77]

Now tell me the overall effect of zone starts on CF, xGF etc etc. League wide so you can create a control. Then apply to the charts. The also figure out which defenceman played behind each.

You're requiring a lot of proof of their opinion, when it seems your is purely based on subjective opinions on players.

 

[iginlafan77]

I’m good with agreeing to disagree. Like I said in my post, we’ll know pretty concretely who’s the better player when Tuch hits UFA. The entirely of League GMs and their respective scouting staffs/analytics staffs (who don’t use lazy Corsi) will come to a market value on Tuch. And mark my words, itll be higher than Coleman which will be fitting of their talent levels.

When he hits UFA in 2027? I think it's safe to say the cap could be significantly higher. Either way that very likely won't be a comparable

 

[Guttersniped]

Your right, thats on me. I forgot that Tuch played a much more sheltered role in Vegas averaging around 58% offensive zone starts over the previous 3 seasons, his most common linemate in those 3 years being Paul Stastny, followed by Max Pacioretty, Cody Eakin, and then Nic Roy. Definitely had a way tougher time than Coleman and his average 56% defensive zone starts, and his most common linemates being Barclay Goodrow, Yanni Gourde, Travis Zajac, and Nikita Gusev

Because of the Hall trade and injuries, and Blake getting white-hot, the Coleman-Zajac-Gusev line got top line minutes for part of the season. His analytics were nuts in 2019-20 on NJ before the trade, and it was that, plus his goal scoring tear and cheap contract is why he Tampa gave up Vancouver’s 2020 1st and their own 2019 1st round pick for him.

Coleman is very late bloomer though, he didn’t fully breakout until 2019-20 so it’s the 2018-19 season that would be pulling down those numbers. If anything he got used less in Tampa so his numbers took a hit.

Tuch’s numbers take a hit from a down season though. Not sure what comparing a RFA contract to a UFA contract makes sense though.