Fisher Conference Final: Montreal Canadiens vs Montreal Maroons

[seventieslord]

For line with an elite third line glue guy in Armstrong and Harris who is fine as a secondary intangible and offensive player I see no problems with Bowie being a third liner. He's the worst of my centers defensively by far I'm well aware. I needed more offensive punch and took the best offensive player available when I picked, I don't see how he can't be a third liner if put in the right situation. This isn't like last year where I'm trying to pass off Bowie as a second liner.

So where ideally do you think he should be in a lineup?

Pretty much the definition of 2nd line or bust. In a 25 team draft I don't have a real problem with him on a 2nd line where his role is to just score.

Where did the 16% come from?

476 to 411 (their 7 year VsX/Vs1 totals).

 

[ResilientBeast]

Pretty much the definition of 2nd line or bust. In a 25 team draft I don't have a real problem with him on a 2nd line where his role is to just score.



476 to 411 (their 7 year VsX/Vs1 totals).

So if I was to swap Richard and Bowie you'd have no issues with that?

I don't see how it really matters which line they are on, my 2nd line is built to take the more standard third line type shifts

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Pretty much the definition of 2nd line or bust. In a 25 team draft I don't have a real problem with him on a 2nd line where his role is to just score.

.

I mean... Bowie definitely reads like a scoring-line-or-bust player, but to RB's credit, he does have a second line that can take a more defensive role.

 

[seventieslord]

So if I was to swap Richard and Bowie you'd have no issues with that?

I don't see how it really matters which line they are on, my 2nd line is built to take the more standard third line type shifts

I don't know, you put your lines together the way you did for a reason, completely swapping out players with nearly opposite skill sets probably creates more new questions than answering my concern about Bowie.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So if I was to swap Richard and Bowie you'd have no issues with that?

I don't see how it really matters which line they are on, my 2nd line is built to take the more standard third line type shifts

Laviolette does have an option to do this if he wants to change things up:

Smokey Harris - Russell Bowie - Rod Gilbert
Dean Prentice - Henri Richard - George Armstrong

Too crazy? I guess it depends on how GMs view Bowie as a second line centerpiece, and YMMV with that one.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I don't know, you put your lines together the way you did for a reason, completely swapping out players with nearly opposite skill sets probably creates more new questions than answering my concern about Bowie.

I built my second to take heavy starts because Richard and Prentice together are capable of playing that game. Gilbert is there for a little secondary offence.

My third line is built around Bowie, two players whose job it is, to do everything that Bowie can't and get him the puck.

I don't see what the issue is with my third line and it's only just coming up in the conference finals, a few people in the assassinations said it was possibly the best Bowie line built yet for whats that worth.

Like if I'm missing something please tell me, because I don't understand

 

[BenchBrawl]

For starters, I'm in a good mood today, so I'll try to avoid yesterday's spirit if possible.

I'm not particularly high on Frederickson, but you did quote me to make a point, so let me just point out that Frederickson still had six years to play when this article was published - just like Nighbor did, which I noted as a potential reason he didn't get more support. Same would apply to Frederickson.

Also, let's be careful not to value these all-star teams more than they deserve. It's great to get a little glimpse of who certain people gave a 1st place vote to, but there's no depth beyond that. For all we know, Frederickson would have been every contributor's 2nd choice... or maybe they didn't consider him top-10. Who knows? Not us.

One post I made yesterday used that bolded argument in response to RB's post on Fredrickson, but that post is gone.I said that people who voted in 1925 didn't have much historical perspective to go on with, and that in that sense Bowie could be overrated by them.Also, I said that just like today's commentators, the voters could be nostalgic, and given that Fredrickson's career was not over, those teams should be taken with a fair amount of skepticism as a comparison method between Bowie and Fredrickson.

I also said that Fredrickson faced Morenz, the 4th greatest center of all-time, in the SC Finals and beat him.That should count for something, especially if we're going to downplay Fredrickson's competition.

 

[ResilientBeast]

For starters, I'm in a good mood today, so I'll try to avoid yesterday's spirit if possible.That said, there's something else I want to say about deleted posts which is related to seventieslord's post below.



One of my deleted post used that argument exactly in response to RB's post on Fredrickson, but the post got mysteriously deleted along with all the others.I was puzzled why this particular post was deleted, as there was nothing else in it.But anyway, I said that people who voted in 1925 didn't have much historical perspective to go on with, and that in that sense Bowie could be overrated by them.Also, I said that just like today's commentators, the voters could be nostalgic, and given that Fredrickson's career was not over, those teams should be taken with a fair amount of skepticism as a comparison method between Bowie and Fredrickson.

I also said that Fredrickson faced Morenz, the 4th greatest center of all-time, in the SC Finals and beat him.That should count for something, especially if we're going to downplay Fredrickson's competition.

So here you have it.Mods can verify that I did say this, which would have saved seventieslord the trouble.

That shouldn't really count for anything, it was one playoff series. Frederickson also had Jack Walker and Frank Foyston on his team. Walker led the team in goals that series. I'll give him credit, your bio does flatter him greatly in his ability to shadow Morenz. Downplaying Frederickson's competition isn't without reason, the PCHA was very weak in the 20s till it merged with the WCHL.

1917 Stanley Cup Hap Holmes beat Georges Vezina the 10th goalie of all time.

1999 Stanley Cup Ed Belfour beat Dominik Hasek the 2nd (1st) goalie of all time.

One off comparisons like that aren't a good way to measure players

 

[BenchBrawl]

Here's the ESVsX numbers of Benn* and Amonte.I also bolded Anderson because you crapped on him during a comparison (and he doesn't play on the PP), and bolded Armstrong because why not.

*Number might have changed for Benn after the end of the year.

H.Sedin | TML | 646
Bure | TBC | 616
Tanguay | VAN | 608
Turgeon | TBC | 606
D.Sedin | TML | 605
Provost | STK | 604
McKenney | ORI | 593
Getzlaf | ABB | 592
Kovalchuk | SSB | 587
Shutt | TBC | 586
Perreault | AMA | 584
Stamkos | IND | 583
Staal | ORI | 580
Anderson | MTL | 580
Roenick | PIT | 574
Lemaire | BRO | 571
Amonte | MTL | 569
Mullen | STR | 568
R.Backstrom | STK | 566
Goyette | RED | 557
Hodge | MHC | 552
Damphousse | CHI | 548
Toews | MHC | 548
Ciccarelli | TBC | 548
Benn | MTL | 547
Nash | DUK | 544
Keon | SSB | 543
Parise | TMA | 542
N.Backstrom | MHC | 538
Roberts | IND | 537
Middleton | BRO | 536
Kopitar | CHI | 532
S.Smith | STK | 525
Bondra | TML | 521
Litzenberger | MSE | 519
Tkaczuk | TOL | 515
Brind'Amour | STR | 511
Guerin | MSE | 508
Nevin | TMA | 507
Nieuwendyk | IND | 506
Pulford | WLT | 506
Tonelli | HFB | 505
Marleau | SSB | 505
Armstrong | MTM | 503
Martin | MSE | 503
Bergeron | TBC | 500
Muller | STK | 498
Sloan | TML | 496
Larmer | AMA | 494
Tocchet | REG | 494
Hunter | REG | 494
Gare | ABB | 492
Marchand | MSE | 489
Doan | WLT | 482
Naslund | HFD | 481
Giroux | DUK | 479
Simmer | MHC | 476
Andreychuk | MTL | 473
Holik | VAN | 473
Verbeek | AMA | 469
Duff | ABB | 468
Paiment | ABB | 465
Luce | HFD | 465
O'Reilly | MHC | 464
Ramsay | ORI | 464
MacKell | ORI | 463
Nolan | REG | 455
Ellis | VAN | 455
Pronovost | HFD | 454
Backes | IND | 451
Balon | TBC | 451
Berenson | BRO | 448
Hadfield | CSK | 445
Sullivan | MSE | 443
Kerr | WLT | 438
Sutter | TOL | 434
Marshall | CSK | 433
Stanfield | STR | 433
Poulin | ABB | 430
Lemieux | TOL | 429
Toppazzini | MTL | 429
Bridgman | IND | 428
MacGregor | TBC | 428
Tikkanen | BRO | 426
Carbonneau | CSK | 424
Goring | AMA | 424
Mosdell | WLT | 411
McKenzie | TGD | 408
Sanderson | TOL | 408
Kesler | VAN | 407
Sheppard | MTL | 405
Rolston | REG | 400
Marcotte | CHI | 394
Larionov | MSE | 391
Nesterenko | CHI | 389
Bourne | MTM | 388
Graves | STR | 381
Clark | BRB | 378
Lehtinen | ABB | 377
Kasper | DUK | 375
Westfall | CSK | 373
Tremblay | STK | 372
Graham | TML | 368
Madden | AMA | 363
Peca | IND | 357
Pavelich | AMA | 356
Otto | TML | 316
Gainey | MHC | 315
Curry | MTM | 312
Draper | BRB | 306
Jarvis | TMA | 293
J.Roberts | STR | 244

Hard to know where Smokey Harris would end up, but it would be surprising if he's much better than the upper-tier of that list at ES.

Benn and Amonte looks fairly strong here.They were good ES scorers.

In the end, we are comparing their ES production, though I will admit even I still think even-strenght production are not all created equal, and that someone with more star power should still be considered better offensively.But it's still a good overview.

I also wonder why you didn't include the 7 years VsX numbers in your analysis, but that was already covered by others.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Benn is high up because unlike Harris or Armstrong he provides nothing but hits and scoring. I'm actually surprised by Anderson but then again he did play for the dynasty Oilers and wasn't his ES center Messier most of the time?

My third line isn't built for offence entirely, it's job is to get the most talented offensive player on either of our lines the puck and let him do his work.

 

[BenchBrawl]

That shouldn't really count for anything, it was one playoff series. Frederickson also had Jack Walker and Frank Foyston on his team. Walker led the team in goals that series. I'll give him credit, your bio does flatter him greatly in his ability to shadow Morenz. Downplaying Frederickson's competition isn't without reason, the PCHA was very weak in the 20s till it merged with the WCHL.

1917 Stanley Cup Hap Holmes beat Georges Vezina the 10th goalie of all time.

1999 Stanley Cup Ed Belfour beat Dominik Hasek the 2nd (1st) goalie of all time.

One off comparisons like that aren't a good way to measure players

You seem to think I meant to say "Fredrickson beat Morenz, therefore Fredrickson > Morenz" in some vague sense, like I would say "Nadal always beat Federer, therefore Nadal > Federer".Obviously that's not what I mean, but when a player faces one of the greatest of all-time and doesn't look out of place, and actually wins, it gives us a hint.It doesn't mean all his scoring finishes should be bumped up as if he beat prime Morenz at every turn.But it's the equivalent of judging Russian players who played against canadian NHLers.Kharlamov's resume has a lot of mileage on this.

 

[ResilientBeast]

You seem to think I meant to say "Fredrickson beat Morenz, therefore Fredrickson > Morenz" in some vague sense, like I would say "Nadal always beat Federer, therefore Nadal > Federer".Obviously that's not what I mean, but when a player faces one of the greatest of all-time and doesn't look out of place, and actually wins, it gives us a hint.It doesn't mean all his scoring finishes should be bumped up as if he beat prime Morenz at every turn.But it's the equivalent of judging Russian players who played against canadian NHLers.Kharlamov's resume has a lot of mileage on this.

I agree, I just want to make sure that comment doesn't go totally unchallenged.

Your bio and the comments on that series go a long way.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I think we both agree

Offensively

Bowie > Frederickson

Everything else

Bowie < Frederickson

I tried to balance out the line and make it not a total liability at even strength by adding two guys to cover for him.

 

[BenchBrawl]

The Canadiens' 3rd Line Speed vs. the Maroons' 3rd Pairing

About my third line, one major issue I see the Maroons having is dealing with its speed.Seriously, the Maroons' third pairing will get exposed badly against Fredrickson's and Amonte's speed.

From the bios, just ctrl-f'ing "speed" and "fast", I found:

Liapkin:

A crafty stick handler and puck carrier, Liapkin had a relatively soft puck-moving style and, unlike many of his defense teammates, wasn't very impressive speed wise.

Lowe:

An agile though not fast skater

About Fredrickson's and Amonte's speed, for completeness:

Fredrickson:

Fredrickson is an Icelander. He was captain of the 1920 world's champion Canadian Olympic team. A tall, broad-shouldered, powerful lad, he is gifted with extreme speed, and flashes about the ice at a terrific pace, with long, powerful strides

with Frank Fredrickson with his speed

or the flashing speed net-wards that is Fredrickson's forte

His dash, speed and daring were sensation of the hockey world

It arrived on two legs, the powerful and speedy limbs of Frank Fredrickson

snaked the puck from under their very feet, lost it, recovered by sheer speed

Detroit Cougars' Center Man, Who Plays Here Tomorrow, Has Stamina, Speed and Skill

He combines stickhandling ability with his speed

Frank Fredrickson was about as fine a player as I've ever seen. He was fast, shifty, smart, and had a wonderful shot

Frank Fredrickson, Icelandic Cyclone, turned in his best game on local ice since turning pro. He notched three goals and missed others simply because he was skating so fast that he was on the top of the goal before he knew where he was.

Amonte:

Before you play with him, you just think that he's very talented and fast and everything and (don't) really get to appreciate how much he digs and grinds and competes.

Tony Amonte is fast.When he's on the ice, it's best if you don't blink, because you could miss something amazing. Tony Amonte is really fast. If there's a breakaway to be had, Tony Amonte will get it. Tony Amonte is really, really fast. That's why he leads the NHL with 22 goals.

and oh yeah, he can skate really, really fast.

He just became a much better finisher this season. Amonte started to gain a rather infamous reputation in recent years as someone who never buried enough of the chances that his speed produced.

The speedy right winger

 

[jarek]

How often do you see your 3rd line playing against his 3rd pairing? I can't imagine it would happen often enough to matter..

That being said, you're probably right that it might be an issue in transition. I just have a very hard time imagining a scenario where RB's 3rd pair and your 3rd line are on the ice at the same time in RB's offensive zone..

 

[BenchBrawl]

How often do you see your 3rd line playing against his 3rd pairing? I can't imagine it would happen often enough to matter..

That being said, you're probably right that it might be an issue in transition. I just have a very hard time imagining a scenario where RB's 3rd pair and your 3rd line are on the ice at the same time in RB's offensive zone..

I will not address any point you bring up.

 

[ResilientBeast]

How often do you see your 3rd line playing against his 3rd pairing? I can't imagine it would happen often enough to matter..

That being said, you're probably right that it might be an issue in transition. I just have a very hard time imagining a scenario where RB's 3rd pair and your 3rd line are on the ice at the same time in RB's offensive zone..

On top of that, what forward line is out there?

Firsov, Taylor, Prentice, Richard, Bowie, Harris, Curry, Bourne are all speedy enough and with the exception of Bowie will be able to back check fine enough to harass the players in transition.

So yes my bottom pairing isn't the fleetest of foot, but such a comparison ignores 60% of the skaters I have on the ice.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Just dumping this here.The post is from 2011 in the Top 60 Defensemen Project.

Bill Gadsby was NOT close to Doug Harvey or Red Kelly

1. All three men played at the same time, and Gadsby's Hart consideration is not close.

Harvey: 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 5th, 5th, 7th, 9th
Kelly: 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th (plus an 8th and 9th as a forward)
Gadsby: 6th

Note that we don't have top 10 voting for every season, so we may be may be missing some more 6-10 place votes, but we have the top 5 for every season.

2. Gadsby NEVER finished ahead of peak Harvey or Kelly in Norris voting without injuries being a factor

Gadsby was a 1st Team All Star 3 times (55-56, 57-58, 58-59), so I'll focus on those three seasons.

In 1955-56, Gadsby finished ahead of Red Kelly in Norris voting. (numbers in parenthesis indicate first half/econd half voting).

1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 156 (78-78)
2. Bill Gadsby, NYR 59 (16-43)
3. Red Kelly, Det 44 (17-27)
4. Tom Johnson, Mtl 21 (14-7)
5. Fern Flaman, Bos 11 (5-6)

However, it's now widely known that Kelly spent 20+ games in 55-56 as a forward to compensate for injuries up front. Kelly even received a single vote as an All Star Left Wing that season. We've seen at least one article at the time speculate that Kelly lost the 1st Team D bid because of his time spent at forward (Does anyone have a link to it?)

Check out Hart voting from 55-56:

HART: (324/324, 142-146)
1. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 94 (53-41)
2. Tod Sloan, Tor C 86 (14-72)
3. Lorne Worsley, NYR G 72 (55-17)
4. Red Kelly, Det D 25 (14-11)
5. Doug Harvey, Mtl D 11 (6-5)
6. Johnny Wilson, Chi LW 10
7. Gordie Howe, Det RW 8
T8. Andy Bathgate, NYR RW 6
T8. Maurice Richard, Mtl RW 6
10. Ted Lindsay, Det LW 5
11. Terry Sawchuk, Bos G 1

Kelly finished 4th in Hart voting and Gadsby didn't receive a single vote. I think it's fair to assume that the main reason Gadsby finished ahead of Kelly in Norris and All Star voting in 55-56 was because of Kelly's time at forward. Kelly was a better and more valuable overall hockey player that season.

1956-57 was Kelly's last season as a postseason all-star.

In 1957-58, Kelly missed 9 games due to injury. Check out Norris voting from 1957-58:

NORRIS: (324/324, 156-153)
1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 153 (75-78)
2. Bill Gadsby, NYR 119 (55-64)
3. Fern Flaman, Bos 17 (13-4)
4. Ron Stewart, Tor 13 (10-3)
5. Marcel Pronovost, Det 7 (3-4)
T6. Red Kelly, Det 3
T6. Tom Johnson, Mtl 3

In 1957-58, Gadsby finished ahead of Kelly in Norris voting, but by then Kelly was no longer a truly elite defenseman.

In 1958-59, Gadsby finished ahead of Harvey in Norris voting.

NORRIS: (324/324, 154-145)
1. Tom Johnson, Mtl 92 (38-54)
2. Bill Gadsby, NYR 67 (31-36)
3. Marcel Pronovost, Det 58 (34-24)
4. Doug Harvey, Mtl 48 (30-18)
5. Fern Flaman, Bos 34 (21-13)

However, 1958-59 was a bit of an off year for Harvey, as he missed 9 games with injuries and wasn't himself when he did play. Harvey's teammate Tom Johnson picked up the slack and won the Norris over Gadsby. 1958-59 was the only season in which Gadsby finished ahead of Harvey in Norris voting, and it was due to Harvey's injuries that resulted in an off-season for him.

Conclusion: Bill Gadsby was the third best defenseman of his generation that peaked in the 1950s, but he was not close to Harvey or Kelly.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Dark Shadows on Doug Harvey vs Bobby Orr.

Bolded are mines.

This debate is getting a bit too testy a little early don't you think?

I am just going to throw a quick comment in, and then ill leave this thread before it gets any worse.

Here is how it is. I watched both players play. Harvey is the greatest defensive defenseman I have ever seen play. There are instances where I would consider Orr just as valuable defensively, and he had all the tools of vision and even more speed, and the ability to completely stop an opposing powerplay singlehandedly.

But overall, Harvey was the best I have ever seen defensively. A wizard. I have little doubt that if you put the best danglers in the game against Harvey one on one that he would pick their pockets and transition the puck up ice. His ability to control the tempo of a game was also unmatched. Its hard to imagine what his +/- would be like, but it certainly would be among the best ever, with his ability to control games 5 on 5.

The guys I have immediately following him on the defensive end of the spectrum are a tie between Serge Savard and Rod Langway, with the Lidstrom's, Bourque's and Chelios' coming within the top 5-10.

But the posts I have seen here are misrepresenting Orr as well. Orr is also in that top 5-10 category, maybe just outside of the top 10(I don't know unless I make a list), and Orr could have been top 2 had his focus been on that end of the game instead of being more valuable by, well, scoring unlike any other defenseman could.

Orr minimized quality chances against, using his positioning to steer guys to the outside and wide, ruining their shots and blocking their passes. When they did try to pass through him, he would stuff those passes and then take the puck up the other way on a rush. He would dive to the ice to block shots, and played with maximum effort every shift, controlling the tempo of the game. He was strong along the boards, and physically controlled players without putting himself out of position.

The only, ONLY reason he is not top 2 is that his rushing sometimes, albeit rarely, put him out of position. Orr's speed got him back 95% of the time to make an outstanding defensive play. Most of those I consider ahead of him defensively rank thus because they played safe stay at home, outlet style passing without deep pinching, thus minimizing their

I saw a few comparisons to Paul Coffey in this thread, which are completely off base. Coffey used his speed like Orr true, but Coffey was nowhere near him defensively. He might get chippy in the corners like Orr, but he lacked Orr's ability to control the play without the puck while there, and Coffey was near useless in front of the net. He played the puck instead of the man way too often and often had a blank "What do I do" look on his face when he did not have the puck. Not as bad a Phil Housley, but not worthy to be mentioned with the greats defensively.

Orr did not need to "Mature defensively" as Canadiens1958 put it. He was already there.

Posting the worst game in his career, and a completely off base example is just wrong and a simple attempt to detract from the greatness that was Bobby Orr. That would be like me posting Nick Lidstrom's terrible -4 game from a few years ago and using it as an example of what he is like all the time. Completely misleading.

We have uploaded multiple Bobby Orr games. I suggest you watch them.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=593861


And to the original question......Neither and both. Some defensemen still rush the puck today, albeit none as well as Orr, and others play the safer transition game offense of Harvey, although none as well.

But there is absolutely no question that the better defenseman was Bobby Orr.

 

[ResilientBeast]

That post on Gadsby would have been great had I claimed he was anywhere near Harvey

 

[BenchBrawl]

That post on Gadsby would have been great had I claimed he was anywhere near Harvey

I can present the information I want, and it doesn't have to be related to anything you're saying.Obviously I'm not going to dump 59897 posts like that because it would bury the discussion, but a couple is fine as far as I'm concerned.

 

[ResilientBeast]

ESVSX

Amontee 569
Benn 547
Frederickson ???
Toppazzini 429
Andreychuk 473
Sheppard 405

vs

Smokey Harris ???
Russell Bowie ???
George Armstrong 503
Bob Bourne 388
Vladimir Shadrin ???
Floyd Curry 312

2423 (with 5 players) vs 1203 (with 3 players) For this gap to be closed Shadrin and Harris would need to have scores of at least ~500 if for simplicity sake we say Bowie ~ Frederickson though Bowie would be higher, how much is very much up in the air. Harris is probably around there, but there is no way Shadrin is IMO. So for sure the Habs have an offensive advantage in the bottom 6.

Intangibly, I start to sway back towards my team (shocker), Armstrong could slot into most teams top 6s and most GMs wouldn't bat an eye, he was that good all around. I've dug up more on Harris adding a little bit more to what we've had on him and he does seem to have all around skill certainly matches up in that department well with Benn IMO.

My fourth line is playing the exact same minutes as yours, and I don't really know how to compare them, Toppazini got to play 2nd line for the Bruins while, Curry was stuck behind Boom Boom and The Rocket, which could start to explain the gap between the two of them. Shadrin and Sheppard, I don't have a clue how to do that.

And there's Bourne vs Andreychuk, correct me if I'm wrong Andreychuk got likely significantly more ice time and opportunity to score at ES?

Jamie Benn last season 2.78 Pts/60 minutes
Every season Benn averaged ~20 minutes per game as his teams top line LW. This series he's being dropped in minutes by 7. For example if Benn played that much with this rate his scoring would drop off to about 50 pts/season.

My bottom line has two extremely low scorers even by this series standards, but they are definite factors at even strength Curry being a renowned shadow and Bourne being a swiss army knife. These two have the right skill sets to be factors at even strength.

 

[ResilientBeast]

*Adjusted Size

Montreal Canadiens

Hatcher: 6'5", 235
Weber: 6'4", 232
Harvey: 6'2", 217
Watson: 6'1", 205
Boucher: 6'1", 204
Green: 6'0", 220

Average - 218.8 lb

Montreal Maroons

Clapper: 6'6", 230
Patrick: 6'3", 225
Gadsby: 6'3", 210
Lowe: 6'3", 210
Mantha: 6'2", 213
Liapkin: 6'2", 212

Average - 216.7 lb

Doing this holy **** was Clapper a monster, there's no real size mismatch here, and I've shown that my guys were plenty physical

Now lets look at top 9 forwards and see

Montreal Canadiens

Trottier 6'0" 205
Elias 6'1" 190
Geoffrion 5'11" 190
Modano 6'3" 210
Thompson 6'3" 215
Anderson 6'2" 200
Frederickson 6'4" 220
Benn 6'2" 210
Amonte 6'0" 200

Average - 204.4 lb


Montreal Maroons

Taylor 6'3", 205
Firsov 5'11", 184
Iginla 6'1", 210
Richard 5'9" 180
Prentice 6'1, 185
Gilbert 5'11", 200
Bowie Who knows, but not tall
Harris 6'3", 200
Armstrong 6'3", 204

Average - 196 lb over 8 players but will shrink with Bowie

*If there are any math mistakes forgive me I did it on my phone's calculator

 

[ResilientBeast]

Just dumping this here, the best offensive player in this series

"Cyclone" Taylor, the star center of the Vancouver club of the Pacific Coast Hockey association, has been voted the all-around individual championship of the PCHA, for the 1917-18 season, according to an announcement by Frank Patrick, president of the organization.

The official scorers of Seattle, Vancouver and Portland voted on the most valuable player in the league and Taylor was the unanimous choice. "Cyclone" is far ahead of his nearest rival in scoring honors and will probably maintain an edge through the final series next week.

Taylor's defensive play was also exceptionally strong. Last season Frank Foyston of the Seattle club was voted the most valuable individual in the league. Another important point in Taylor's favor was the fact that not once during the season was the star sent from the ice for violation of rules.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=QfQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5317,6152753&hl=en

Five Original Coast League Players Left

In the intervening years many hockey players have flashed across the hockey horizon, there have been stars and near stars and fans have glimsed "Cyclone" Taylor greatest of all puckchasers...

Without Taylor a lot of the class would be missing from the coast organization/ The Cyclone is 31 years of age. He looks older, but he's still there with speed and stickhandling and knows all the tricks of the trade. He had been playing hockey for twenty years over half of which has been spent in senior company, and today he is without peer in the puck chasing sport.

9.3.1918 - Spokane Daily Chronicle:

"Cyclone" is far ahead of his nearest rival in scoring honors and will probably maintain an edge through the final series next week.

Taylor's defensive play was also exceptionally strong.

Taylor for the first ten of twelve minutes of the game, gave one of his finest displays in the coast hockey, outplaying the entire Seattle team and having possession of the rubber for about three quarters of the time.

Taylor at times held the puck for several minutes towards the end of the game, skating all over the ice with the Ottawas in pursuit. He finally collided with Darragh and was knocked out. After a five minute rest Taylor jumped back and again began to play rings around his former teammates. The Ottawas handed out stiff punishment but Taylor was far too fast for them.

Of Taylor himself, Frank has written: "Taylor was the ultimate hockey player. There'll never be another like him. He was blessed with the complete skills, quite apart from a unique excitement he generated every time he stepped onto the ice. I watched him very closely, and some of our ideas, such as creating the two blue lines to open up the center-ice area for passing, were inspired by his marvelous style.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Just to bring this back up

VsX - Best 7 years

Taylor - ???
Firsov - ???
Iginla - 86.7
Richard - 85.2
Prentice - 67
Gilbert - 83.1

322 with 4 players accounted for, the two missing are the best and a top 3/4 offensive player in this series (Taylor and Firsov)

Trottier - 93.7
Elias - 78.9
Geoffrion - 89.9
Modano - 81.5
Thompson - 82.6
Anderson - 72 - Though with no PP time his ESVSX is higher

498.6 with all 6 players accounted for

The difference is 176.6 meaning Taylor and Firsov combined need to average 88.3 to surpass the Canadiens offensively. I think that it is reasonable to give the Maroons the edge in offence in this series.

Trottier is all around awesome, Elias is a good two player and a good complimentary offensive piece in a draft this size. But does Geoffrion bring anything besides offence? His bio doesn't make him sound anything special physically, defensively or skating wise from some digging in the HOH threads.

Geoffrion was the weakest skater of the three. Geoffrion admits in his biography that his skating was not the best. Mahovlich and Bathgate played center pre NHL and some in the NHL.

...

Defensively Mahovlich was the best of the three. Geoffrion at times was held back by his skating. Bathgate did not seem to buy into the defensive mindset in Toronto.
In the playoffs, the few times that the Rangers made the playoffs he was a bit of a defensive liability.