Fisher Conference Final: Montreal Canadiens vs Montreal Maroons

[BenchBrawl]

Why The Canadiens Should Win this Series

It should be said that the Maroons is a solid team.The reason I think the Canadiens should win is that they have even fewer and smaller weaknesses, and not because the Maroons is a weak team.

1) Coaching - Arbour will crush Laviolette.This is made worst by the fact that the Canadiens is not a team that you can beat by "matching up" against because the talent is distributed (more than the average team).

2) Stronger defense, and especially stronger defensemen to control the flow of the game and thus transition.More physical too.The Canadiens have a stronger 1st and 2nd pairing.

3) Doug Harvey - Subset of 2), but still important enough to deserve a category on his own.The Maroons have no #1 defenseman, and this is their biggest weakness (along with coaching), whereas Montreal have the 2nd best defenseman of all-time.

4) The Canadiens is one of the only team with a comparable center line to the Maroons.This cancels an advantage both teams usually have.

5) Special Units - I feel like the Canadiens have superior special units overall.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Why The Canadiens Should Win this Series

It should be said that the Maroons is a solid team, and that their weaknesses are not that big in the grand scheme of things.The reason I think the Canadiens should win is that they have even lesser and smaller weaknesses, and not because the Maroons is a weak team.

1) Coaching - Arbour will crush Laviolette.This is made worst by the fact that the Canadiens is not a team that you can beat by "matching up" against because the talent is distributed (more than the average team).

2) Stronger defense, and especially stronger defensemen to control the flow of the game and thus transition.More physical too.

3) Doug Harvey - Subset of 2), but still important enough to deserve a category on his own.The Maroons have no #1 defenseman, and this is their biggest weakness (along with coaching), whereas Montreal have the 2nd best defenseman of all-time.

4) The Canadiens is one of the only team with a comparable center line to the Maroons.This cancels an advantage both teams usually have.

5) Special Units - I feel like the Canadiens have superior special units overall.

1) How much of an advantage is coaching really? Babcock was beaten by Trotz having the better coach isn't necessarily a death knell for the other team like you imply. My team fits my coach well and that's what should matter.

2) My lacking of a "#1", yes I don't have an elite top tier guy like yourself how both my top pairing guys are worthy of being lower end number ones here. the HOH list has Gadsby at 21 and Clapper at 24 which by very definition would be #1s. Yes my bottom four is also weaker than yours but please don't try and spin my top pair of as weak.

3) Wow Harvey guess with him on the team no one should've beaten the 50s Habs in the playoffs huh?
(Oh wait they lost twice during Harvey's prime)

4) Comparable while still being worse, the Cobalt Silver Kings had a better center spine than you. Your team is strong down the middle no doubt, but my 2C is a definite 1C in a draft this size. So yes comparable in that yours is strong but it's plain old weaker than my own. So no the advantage isn't cancelled in the slightest. Trottier is better all around but Taylor absolutely murders him offensively. Richard is better in every single way when compared to Modano AINEC. Bowie vs Frederickson is hard to compare but much like you I'll take my guy.

5) Shocker you feel you have stronger units. You have the advantage on the PK I will concede but I can't see how you have the advantage on the power play when the only winger of note you have offensively is Geoffreon. Firsov, Iginla and Gilbert are all stronger offensively than any winger you have besides Boom Boom.

 

[BenchBrawl]

1) How much of an advantage is coaching really? Babcock was beaten by Trotz having the better coach isn't necessarily a death knell for the other team like you imply. My team fits my coach well and that's what should matter.

Coaching is very important and is a big advantage for the Canadiens.I agree that having the better coach doesn't automatically translate into a win, but having the better coach and the better defensive group is a pretty strong edge.

2) My lacking of a "#1", yes I don't have an elite top tier guy like yourself how both my top pairing guys are worthy of being lower end number ones here. the HOH list has Gadsby at 21 and Clapper at 24 which by very definition would be #1s. Yes my bottom four is also weaker than yours but please don't try and spin my top pair of as weak.

I don't think I spinned your 1st pairing as weak, but it is weaker than mine.

3) Wow Harvey guess with him on the team no one should've beaten the 50s Habs in the playoffs huh?
(Oh wait they lost twice during Harvey's prime)

I don't know what to respond to this.

4) Comparable while still being worse, the Cobalt Silver Kings had a better center spine than you. Your team is strong down the middle no doubt, but my 2C is a definite 1C in a draft this size. So yes comparable in that yours is strong but it's plain old weaker than my own. So no the advantage isn't cancelled in the slightest. Trottier is better all around but Taylor absolutely murders him offensively. Richard is better in every single way when compared to Modano AINEC. Bowie vs Frederickson is hard to compare but much like you I'll take my guy.

I think Fredrickson is better than Bowie if only because of the competition he faced.Also, my center line is more complete and homogeneous than yours, which again eases Arbour's job of outcoaching Laviolette.

5) Shocker you feel you have stronger units. You have the advantage on the PK I will concede but I can't see how you have the advantage on the power play when the only winger of note you have offensively is Geoffreon. Firsov, Iginla and Gilbert are all stronger offensively than any winger you have besides Boom Boom.

First, Geoffrion plays the point on the PP, reuniting the greatest PP pairing of all-time in Harvey-Geoffrion.

Second, I'm not sure that Rod Gilbert is a better PP player than say Elias or Thompson.I have no idea how strong a PPer Firsov was, but I assume he was easily better than Elias and Thompson.OTOH, who is the net presence on your 1st unit? Am I missing something? You also seem to think Andreychuk is not a strong PPer.Just look at his PP numbers on h-r compared to say Iginla.

On the 2nd unit, Henri Richard is not a very good PP player as it was not his role IRL.He's a notorious ES player.I'm not sure what to think of your defense, but I feel safe saying Weber-Boucher is much better than Patrick-Liapkin.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Why the Maroons should win this series

1) Raw offensive depth and talent. As I mentioned in my rebuttal, the Habs have a strong center spine and while that helped them work their way through their division it is still worse than mine. Taylor is a gamebreaking offensive talent who is without peer on the Canadiens. Firsov, Iginla, Bowie, Richard and Gilbert pile on and make this offensively a landslide. Good thing the Habs have Harvey or this would be a blowout.

Taylor 102.44 (This only accounts for Taylor from 28-34 and misses ton of prime season)
Iginla 86.7
Firsov ???

189.44 short the second best offensive player on my line

Trottier 93.7
Geoffrion 89.9
Elias 78.9

262.5 with all members accounted for

Firsov would be higher than the 73.06 difference for sure. And enough to keep this as an advantage however you want to look at it. And as noted above this only accounts for PCHA Taylor from ages 28-34.

Henri Richard 85.2 (Undervalued due to limited PP time)
Rod Gilbert 83.1
Dean Prentice 67

235.3

Mike Modano 81.5
Glenn Anderson 72 (Poor score given the team he was one huh?)
Paul Thompson 82.6

236.1

Without considering Richard's low PP time your team barely squeaks out the edge.

2) Your team spent offence to try and load up on two way players. Which as I said leaves you without game breakers. But there isn't a defensively awful player in my top 6. Hell even Taylor has some reference to backchecking and everyone thought him to be garbage in his own end. The weakest offensive player in our collective top sixes is Dean Prentice who is only 5 points back of your Anderson (lest we compare supporting lineups that might get too depressing the Habs) and he is a far better defensive player. The summary of this point is the Habs lack game breaking offensive fire power outside of their dynamic duo of Trottier and Geoffrion (who are still worse combined than Taylor - Firsov/Iginla)

I'll continue this point need to respond to your post

 

[BenchBrawl]

Why the Maroons should win this series

1) Raw offensive depth and talent. As I mentioned in my rebuttal, the Habs have a strong center spine and while that helped them work their way through their division it is still worse than mine. Taylor is a gamebreaking offensive talent who is without peer on the Canadiens. Firsov, Iginla, Bowie, Richard and Gilbert pile on and make this offensively a landslide. Good thing the Habs have Harvey or this would be a blowout.

Taylor 102.44 (This only accounts for Taylor from 28-34 and misses ton of prime season)
Iginla 86.7
Firsov ???

189.44 short the second best offensive player on my line

Trottier 93.7
Geoffrion 89.9
Elias 78.9

262.5 with all members accounted for

Firsov would be higher than the 73.06 difference for sure. And enough to keep this as an advantage however you want to look at it. And as noted above this only accounts for PCHA Taylor from ages 28-34.

Henri Richard 85.2 (Undervalued due to limited PP time)
Rod Gilbert 83.1
Dean Prentice 67

235.3

Mike Modano 81.5
Glenn Anderson 72 (Poor score given the team he was one huh?)
Paul Thompson 82.6

236.1

Without considering Richard's low PP time your team barely squeaks out the edge.

2) Your team spent offence to try and load up on two way players. Which as I said leaves you without game breakers. But there isn't a defensively awful player in my top 6. Hell even Taylor has some reference to backchecking and everyone thought him to be garbage in his own end. The weakest offensive player in our collective top sixes is Dean Prentice who is only 5 points back of your Anderson (lest we compare supporting lineups that might get too depressing the Habs) and he is a far better defensive player. The summary of this point is the Habs lack game breaking offensive fire power outside of their dynamic duo of Trottier and Geoffrion (who are still worse combined than Taylor - Firsov/Iginla)

I'll continue this point need to respond to your post

What is the methodology used for Taylor's number?

Geoffrion's replacement level score is 98.9, which puts him pretty close to that Taylor number, so in that sense is a "game breaking talent" even if injuries are to be expected.I definitely strongly disagree that Taylor-Firsov/Iginla is better than Trottier-Geoffrion.

I find it funny that you put an excuse besides Henri Richard's score while crapping on Anderson's score.Anderson was a fairly strong ES player (which is how he is used by the Canadiens), and most of his edge comes from his playoff heroics, which the numbers fail to take into account.

Also, despite Bowie, I think my 3rd line is better offensively.You seem to underestimate Frank Fredrickson for some reasons.Jamie Benn is a much better offensive player than Harris, and Amonte is better than Armstrong too.

In any case, given that Montreal has a better defense and coach, it seems clear the Maroons' edge is far from sufficient to reduce the gap.

 

[ResilientBeast]

What is the methodology used for Taylor's number?

Geoffrion's replacement level score is 98.9, which puts him pretty close to that Taylor number, so in that sense is a "game breaking talent" even if injuries are to be expected.I definitely strongly disagree that Taylor-Firsov/Iginla is better than Trottier-Geoffrion.

I find it funny that you put an excuse besides Henri Richard's score while crapping on Anderson's score.Anderson was a fairly strong ES player (which is how he is used by the Canadiens), and most of his edge comes from his playoff heroics, which the numbers fail to take into account.

Also, despite Bowie, I think my 3rd line is better offensively.You seem to underestimate Frank Fredrickson for some reasons.Jamie Benn is a much better offensive player than Harris, and Amonte is better than Armstrong too.

In any case, given that Montreal has a better defense and coach, it seems clear the Maroons' edge is far from sufficient to reduce the gap.

For Taylor it's a total fudge using Dreakmur's consolidated scoring tables

You're wrong Geoffrions 7 year VsX is 89.9

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=117030779&postcount=220

I have a post on Frederickson coming

Cool Benn won a scoring title in a very weak year, Harris tied your boy Frederickson in PCHA scoring after Taylor had passed him prime too

 

[BenchBrawl]

For Taylor it's a total fudge using Dreakmur's consolidated scoring tables

Where can I find Dreakmur's methodology?

You're wrong Geoffrions 7 year VsX is 89.9

I said replacement score, not 7-years VsX score.

Cool Benn won a scoring title in a very weak year, Harris tied your boy Frederickson in PCHA scoring after Taylor had passed him prime too

Tough talk for someone who has Russel Bowie on his team.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I see this series has taken a turn for the worst

 

[ResilientBeast]

Coaching is very important and is a big advantage for the Canadiens.I agree that having the better coach doesn't automatically translate into a win, but having the better coach and the better defensive group is a pretty strong edge.

I don't think I spinned your 1st pairing as weak, but it is weaker than mine.

I don't know what to respond to this.

I think Fredrickson is better than Bowie if only because of the competition he faced.Also, my center line is more complete and homogeneous than yours, which again eases Arbour's job of outcoaching Laviolette.

First, Geoffrion plays the point on the PP, reuniting the greatest PP pairing of all-time in Harvey-Geoffrion.

Second, I'm not sure that Rod Gilbert is a better PP player than say Elias or Thompson.I have no idea how strong a PPer Firsov was, but I assume he was easily better than Elias and Thompson.OTOH, who is the net presence on your 1st unit? Am I missing something? You also seem to think Andreychuk is not a strong PPer.Just look at his PP numbers on h-r compared to say Iginla.

On the 2nd unit, Henri Richard is not a very good PP player as it was not his role IRL.He's a notorious ES player.I'm not sure what to think of your defense, but I feel safe saying Weber-Boucher is much better than Patrick-Liapkin.

1) And having a far stronger offence is a pretty strong edge, someone has to score eventually

2) Never said it wasn't, but saying I don't have a 1D is a total lie

3) Just me being cheeky

4) So you're just biased against the guy for being older. Bowie obliterated everyone in scoring and the biggest one to note would be Tommy Phillips. Read the bio he reads just like a player from a later time just stuck to his guns being an amateur. And lets not start assuming the PCHA that Frederickson played in was anything special.

- Goals: [3rd (20-21), 4th (21-22), 1st (22-23), 3rd (23-24) -- PCHA years]

- Assists: [4th (20-21), 2nd (21-22), 1st (22-23), 2nd (23-24) -- PCHA years]

- Points: [1st (20-21), 3rd (21-22), 1st (22-23), 2nd (23-24) -- PCHA years]

1920-21 - He tied one of my guys Smokey Harris for first. At age 25 he beat a 29 year old Foyston (already 10 years of pro hockey) and Jack Adams. Not exactly stellar company at the top huh? Taylor at this point was injured and 36 I believe.

1921-22 - 3rd behind MacKay and Adams, just a point or two ahead of Foyston and Morris hardly a dominate performance

1922-23 - He erupts beating Mackay, Foyston, Morris etc but at this point the PCHA had begun to play an interlocking schedule with WCHL and the margin of victory shrinks. He does crush the nearest WCHL player in Gagne by 11 points but he did play in the weaker "conference"

1923-24 - This finish is total ********, the WCHL and PCHA played an interlocking schedule and were really two conferences in the same league and this finish isn't even top 5. He gets beaten by Cook, Oliver, Hay, Keats and Duncan

This post by TDMM illustrates my point. Frederickson did well when the PCHA was at it's weakest

Just in 1923 and 1924, I believe (I know it's confusing).

I think the simplest way to think about it is something like this:

mid-late 1910s
PCHA = NHL

early 1920s
PCHA < NHL (the actual start of the PCHA's decline, I'm not 100% clear on)

1922-23/1923-1924
PCHA + WCHL (combined) = NHL.
With PCHA >= WCHL in 1923, PCHA << WCHL in 1924 (we know from the interlocking schedules).

1924-25/1925-26
WCHL/WHL = NHL. (IMO, there is reason to consider the WCHL marginally better, but it's close enough to where we might as well call them equals).

This is from the dishing the dirt thread when I dug up the 1925 MacLeans all time team

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=128120775&postcount=546

C: Taylor, Bowie and Nighbor all top the list, followed closely by Lalonde, then by McGee. This, more than anything, matches ATD/HOH canon. In fact, if you assume two things - 1) that Nighbor, with six seasons still to play, had not completely cemented his reputation, and 2) that in 1925 they understandably lacked the historical perspective we have 90 years later to judge players of Bowie and McGee's generation by a slightly tougher standard - then you could say their assessment of the best centers of the day perfectly matches ours.

I wonder why Bowie got praise, but Frederickson didn't by people who got to see both of them play?
He got one vote same as his contemporaries Duke Keats and Mickey MacKay.

Now he also had the same amount of votes as Lalonde which is ridiculous and obviously some critical thinking is necessary...that said those who saw them both say Bowie was superior and given I've put him on a line that will allow him to strictly think offence I can't see him having issues.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Where can I find Dreakmur's methodology?

I said replacement score, not 7-years VsX score.

Tough talk for someone who has Russel Bowie on his team.

that's a question for him, I just took players who played in the PCHA and scaled them against Taylor it's a fudge

I'm unfamiliar with what that is

Right it's almost like Bowie is revered because he did it 6 times or something? Glad to see that Benn can win the Art Ross and still not make top 10 in Hart voting, what a special and valuable player. It's also cool to note he only started to anything ATD worthy once he got a soon to be ATDer at center

 

[ResilientBeast]

If we're going to trot out advantages like coaching making the difference I'd be remiss if I didn't mention leadership. Seriously the best you could do is Hatcher?

 

[BenchBrawl]

that's a question for him, I just took players who played in the PCHA and scaled them against Taylor it's a fudge

How can you use numbers when you don't even know with which methodology they came from? Seriously?

I'm unfamiliar with what that is

Basically, some sort of PPG VsX

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2203301&page=3

Right it's almost like Bowie is revered because he did it 6 times or something? Glad to see that Benn can win the Art Ross and still not make top 10 in Hart voting, what a special and valuable player

You're being completely ridiculous, which is why I responded on your level.Benn has been one of the best LWer in the game for 4 years.His case doesn't rely on his Art Ross win.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Oh and I'm really curious so I will ask again, who is the net presence on your 1st PP unit? Has anyone of Firsov, Bowie or Iginla played that role? I am unaware.

 

[ResilientBeast]

How can you use numbers when you don't even know with which methodology they came from? Seriously?

Basically, some sort of PPG VsX

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2203301&page=3

You're being completely ridiculous, which is why I responded on your level.Benn has been one of the best LWer in the game for 4 years.His case doesn't rely on his Art Ross win.

Fine assign whatever value you'd like to Taylor at least I bothered to try

then if you look at the other methodoly Hockey Outsider presented which measures based on consecutive seasons he drops to 83.6, because the other methodology ignores injuries and Bernie couldn't help but get injured often. No surprise what methodology you prefer.

If you're going to laugh at my suggesting Bowie is a dynamic offensive player whats the point in calling this an All Time Draft? I understand that concessions need to be made since he player at a more scattered period of hockey but I feel you critique him too harshly

 

[jarek]

Oh and I'm really curious so I will ask again, who is the net presence on your 1st PP unit? Has anyone of Firsov, Bowie or Iginla played that role? I am unaware.

Why does this matter so much? I agree that a PP generally won't be as effective without a strong net presence, but it can still work if there's enough skill, and that Maroons' 1st unit definitely has enough skill.

Anyways, I would think Iginla is combative enough to do it.

From Dreakmur's bio from 1998:

Iginla does his best work in the corners and in front of the net. He is strong, and doesn't mind the trench warfare. In fact, he thrives on it.

A description that correlates with what I remember about him in his prime.

So what was this about forgetting some research now? Didn't take me that long to dig that up..

 

[ResilientBeast]

Oh and I'm really curious so I will ask again, who is the net presence on your 1st PP unit? Has anyone of Firsov, Bowie or Iginla played that role? I am unaware.

By all means try and dig yourself out of the hole with Frederickson while I do that

Edit: Thanks jarek

 

[jarek]

In the same vein of BC chastising people for not knowing about Trottier's shutdown ability, I can't believe BB has questioned the ability of Iginla to play in front of the net on the PP.

 

[ResilientBeast]

2) Stronger defense, and especially stronger defensemen to control the flow of the game and thus transition.More physical too.The Canadiens have a stronger 1st and 2nd pairing.

Also I can't let this stand

While playing with the Hawks, Gadsby established himself as a terrific competitor who was equally adept at leading a rush as he was on the defensive aspects of the game. Bill could be an aggressive player on the ice (a (clean) bodycheck on Tim Horton in 1955 broke the Leafs' player's leg and jaw, almost ending his career) but whose calm demeanour off the ice was a paradox.

In fairness, I must report that Gadsby also got away with mayhem, A Leaf seldom skated over the Detroit blueline without finding of of Gadsby's knees in his lap.[/QUOTE]Source

Lester's husky son packs the kick of a mule in that lightning straight right of his and Eddie never will go anywhere but down throwing hooks a thim..Dit Clapper is the boy to handle the belting [Muzz] and all the latter has to do to get that 210-pounder on his neck is take a poke at his pal Frankie Brimsek, as a couple of the Rangers did Tuesday night in New York..

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...RIqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=J2oFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1327,7196568

The clubs staged a rough preview of the Stanley Cup playoffs. Twice, Dit Clapper and Art Coulter came to blows, and each drew major penalties for the second fisticuffs.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...7g0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=z20FAAAAIBAJ&pg=4337,3936104

Mariucci is fast and rugged but, he should be advised, not so much so that he can slug it out with Dit Clapper, as he was trying to do last until Referee King Clancy intervened, just when that burly Bruin was uncorking his Sunday punch.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...IDFkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=S_gMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3101,418845

While demonstrating a high level of skill both as a defenseman and as a forward, Aubrey "Dit" Clapper became one of the league's most versatile performers. In a career that lasted two decades, he forged a reputation as a tenacious yet honest competitor. He rarely looked for trouble on the ice, but if the game turned rough, he was one of the league's more accomplished pugilists. Throughout his pro tenure, Clapper was a respected leader on the ice and in the dressing room.

"Dit Clapper coasting with apparent ease, through his 20th big league season," noted The Toronto Star in December 1946. "has few if any peers, physically or mentally in the long history of hockey. "While Clapper's longevity isn't unheard of it it hadn't come with hard work...

In 1948 The Hockey News summed up Clapper's approach: "Clapper had a simple creed - he fought his heart out, bounced players around and took the same kind of punishment he dished out. Once the game was over he forgot it all and never held a grudge. That's what made him so popular with other players and fans throughout the entire NHL circuit."

Joe Pelletier:

Sylvio Mantha almost could have been remembered as the man who forever misplaced the Stanley Cup.

Following the 1924 Stanley Cup victory, Sylvio and his Montreal Canadiens teammates were honored by the University of Montreal. Following the reception, Mantha and some teammates headed for owner Leo Dandurand's home to continue the celebrations. However the Model T Ford that Sylvio was driving stalled on a hill. All the players got out to give it a push until the car was started once again.

When the Model T was back in commission, the players jumped back in and headed for Dandurand's house. However they forgot that they placed Lord Stanley's Mug on the curb by the roadside while they were busy trying to revive the vehicle!! It wasn't until they arrived at Dandurand's house that they realized they misplaced the silverware. The players sped back to that hill and much to their relief found the Cup in all its shining majesty sitting exactly where they had left it.

Born in Montreal in 1902, Mantha became a Canadien when he was only 21 years old. He was a fine defenseman as is reflected by his team's successes - five first place finishes and three Stanley Cup championships. A physical player, Mantha, who played forward until he turned pro with the Habs, was paired with Herb Gardiner and the two formed a fantastic defensive partnership. Mantha, one of the all time best defensive blue liners, was twice named to the Second All Star team.

Mantha was named as the player-coach of the Canadiens in 1935-36, but following a poor finish was fired as coach. Mantha moved on Boston to play one final season in the NHL.
In 542 NHL games, Mantha scored 63 goals and 135 points - impressive numbers for a defenseman in the mid 1920s and 1930s. Following his NHL career, he turned to officiating, first as an NHL lineseman and later as a referee in the American Hockey League. He would later turn to coaching amateur teams in his native Montreal.

Sylvio Mantha was elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1960.

From ourhistory.canadiens.com:

A native Montrealer, Sylvio Mantha grew up in St. Henri, a working class neighbourhood a stone’s throw from the Forum. Playing right wing in local amateur and industrial leagues, he attracted the attention of Canadiens General Manager Leo Dandurand, who snapped him up and had the strapping 5-foot-10, 180-pounder in uniform to start the 1923-24 NHL season.

The young forward was converted into a defenseman shortly after breaking in with the Habs. He went on to enjoy a long successful career, establishing the standard of excellence for stay-at-home defensemen for generations to come.

Mantha’s rookie season ended on the best possible note imaginable. He adapted to his new position with ease, thriving in his environment and ended the year as a Stanley Cup Champion.

A tough, strong and mobile defenseman, opposing forwards had no easy way to get around Mantha. Among the NHL’s bigger men, the fiercely competitive Mantha made good use of his size, able to eliminate oncoming threats with a solid hip check. The versatile rearguard also made frequent use of both his fists and stick in the heat of battle.

Mantha played his rock-ribbed game for 13 complete seasons with the Canadiens, missing an average of just one game per year. His tireless efforts and dedication to the team’s success led to Mantha’s appointment as captain to start the 1926-27 campaign. This was a title that, with the exception of one year, he would proudly hold for the rest of his tenure in Montreal.

With younger brother Georges’ arrival in 1928-29, the Canadiens iced one of the NHL’s first and most talented brother acts. They played together for the next eight years, sharing Stanley Cup Championships in 1930 and 1931, with both Manthas leading the charge in the postseason.

While his main charge involved preventing the opposition from scoring, Mantha also found the twine with regularity, scoring 10 goals in 1926-27 and 13 three years later. In 1928, he scored the first-ever goal at the brand new Boston Garden, securing a win for the visiting team.

Adding coaching responsibilities to his plate towards the end of the 1934-35 season, the veteran defenseman served as player-coach until leaving the club following the end of play in 1935-36.

After a brief on-ice return with Boston the following year, Mantha retired for good and devoted much of the next decade to coaching amateur teams in and around Montreal.

Mantha appeared in 538 regular season games over 13 years wearing the bleu-blanc-rouge, scoring 63 goals and adding 78 assists. His 689 penalty minutes secured his spot as one NHL’s best tough guys in the league’s early days.

In 1960, the Hockey Hall of Fame inducted Mantha as an honored member, recognizing his rightful place among the game’s superstars.
Sylvio Mantha passed away in 1974. His name lives on in his hometown, where a local arena is dedicated to his memory.

The man took out Joe Hall

In his earlier days, Patrick was a top-notch defender... never shied away from the rough stuff... a strong skater whose stickhandling ability allowed him to indulge his fondness for the rush... Frank was a standout for teams such as the Montreal Victorias, Renfrew Creamery Kings and Vancouver Millionaires.

He was not the equal of Lester as a player but nevertheless he was a very good defenseman. A rugged and well-built athlete, he did not mind mixing it up with players like Joe Hall. He holds one record that has stood for 50 (now 90+) years, being the only player to score six goals in a game while playing defence... He performed as a regular player himself on the Vancouver team. He was good enough to make the PCHA All-Star Team... In 1915 he decided to devote full time to his official duties. When his team was headed for the championship he could not keep off the ice. He played a few games of the regular schedule and then when Si Griffis broke his leg, Patrick took over his defense position and swept Ottawa in three games, Patrick scoring two goals.

One night Lester went down on the ice under a mass of kicking, struggling players, among them Bad Joe Hall, one of the roughest hockey players of all time. Frank leaned over the prostrate Lester, his eyes focused on a gash on his brother's forehead. "Who did it, Lester?" he asked grimly. "Was it Hall? Never mind answering. I'll take care of him." Actually Lester didn't need any help at all. He was bigger than Frank to begin with. But in less time than it takes to tell the tale Frank had Bad Joe stretched out on the ice, listening to the sweet tune the birdies sing. - New York Times, Nov. 18, 1943

 

[BenchBrawl]

Also I can't let this stand

This doesn't convince me that my defense isn't more physical.It would be a strong rebuttal if I said your defense was soft, which I didn't.My defense is amazingly physical, mostly because of Weber, Hatcher and Green, but also because Harvey and Boucher are tough on top of that.

 

[ResilientBeast]

This doesn't convince me that my defense isn't more physical.It would be a strong rebuttal if I said your defense was soft, which I didn't.

Luckily I'm not trying to convince you first of all and two you said your D was more physical without presenting a case so I went ahead and did it for my team.

 

[BenchBrawl]

In the same vein of BC chastising people for not knowing about Trottier's shutdown ability, I can't believe BB has questioned the ability of Iginla to play in front of the net on the PP.

Honestly, the reason I assumed he wasn't was because given that Iginla was always by far Calgary's best player, it seemed like a waste to park him in front of the net.Too bad for me, I was wrong.

OTOH, Andreychuk seemed better or equal at that than Iginla given his numbers, which rebuts RB's claim.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Luckily I'm not trying to convince you first of all and two you said your D was more physical without presenting a case so I went ahead and did it for my team.

The case is self-evident, and I did present a case on the first page.Actually, it wasn't a case that my defense was more physical, but I offered the information on my defense's physicality.People can judge for themselves.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Honestly, the reason I assumed he wasn't was because given that Iginla was always by far Calgary's best player, it seemed like a waste to park him in front of the net.Too bad for me.

OTOH, Andreychuk seemed better at that than Iginal, which rebuts RB's claim.

He's a strong powerforward he'll be perfectly fine in front of your net. I think my physical defencemen will be fine battling in front of my net should I ever take a penalty.

 

[jarek]

Honestly, the reason I assumed he wasn't was because given that Iginla was always by far Calgary's best player, it seemed like a waste to park him in front of the net.Too bad for me, I was wrong.

OTOH, Andreychuk seemed better at that than Iginla given his numbers, which rebuts RB's claim.

I don't know if Andreychuk was better or not. Iginla was obviously just an overall far more skilled player so even if it's true, I still give Iginla the edge because he'll be able to do other things better..

This idea of putting guys like Henry, Andreychuk, Kerr, etc. on the 1st PP because they were so good at that particular skill is getting far more traction that it deserves, IMO. Yes, those players were great at that one particular thing, but a more skilled player will still have an overall higher impact, especially when it comes to things that aren't that one particular skill.

 

[BenchBrawl]

He's a strong powerforward he'll be perfectly fine in front of your net. I think my physical defencemen will be fine battling in front of my net should I ever take a penalty.

Sure, I think Iginla is fine there.But Andreychuk is better, which rebuts your claim that I had no winger better than any in your group, which was my main point.