Fisher Conference Final: Montreal Canadiens vs Montreal Maroons

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Edmonton
Putting all the uhmm "extracurriculars" aside, you've built an excellent team BenchBrawl and if you go ahead I hope you win the whole thing.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
13,628
Closer look at the Defensive Pairings - or Defense Wins Championships

I wanted to check every pairings, but due to time constraint I will have to ignore the 3rd pairings for now.

I believe the Canadiens have the better 1st and 2nd pairing, making the Canadiens' defense the biggest advantage in the series and the major reason why they should win it.

1st Pairings

Doug Harvey - Shea Weber

vs.

Bill Gadsby - Dit Clapper

I already posted TDMM's post from the defensemen project comparing Gadsby with Harvey and Kelly.You can find it here.

Norris Record + All-Star Team Finishes for pre-Norris era (with a "*")

Harvey: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2*, 2*, 4.
Gadsby: 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4*, 5
Clapper: 1*, 1*, 2*, 4*
Weber: 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 7, 8, 10

Clapper played forward until he was around 29-30 years old, so he should get extra bonus for that, but I question just how good he was as a forward.I just don't think there's anything justifying giving him a big bonus for his forward years.Clapper's peak as a defenseman is very strong but also quite short, mostly due to an injury.Boston won the Stanley Cup in 39 and 41, years in which Clapper finished on the 1st AST.Clapper was strong offensively, defensively and physically.Is it possible this led to some of his injuries? In any case, Clapper's peak occured against somewhat weak competition (end of career Shore, Earl Seibert, Art Coulter, etc...), but since he was such a complete player and won two cups as the #1 defenseman during it, he gets a lot of mileage out of it.But it is 3 very strong years (1*, 1*, 2*) and another strong year (4*), and the rest are question marks.Doug Harvey almost tripled Clapper's defenseman career value alone.There is a strong case to be made that Doug Harvey's career value as a defenseman exceeds the combination of both Gadsby's and Clapper's value.

11 years each exactly as Top 5 Norris finishes (or AST finishes (*) for pre-Norris era) [Edit: Warning: This is just to show that Harvey is way, wayyy better than one of Gadsby or Clapper.No player can be better than two, and as HT18 said, this leads to a dangerous path of taking Gretzky and saying he's better than three 1st line centers combined]

Doug Harvey: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2*, 4
Gadsby/Clapper: 1*, 1*, 2, 2, 2, 2*, 3, 4, 4*, 4*, 5

Harvey's playoff record trumps Gadsby/Clapper's playoff record combined too.Harvey's peak level of play in his 1st finishes was also higher, so if anything, those records at face-value are favorable to the Gadsby/Clapper combo despite them losing that battle.

Obviously that hypothetical combined Gadsby/Clapper player would have a crap ton of longevity outside those elite years, but when comparing players at those levels, that bonus wouldn't count for much.I'm aware that hockey is played on the ice and that Harvey alone can't be better than two defensemen, but thankfully he's supported by Shea Weber.

Shea Weber's 2nd and 3rd finishes in Norris are strong:

2010-2011
Lidstrom: 736
Weber: 727
Chara: 688
Visnovsky: 573
Yandle: 312

2011-2012
Karlsson: 1069
Weber: 1057
Chara: 950
Pietrangelo: 381
Lidstrom: 132

2013-2014
Keith: 1033
Chara: 667
Weber: 638
Suter: 351
Pietrangelo: 304

Weber came close to transform those 2, 2, 3 finishes into 1, 1, 2, in which case his record would look much stronger based on a handful of votes.Obviously this is nitpicking, but it's just to give perspective on how strong Weber's Norris record is.

Weber's Norris record is very close and probably better than Clapper's defenseman AST resume, but Clapper has the playoff heroics (+ the forward bonus) whereas Weber is a playoff no-show (but + more years as a strong defenseman).If you take out Clapper's playoffs heroics, it's not even clear that he's better than Weber (though to be fair, Clapper has a better Hart record, but it was in a time where defensemen received more Hart considerations).But then, the difference between Harvey's playoffs heroics and Gadsby's playoff record is even bigger than the difference between Clapper's and Weber's.As for their Norris/AST record, Weber faced about the same kind of competition as Clapper (Chara = Seibert, end of career Shore = end of career Lidstrom).Also, Weber was good in international competitions, so that's that.All four players are physical players.I think the gap between both teams' 1st pairing is very big.

This is a slamdunk in favor of the Canadiens.Major advantage Canadiens.

2nd Pairings

Derian Hatcher - Georges Boucher

vs.

Frank Patrick - Sylvio Mantha

This comparison is harder do.I'm not an expert on those early guys.

Georges Boucher became a defenseman in 1920-1921, and from what I could find he had a 7 years prime (20-21 to 26-27) where he was a high-scoring defenseman playing in Ottawa.He gradually lost his jump due to leg injuries and became more of a stay-at-home defenseman.He won the Stanley Cup four times (20,21,23,27).Georges Boucher was a great playoff performer, just like his brother Frank.

During his prime, here are Boucher's scoring finishes among defensemen (I included SC wins and Hart voting - take note the Hart was introduced in 23-24, so Boucher lost 3 seasons of potential Hart finishes):

15-16: Played forward/sub (NHA)
16-17: Played forward/sub (NHA)
17-18: Played forward/sub (NHL from now on)
18-19: Played forward/sub
19-20: Played forward/sub
 
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BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
13,628
Putting all the uhmm "extracurriculars" aside, you've built an excellent team BenchBrawl and if you go ahead I hope you win the whole thing.

Thank you, and same for you.The Maroons are a strong team and hard to take shots at.Good luck and no hard feelings!
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,902
3,557
Edmonton
In response to your last post on D, you have the advantage there, I think offensively up front I have the edge, goaltending is a wash. Edge to you in coaching for what that's worth

I'm excited and curious to see what happens
 

Hawkey Town 18

Registered User
Jun 29, 2009
8,244
1,631
Chicago, IL
I'm not saying I disagree with the conclusion of BB's Dman comparison but I really disagree with comparing one player's resume to the combined resumes of 2 players. First, two players are much better than one, and second I think I this leads us down a dangerous path. Following this logic, you could say Wayne Gretzky's resume is better than all 4 centers combined on another team so Gretzky's team holds an advantage at 2-4 center positions. I think we should focus on 1-1 player comparisons.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
13,628
I'm not saying I disagree with the conclusion of BB's Dman comparison but I really disagree with comparing one player's resume to the combined resumes of 2 players. First, two players are much better than one, and second I think I this leads us down a dangerous path. Following this logic, you could say Wayne Gretzky's resume is better than all 4 centers combined on another team so Gretzky's team holds an advantage at 2-4 center positions. I think we should focus on 1-1 player comparisons.

I agree, which is why I said:

I'm aware that hockey is played on the ice and that Harvey alone can't be better than two defensemen, but thankfully he's supported by Shea Weber. *then goes on to talk about Weber*

I should have been more explicit that this comparison was just to show how much better Harvey was than any one of them.I thought about this post a day ago and thought about using Gretzky as a way to warn against such comparison, so good catch.

Edit: I added a warning before the comparison.
 
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