#FireTherrien lives! Habs lose AGAIN 3-1

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yes all true, but they still are weak in the top 6, fix that, price comes back, then we may get on track

Another scorer would be most welcome. I don't think you'll get any disagreement on that.

 

[Nynja*]

I absolutely love how you move back and forth from equating the strength of the forward group to all of our offense 100% when it suits you. It doesn't expose your bias at all.

excuse me? when did I ever say our forwards suck ?

 

[Runner77]

I wouldn't have been. I gotta be honest with you, I thought we'd be okay through this slump. And maybe we would've been with Gallagher. I don't want us investing cash in a backup when we need help elsewhere.

Condon's been good enough to have us win some of these games. I don't blame him for the streak... but he's a backup. Any backup is going to give you average to below average performance. Sometimes you get lucky like NY or Ottawa did, but you can't count on it.

Seems to me it was too long of a stretch to be relying on rookie goalies. On the premise that Condon and Tokarski belong in the AHL, a cheap veteran back-up would have been smart asset management. Who knows, maybe Scrivens is the guy to bridge it until Price is ready.

Being better than he was last year doesn't make him a good coach. It just makes him not as bad.

The comparative was really between the 18-4 start vs. what transpired since. When the team was winning, Therrien was seen as a changed coach.

I was (and still am) happy with the system we've got. Guys are actually skating in with the puck. That's a massive improvement. Line mgmt was better to start the year and has now regressed to what it was.

At the end of the day though... MT always adjusts the wrong way. We go into a slump, what does he do? Does he play the hot center? No. He goes BACK to DD again.

Can't disagree, player deployment is putrid. However, some of it is caused by a domino effect of not having a real no. 1 RW on the team. I'm not even sure we have a player who could be a no. 1 center on most teams.

Right. So look at the past few years with Price in the lineup. Even playing badly we did well. You don't think we can do better with a better system? I do. And that's exactly what we saw to start the year.

I don't know why we did dump and chase man. I only know it's not effective. All the more reason to dump the coach.

Been noticing a lot more dump and chase during the skid. It's like players are afraid of making mistakes. Easier to dump and chase than to take it in and risking a turnover.

I'm more concerned with adding a prime scorer than size or grit. If we add a big scorer we're going to be very tough to beat.

I agree that a prime scorer is sorely missed. But, adding size and grit to your bottom six can also be done at the same time, since it's not as costly to do.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I like Weise, but we're seeing was Tortorella was talking about. He starts to think he's a legit top 6 sniper and stops playing the way that made him successful.

Dale Weise is our 2nd best goal scorer this season. In crucial moments (playoffs, last game) he scored some pretty important goals.

During interviews, as far as I know, the only time he has ever addressed his status in the NHL he's said that he saw himself as a 3rd liner who can chip in on the top 6 when called upon.

I love that Dale Weise, the least of our problems is even brought up at all here, and I love that you hint at the possiblity of Tortorella being right.

I know that we're just firing at everything that moves right now but it would be nice if we retained some sort of logical thought process about things...

Dale Weise is the least of our problems. He scored the game tieing goal against TB ... the only attempt at showing we might still have a backbone... How is he even brought up as potentially even a problem ? Pacioretty has only 4 more goals than him after half a season....

excuse me? when did I ever say our forwards suck ?

Uh, what ?

 

[Runner77]

Dale Weise is the least of our problems. He scored the game tieing goal against TB ... the only attempt at showing we might still have a backbone... How is he even brought up as potentially even a problem ?

He's not a problem, it's all about how he's being used. His complementary scoring as a third liner would be that much more effective. Not his fault that they're using him on the top line, where he doesn't belong. "Because Therrien" strikes again.

 

[Kriss E]

See, I can play this "let's do it the other way"....how about at the beginning of the year we were playing over our head and not what this team is really capable to when other teams get it going? How about analysing the fact that it's easier to have wins at the start of the year when other teams aren't up to par compared to a time of the year when everybody plays hard just before the teams that can't make it starts mailing the 2 points?

Well ya, that's my point. Nobody ever said we were going to go 82-0-0 after our 9-0-0. Even after going 19-4-3, there was still a lot of season remaining. People were optimistic and confident, we stopped dumping the puck at every opportunity and our defensemen moved the puck while joining the rush very well.
But nobody thought Weise was going to finish with 40 goals. If some did I certainly wasn't part of that clique.

Right now, you're doing the same thing except negatively. We're terribly bad. Patches is a perimeter player, Plek is a girl, PK is lost, Markov is old, Eller has no identity, etc.
One side isn't better than the other, both are wrong.

I wouldn't do squat 'cause don't have a lot of confidence in a GM who uses playstation as it's deal making criteria. And then....what's out there to make? What would you make? I'm still waiting....What's out there to make? Who is tradeable for a SIGNIFICANT return. You do have to understand that to improve, it has to mean that what we're bringing has to be better than what you let go. And I'm just so convinced that Galchy will be implicated in a deal that we won't like that I do prefer staying put. Of course, it we make a deal that improves the team...go ahead. I just doubt it.

You're not the GM so it doesn't matter if you have confidence in him or not. We were obviously going into hypothetical.
I have been a critic of Bergevin for his failure to bring in much help for the top 6. It's clear as day he believes a team should be build from the back end forward, and I do appreciate the defensive squad he's established (although it was mostly here before), but he's neglected the top 6.
What I would do is pull the trigger on a trade, offering prospects and picks, all of which would be available.
I can't say who and for what, I don't have an email list of all GMs and get daily messages as to who may be available. Now, I know it's easier said than done and you can always say nobody is available, but over the years, many have been, and we missed out. So there's nothing that leads me to believe nobody is available.

Where did I say that? I even said that with Price back, we will turn this 1-10 to maybe 5-5, maybe even 6-4....or maybe sometimes 7-3. That's what Price is all about. Yep, Pacioretty top scorer who less and less is showign a physical side of his game that is scary in the playoffs. Strong 2-way Plekanec that is always excuses for not bringing the offensive way because poor kid plays against tough opposition. DD in a positive post? Takes some kind of nerves....etc. So yep, we could all see the great of this team....and the bad....but then reality is probably right in tihe middle which in the end....won,t be good enough.

Ya, and maybe even 10-0-0. Not quite sure what's wrong with saying DD can be a good depth 3rd center, and I'm the furthest thing from a fan of his.
It's not just right in the middle. We're not a PO bubble team. We are better. We're a good team, that could be even better if some players were used properly. That falls on the coach. The team itself remains good, whether it's playing well or not is an entirely different question.
Are we good enough to win a cup? Well, I think we definitely need to an another strong forward. After that, winning a cup is very circumstantial. So ya we could be.

Never said it was the worst. Said it's not good enough to progress, to beat the best, and real soon to even compete against up and coming teams. Not every player is bad and yet, funnily enough, you start your "etc." when you clearly know that there's nothing good to say about any other players.

I can say something good about every player on the team, and you can do the opposite. I put an etc because I'm not going to go through the whole team.

We have a good team. We have a good that is terrible at bench and roster management. We are also short of one solid forward.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

He's not a problem, it's all about how he's being used. His complementary scoring as a third liner would be that much more effective. Not his fault that they're using him on the top line, where he doesn't belong. "Because Therrien" strikes again.

Gallagher got injured.... and we already had crappy RW depth...

End result ? Weise plays too much... NEWS AT 11 !!!

This is not even something that should be talked about in any way.

BTW, some more stat for everyone who thinks Weise plays too much - Goals/60 all situations :

Carr 1.64
Gallagher 1.52
Ghetto 1.40
Pacioretty 1.23
Weise 1.15
Galchenyuk 0.94

With underlined players having played between 12 and 22 games instead of the 39 the others have played. Congrats to Carr, Ghetto for having played only 12-14 games and having inflated stats.

Doesn't really look like Weise has played too much. If he has.. it's really not something worth mentioning. Never seen a guy overachieve as much as Weise and be this much on the bubble with fans... it's unbelievable.

 

[Nynja*]

We were winning with DSP in Gallagher's spot with Patch/Plek #1 LW/C
We started losing when Davey was put #1C and Weise put #1RW

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Seems to me it was too long of a stretch to be relying on rookie goalies. On the premise that Condon and Tokarski belong in the AHL, a cheap veteran back-up would have been smart asset management. Who knows, maybe Scrivens is the guy to bridge it until Price is ready.

Well, what do you do? You pony up for a backup? You're still going to get backup level goaltending. I don't think we'd have been any better off to be honest.

The comparative was really between the 18-4 start vs. what transpired since. When the team was winning, Therrien was seen as a changed coach.

Well he was a changed coach and to be fair, he's STILL better than what he was because I haven't seen chip and chase this year. Unfortunately though, his line mgmt has gone back to what it was last year.

The problems with development though... were still there. They were simply overlooked because we were winning. When you're winning like that those kinds of things get ignored. But when you start losing... it looms much larger. How much better off would we be now if we'd given our younger players more responsibility earlier? Those kinds of things catch up to you and when they do...

Can't disagree, player deployment is putrid. However, some of it is caused by a domino effect of not having a real no. 1 RW on the team. I'm not even sure we have a player who could be a no. 1 center on most teams.

Well, this is the problem. We don't know how good Galchenyuk is. Hell, we don't know how good Eller is. We've never given these guys the chances they should've had.

Been noticing a lot more dump and chase during the skid. It's like players are afraid of making mistakes. Easier to dump and chase than to take it in and risking a turnover.

I've noticed tentative play as the slump has gone on but I haven't seen the "dump and chase" that we saw last year.

I agree that a prime scorer is sorely missed. But, adding size and grit to your bottom six can also be done at the same time, since it's not as costly to do.

I'm fine with the bottom six. I think we need another scorer.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

We were winning with DSP in Gallagher's spot with Patch/Plek #1 LW/C
We started losing when Davey was put #1C and Weise put #1RW

Yes, for the 1.5 game DSP was the #1 RW. He scored 2 goals then went on IR for a while....

 

[Nynja*]

Yes, for the 1.5 game DSP was the #1 RW. He scored 2 goals then went on IR for a while....

3-0-1 with Gallagher out. I'm sorry, but you dont mix up all the lines when youre NOT losing. Even in the first intermission when MT mixed up the lines...we werent losing. If you want to disagree with that, then thats your prerogative, but the fact remains that despite Gallaghers injury, we were 3-0-1. Would we have gone on a 2-11-0 skid following Columbus if MT hadnt tinkered with the lines? Who knows...what we do know is that MT tinkered with the lines and our offence went polar vortex cold and were 2-11-0 following it.

As soon as people saw the changed lines, everyone was making comments of why MT is trying to fix something that isnt broken.

 

[Runner77]

Yes, for the 1.5 game DSP was the #1 RW. He scored 2 goals then went on IR for a while....

DSP is off the DL, the team is struggling and he can't crack the lineup. What gives?

 

[Cole Caulifield]

DSP is off the DL, the team is struggling and he can't crack the lineup. What gives?

So... you're saying that having DSP replacing Gallagher with Patch/Plek was an unsustainable plan in the first place ?

 

[Runner77]

Well, this is the problem. We don't know how good Galchenyuk is. Hell, we don't know how good Eller is. We've never given these guys the chances they should've had.

I don't know, seems to me that Eller is more suited as a third line center. Don't like him on wing, he seems less creative and more prone to straight line play. Regardless of position, however, his vision is highly questionable. I like him for what he does in the playoffs but as a regular season performer, he is frustrating -- too many droughts, too much predictability to his game.

 

[Runner77]

So... you're saying that having DSP replacing Gallagher with Patch/Plek was an unsustainable plan in the first place ?

I don't know that he was the answer, given the small sample size, as you mentioned.

My question has more to do with how he can't even be an option for the 4th line right now, which seems odd.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I don't know that he was the answer, given the small sample size, as you mentioned.

My question has more to do with how he can't even be an option for the 4th line right now, which seems odd.

Why can't Price be the back up goalie right now ?

We don't know how injured DSP was... and how much it's impacted his abilities to be a NHLer. He went on IR for a while and they were hoping this would fix his problems and make him able to provide what he was providing earlier this season. But it wasn't the case...

 

[Runner77]

Tony Marinaro about to go on a massive Dale Weise rant after the break. "We got Guy Lafleur on the RW. Well, it's not actually Guy Lafleur.. but he thinks he's Guy Lafleur! And it's not his fault!"

Can't wait to hear what he has to say

edit: Amazing rant

Marinaro is replaying that 10 minute Joe rant. He asked him how come Joe hadn't been heard from in a long time and whether he had been incarcerated.

If I'm not mistaken, Joe posts here and also called last night during the post-game show. He had said that Desharnais is Therrien's son.

 

[Runner77]

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Ever since TSN changed their online player for TSN 690 and doesn't give me the option to switch back to the old version, I can't listen to anything. Damn.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Marinaro is replaying that 10 minute Joe rant. He asked him how come Joe hadn't been heard from in a long time and whether he had been incarcerated.

If I'm not mistaken, Joe posts here and also called last night during the post-game show. He had said that Desharnais is Therrien's son.

We need to start a kick-starter campaign for a DNA test.

 

[lo striver]

Ever since TSN changed their online player for TSN 690 and doesn't give me the option to switch back to the old version, I can't listen to anything. Damn.

how about via tunein radio?

http://tunein.com/radio/TSN-Radio-690-s12472/

 

[Habsawce]

Marinaro is replaying that 10 minute Joe rant. He asked him how come Joe hadn't been heard from in a long time and whether he had been incarcerated.

If I'm not mistaken, Joe posts here and also called last night during the post-game show. He had said that Desharnais is Therrien's son.

That was easily my favourite call last night. I loved it, even talked about it in a thread!

 

[void]

Marinaro is replaying that 10 minute Joe rant. He asked him how come Joe hadn't been heard from in a long time and whether he had been incarcerated.

If I'm not mistaken, Joe posts here and also called last night during the post-game show. He had said that Desharnais is Therrien's son.

That rant was just incredible. I really hope the Habs management heard him.

 

[Runner77]

That rant was just incredible. I really hope the Habs management heard him.

Good thing he made it through that. I hope he's OK.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Watching the Road to the Winter Classic right now

MT: "C'mon guys grind these guys. Grind,grind,grind, grind..."