Final Fantasy 16 (PS5)

[hotcabbagesoup]

Clive is like a male model with that open-chested blouse

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Definately a big weak area for me when I played FF14. I'm curious for 16 though, while I don't expect my Final Fantasy to be an 'exploration' game how does it compare to FF XII? I feel like that hit the right spot for a more modern approach to a JRPG.

It’s a VERY similar style of exploration. The “story dungeons” are rather linear in design but big on spectacle and visuals.

And then you have really big interconnected “zones” with loot and side quests and hunts scattered throughout, which is nearly identical to XII.

 

[Jovavic]

Yep, the world map and how the environments are laid is very much like 12.

Does the game not keep track of your play time? The only thing on the save is the date and time of the save, not how long you've played.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

This is the best Final Fantasy game in a looooong time.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

This is the best Final Fantasy game in a looooong time.

Outside of 14, it’s definitely the most fun and engaged I’ve been in an FF since…sheesh, probably 12.

 

[Nemesis Prime]

Outside of 14, it’s definitely the most fun and engaged I’ve been in an FF since…sheesh, probably 12.

They've really set the bar again.

 

[Tw1ster]

Clive is like a male model with that open-chested blouse

He’s just so cool

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Outside of 14, it’s definitely the most fun and engaged I’ve been in an FF since…sheesh, probably 12.

Definitely my favorite since X, twenty years!

 

[JimmyApples]

Some users are reporting PS5 overheating issues while playing the game.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Holy SHIT. I know i’m going slow but I just finished the first little part with Benedicta (and the 30 min after).

Wowwwwwwwwwwww, yea I didnt see that coming. Game is so f***ing good so far

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Some users are reporting PS5 overheating issues while playing the game.

There is something wrong with that PS5. All the consoles that I have seen in action always stay quiet no matter what game is played.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

There is something wrong with that PS5. All the consoles that I have seen in action always stay quiet no matter what game is played.

Indeed. Also only a very very small amount of people are having issues, so it sounds like a PS5 issue.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Yeah, I have a rather dusty PS5 and it runs quiet as a mouse.

Overheating issues are almost always client side and hardware related.

 

[hotcabbagesoup]

did thisgame use motion capture? the movements of the characters is so human-like.

except for benedikta, she moves weirdly

 

[Jovavic]

did thisgame use motion capture? the movements of the characters is so human-like.

except for benedikta, she moves weirdly

Just had that thought today, about the characters not walking like the sticks of older games

 

[Shareefruck]

Benedikta walks like she's permanently got a wedgie or something. I think they were trying to make it look sexy, but it just does not register that way at all.

 

[Tw1ster]

I’m enjoying this game more than I have any other game in quite some time. It scratches a lot of itches and I truly believe this is exactly what Final Fantasy should be in 2023. Some of the finest voice acting I’ve ever heard in a video game as well. My girlfriend has been asking me to play so she can watch what happens, this is a first haha

 

[Jovavic]

I'm 10ish hours in and so far the percentage of gameplay and cut scenes is spot on, not too long of each before the other shows up

 

[TheDoldrums]

My big complaint so far is the same complaint I've had about the series for decades. You need to go back to the PS2 era to find entries that actually had enjoyable towns and world exploration. I'm ~10 hours in so maybe things change but I doubt it.

There's essentially three phases to the game. Combat, cutscenes and cooldown. I think they nailed the first two so it's still an excellent game, but the last part is really lacking. Historically in Final Fantasy the "cooldown" phase was often exploring towns. World Map -> Town -> Dungeon kind of loop. Exploring towns yourself provides a fun break seeing new things while you subtlety ingest environmental storytelling.

It is not a proper town if:
- There are not buildings to enter
- There are not many NPC's to talk to (proper text boxes, not just overhearing something you can't interact with)

Yet this has basically been the blueprint for Final Fantasy towns since the PS2 era. I hate it.

Now you might say, okay TheDoldrums, it's impossible to make towns the way they were in your memories. In this day and age of HD graphics and 5 year dev cycles, there's no way anyone could make a fully realized Midgar (including reactors, multiple slums, Shinra HQ), Kalm, Junon, Corel, Gold Saucer, Cosmos Canyon, Nibelheim, Rocket Town...I mean that's just towns on 1 disc of Final Fantasy 7 off the top of my head. It's impossible to have that much exploration and NPC laden areas today!

You don't necessarily need to have a huge list of new towns. You just need the ones you do have to be more engaging. Why can we only talk to a handful of people at the Hideaway? Games like Persona, Fire Emblem: Three Houses and the Trails series reuse the same "town" areas all the time, but since they're jam packed with NPC's with constantly changing dialogue, it's always enjoyable to walk through and talk to everyone. It's also a more organic way to learn about the world than looking at encyclopedia entries of lore like FFXVI provides.

We're constantly being told how big the world of Valisthea is but it rarely feels that way while playing because we talk to so few people and see so little of the landscape.

Again, I still love it overall. I'm hard on it because I love the series. I'm interested to see the legacy of this game. I think it might be a big speedrunning game because of how damn good the combat is with all these scenarios that can be replayed for better scores.

 

[Gardner McKay]

My big complaint so far is the same complaint I've had about the series for decades. You need to go back to the PS2 era to find entries that actually had enjoyable towns and world exploration. I'm ~10 hours in so maybe things change but I doubt it.

There's essentially three phases to the game. Combat, cutscenes and cooldown. I think they nailed the first two so it's still an excellent game, but the last part is really lacking. Historically in Final Fantasy the "cooldown" phase was often exploring towns. World Map -> Town -> Dungeon kind of loop. Exploring towns yourself provides a fun break seeing new things while you subtlety ingest environmental storytelling.

It is not a proper town if:
- There are not buildings to enter
- There are not many NPC's to talk to (proper text boxes, not just overhearing something you can't interact with)

Yet this has basically been the blueprint for Final Fantasy towns since the PS2 era. I hate it.

Now you might say, okay TheDoldrums, it's impossible to make towns the way they were in your memories. In this day and age of HD graphics and 5 year dev cycles, there's no way anyone could make a fully realized Midgar (including reactors, multiple slums, Shinra HQ), Kalm, Junon, Corel, Gold Saucer, Cosmos Canyon, Nibelheim, Rocket Town...I mean that's just towns on 1 disc of Final Fantasy 7 off the top of my head. It's impossible to have that much exploration and NPC laden areas today!

You don't necessarily need to have a huge list of new towns. You just need the ones you do have to be more engaging. Why can we only talk to a handful of people at the Hideaway? Games like Persona, Fire Emblem: Three Houses and the Trails series reuse the same "town" areas all the time, but since they're jam packed with NPC's with constantly changing dialogue, it's always enjoyable to walk through and talk to everyone. It's also a more organic way to learn about the world than looking at encyclopedia entries of lore like FFXVI provides.

We're constantly being told how big the world of Valisthea is but it rarely feels that way while playing because we talk to so few people and see so little of the landscape.

Again, I still love it overall. I'm hard on it because I love the series. I'm interested to see the legacy of this game. I think it might be a big speedrunning game because of how damn good the combat is with all these scenarios that can be replayed for better scores.

COULD NOT AGREE MORE.

I haven't played 16 yet but this has been a complaint of mine for a long time.

 

[Shareefruck]

I understand most of that, but why does "There are not many NPC's to talk to (proper text boxes, not just overhearing something you can't interact with)" matter? It's not like in old RPGs, these were predominantly actual back and forth conversations (some were, but it's similarly rare), so isn't the ratio/function essentially the same?

Not going into houses makes more sense/is easier to believe to me logically (which yes, conveniently gives them an out), but it does also remove some of the charm, so it's kind of give and take (and I'd easily take charm over realism).

But yes, the towns are underwhelming in general and in particular I despise all fetch-quest-y side-stuff that they put into games like this (it kind of confirms some of my skepticism about XIV as well).

 

[SettlementRichie10]

I understand most of that, but why does "There are not many NPC's to talk to (proper text boxes, not just overhearing something you can't interact with)" matter? It's not like in old RPGs, these were predominantly actual back and forth conversations (some were, but it's similarly rare), so isn't the ratio/function essentially the same?

Not going into houses makes more sense/is easier to believe to me logically (which yes, conveniently gives them an out), but it does also remove some of the charm, so it's kind of give and take (and I'd easily take charm over realism).

But yes, the towns are underwhelming in general and in particular I despise all fetch-quest-y side-stuff that they put into games like this (it kind of confirms some of my skepticism about XIV as well).

For what it's worth, it's a conscious design decision, or rather lack of focus. The quest design itself is not supposed to grab you, nor are the rewards.

Each side quest is intended to give a small insight into a character, location, or conflict that, when taken in their totality, begin to form a thoroughly lived in and developed world. CBU3 approach their side questing as if it were a worldbuilding datalog. But instead of walls of text and data entries *telling* you about the world, they design simple quests around *showing* you the world. A lot of effort is placed in these side quests to provide well crafted subtext. The motivation to quest is in the motivation to learn more about the world and the relationships around you.

It's the exact same design philosophy applied in XIV, yes. And it's why many people consider some of the side questlines in XIV to be just as good as the main story questline (Dark Knight job questline, the Nier raids questline, Coils questline, etc.).

It's not for everyone, and very much in the language of books rather than games. But a lot of people enjoy it. Again, XIV deploys this kind of writing and questing quite successfully.

Personally, I think a lack of good itemization motivation is missing in XVI, though I believe the quality of the subtext in the writing is right there. But that ties into my wider criticisms of the game's approach to exploration and loot (areas of weakness in XIV, too, but not as glaring due to its built in MMO content). But as far as quest design itself, I'm just not sure what people are looking for with quest design in RPGs in 2023. Virtually every quest in every major RPG boils down to go here, kill this thing, get this item, go talk to that person, okay you're done.

Can you point to a game telling a traditional ludonarrative that deploys the kind of quest design you hold in higher regard? Maybe that will help me understand what you think is missing here (besides thoroughly developed loot and exploration feedback, which I agree is a big problem in XVI).

 

[Shareefruck]

For what it's worth, it's a conscious design decision, or rather lack of focus. The quest design itself is not supposed to grab you, nor are the rewards.

Each side quest is intended to give a small insight into a character, location, or conflict that, when taken in their totality, begin to form a thoroughly lived in and developed world. CBU3 approach their side questing as if it were a worldbuilding datalog. But instead of walls of text and data entries *telling* you about the world, they design simple quests around *showing* you the world. A lot of effort is placed in these side quests to provide well crafted subtext. The motivation to quest is in the motivation to learn more about the world and the relationships around you.

It's the exact same design philosophy applied in XIV, yes. And it's why many people consider some of the side questlines in XIV to be just as good as the main story questline (Dark Knight job questline, the Nier raids questline, Coils questline, etc.).

It's not for everyone, and very much in the language of books rather than games. But a lot of people enjoy it. Again, XIV deploys this kind of writing and questing quite successfully.

Personally, I think a lack of good itemization motivation is missing in XVI, though I believe the quality of the subtext in the writing is right there. But that ties into my wider criticisms of the game's approach to exploration and loot (areas of weakness in XIV, too, but not as glaring due to its built in MMO content). But as far as quest design itself, I'm just not sure what people are looking for with quest design in RPGs in 2023. Virtually every quest in every major RPG boils down to go here, kill this thing, get this item, go talk to that person, okay you're done.

Can you point to a game telling a traditional ludonarrative that deploys the kind of quest design you hold in higher regard? Maybe that will help me understand what you think is missing here (besides thoroughly developed loot and exploration feedback, which I agree is a big problem in XVI).

Honestly, I'd find it a lot more elegant if there just straight up was no stated reward, hunts, or directed instructions involved that framed it as a "quest" to begin with. If it were just conditional dialogue branches dependent on what you've read before from previous interactions, who you talk to, and where you are, and if that all unfolded organically based on what you happened to pursue, with at best subtle clues here and there (that if you miss, then you miss and wouldn't even be aware that you did), the actual walking around and backtracking itself wouldn't really bother me. Treat them like actual mysterious plot threads and secrets to uncover and tug at.

A lot of old games kind of did that, and some straight up crafted side quests as if they were main story that you can unwittingly veer off into. Even a game like Disco Elysium, which technically does have quest logs, is very vague and contextually framed as organic thoughts you have that can be pursued over time rather than tedious directives/challenges with the promise of rewards.

The way that everything is framed as a chore to do just sucks the life right out of it and turns it soulless, IMO (it just has the feeling of being given busywork for the purpose of engagement rather than encouraging real exploration, even if mechanically, the two things may be technically similar). Hell, I would actually even prefer walls of text in a menu encyclopedia giving that context (which I would argue isn't even a bad idea in general, and that XVI's ATL system does really well anyways) over that.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Honestly, I'd find it a lot more elegant if there just straight up was no stated reward, exploration, hunts, or directed instructions involved that framed it as a "quest" to begin with. If it were just conditional dialogue branches dependent on what you've read before from previous interactions, who you talk to, and where you are, and if that all unfolded organically based on what you happened to pursue, with at best subtle clues here and there (that if you miss, then you miss and wouldn't even be aware that you did), the actual walking around and backtracking itself wouldn't really bother me.

A lot of old games kind of did that, and some straight up crafted side quests as if they were main story that you can unwittingly veer off into.

The way that everything is framed as a chore to do just sucks the life right out of it and turns it soulless, IMO. Hell, I would prefer even walls of text in a menu encyclopedia explaining everything (which I would argue isn't even a bad idea in general, and XVI's ATL does that well anyways) over that.

I see a lot of clever subtext in many of these quests. There's a side quest called the Weight of Command that has nothing to do with Clive personally, but thematically it mirrors what his character is beginning to struggle with, as well as serves as strong foreshadowing. There's stuff like this all over the side quests in XIV and XVI. I appreciate that kind of attention to detail in writing, especially video game writing (which is often sophomoric at best). My education background is comparative literature, so I'm always on the lookout for subtext and theme. It elevates drugstore fiction to something meaningful and artistic.

If you think it's all ruined by quest markers, or the chore of it bothers you, then to each their own, sure. I have absolutely zero desire to click through a datalog and be told about the world and why things are important. When done in a side quest, I at least meet characters, hear them talk, understand who they are, and why this matters to them, and can then digest whatever greater, more relevant subtext or worldbuilding the quest is communicating.

I agree that abandoning the quest/reward/marker design altogether in favor of branching dialogue/inferred actions needed would be fascinating. That's pretty much exactly what Fromsoft does with "questing" in their Soulslike games. For whatever reason, though, they get a lot of criticism for it.

 

[Shareefruck]

I see a lot of clever subtext in many of these quests. There's a side quest called the Weight of Command that has nothing to do with Clive personally, but thematically it mirrors what his character is beginning to struggle with, as well as serves as strong foreshadowing. There's stuff like this all over the side quests in XIV and XVI. I appreciate that kind of attention to detail in writing, especially video game writing (which is often sophomoric at best). My education background is comparative literature, so I'm always on the lookout for subtext and theme. It elevates drugstore fiction to something meaningful and artistic.

If you think it's all ruined by quest markers, or the chore of it bothers you, then to each their own, sure. I have absolutely zero desire to click through a datalog and be told about the world and why things are important. When done in a side quest, I at least meet characters, hear them talk, understand who they are, and why this matters to them, and can then digest whatever greater, more relevant subtext or worldbuilding the quest is communicating.

I agree that abandoning the quest/reward/marker design altogether in favor of branching dialogue/inferred actions needed would be fascinating. That's pretty much exactly what Fromsoft does with "questing" in their Soulslike games. For whatever reason, though, they get a lot of criticism for it.

I have no doubt that there's story substance to them, I just have a problem with the style, delivery and presentation (which I value just as much, if not more). As for datalogs, I'm thinking of how they're done in Tactics Ogre. You don't always get to play out things that happen in the world around you, but you can watch scenes happening somewhere else, or read about them as they occur, and that to me still feels more elegant and tasteful than being given an arbitrary chore to do that happens to allow you to encounter them along the way.

I dunno, it feels cleaner, more minimal, less needless excess.

I also have this feeling of..... everything just feels like more organic storytelling to merely watch these things unfold, separate from you (in a "meanwhile, in ___" way), rather than coincidentally injecting yourself into the center of every situation artificially in order to obtain that context. Really good data-logs can have that effect on me as well, and I can really like and appreciate that feeling.

Also, it's not the chore of it that bothers me (sometimes I even feel like the more tedious/obtuse, the cooler and more mysterious a secret is)-- it's the framing of it AS a chore given to you to do that bothers me.

Few things gross me out more than a chime playing with the words "QUEST ACCEPTED!" or "QUEST COMPLETED" appearing for every story beat. I have a distaste for that kind of thing in a way that is probably similar to my distaste for achievement systems/notifications in games.