Salary Cap: Faux News: Fehr and Balanced Off-Season Pens coverage

[66-30-33]

I think it's a fair question. Would you rather have Perron at close to 5 mil or Staal at 6. I'm all for putting the money in the top 6, but thats a tough one. Especially if Perron could be used as a chip for Staal.

I'd probably pick Staal, although Perron is pretty good himself, especially 1 on 1.

 

[mpp9]

I think Perron and Staal's production would be very similar given equal PP time. Add in his size, puck possession and defense, I dunno.

I'd feel more comfortable with it if you told me Plotnikov and one of Fehr/Bonino are playing a top 6 role.

Wingers slot in on this team much more easily with Kessel here. You don't need much on the wing. Just a couple 2nd liners and a third wheel opposite of Kessel.

 

[66-30-33]

Perron, Bonino, Scuderi for Staal and something else? I dunno what Staal's value is anymore, but i think it's less then it used to be. Staal would take Bonino's place as a 3C, then we figure out what we will do for Perron's place...

BB-Staal-Dupuis? Now Sutter trade looks like Staal plus the rest for Sutter.

 

[gopens66]

You don't have to put grinders next to Sid and Geno. You just have to jettison Kunitz, Scuderi snd Dupuis and then pay Maatta in hookers and blow.

Can't. The lastest CBA has put an end to the Kevin Stevens-type contracts that circumvent the cap.

 

[Shady Machine]

But the question was Perron at 5 or Staal at 6, are those 1 million dollars really going to "sacrifice depth"? I also don't think that highly of Perron so to me he's expendable.

Every recent cup winner has a strong defensive center, so yes it is a guy you win cups with. The Craig Adams joke/comparison just seems like a lazy talking point.

The Penguins right now have 3, possibly 4 bottom 6 centers and at least 3 of them are known for a solid defensive game. While Staal would help, they don't need him.

I know this is a hypothetical, but in the real world, you have to trade assets to get Jordan Staal. Are you willing to pay the price to get Staal and re-arrange the roster to make it happen?

 

[Speaking Moistly]

For me, Perron's money is being spent exactly where it should be.

It wouldn't be who would i rather have in Staal vs Perron.
It would be, is Perron a fit to be extended and if not trade for a Boedker and spend Perron's money on him. Doesn't have to be Boedker but any winger like him

I want Perron and Boedker. Kessel, Hornqvist, Perron and Boedker would solve the top 6 beautifully for the foreseeable future. No rushing anyone, no constantly looking for a solution, no band aids, no crippling problem in the group. Sure there isn't a huge, physical monster and defensively it would be an adventure, but look at that group. Plotnikov for depth because it's the Penguins.

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

The Penguins right now have 3, possibly 4 bottom 6 centers and at least 3 of them are known for a solid defensive game. While Staal would help, they don't need him.

I know this is a hypothetical, but in the real world, you have to trade assets to get Jordan Staal. Are you willing to pay the price to get Staal and re-arrange the roster to make it happen?

If the main piece going back is Perron, yes.

 

[Shady Machine]

Why can't we just be happy with what we have?

 

[66-30-33]

I want Perron and Boedker. Kessel, Hornqvist, Perron and Boedker would solve the top 6 beautifully for the foreseeable future. No rushing anyone, no constantly looking for a solution, no band aids, no crippling problem in the group. Sure there isn't a huge, physical monster and defensively it would be an adventure, but look at that group. Plotnikov for depth because it's the Penguins.

Boedker-Crosby-Kessel
Perron-Malkin-Hornqvist
Plotkinov-Bonino-BB

Pretty good top 9, especially the top 6. Crosby's line will be all about speed going up the ice, but meh defensivly. But when you're getting like over 200 points for that line i'll take "meh" defensivly.

 

[66-30-33]

Why can't we just be happy with what we have?

Oh i am happy, but then this thread is boring if you're not trying to get richer.

 

[Shady Machine]

If the main piece going back is Perron, yes.

It won't be. Perron has one year left on his deal while Staal is signed for 8 more years. It would have to be Perron, Sprong, 1st, cap dump, possibly more.

Anyway, the only way this deal would even be remotely possible is if Eric is traded. To me that seems like something that would happen at the deadline so this is a next summer deal when Perron is a UFA anyway.

 

[gopens66]

I think there is a lot of assuming that Staal would be happy as pie with third line minutes. None of the big three centers play like they did in 08 and 09. There is no guarantee at all that he'd come here and be happy as a shut-down, penalty-killing center again.

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

It won't be. Perron has one year left on his deal while Staal is signed for 8 more years. It would have to be Perron, Sprong, 1st, cap dump.

I'd do Perron, Sprong, Scuderi, and that 2nd we got. I wouldn't give up a first though.

Perron and Scuderi costs more than Staal and some random dman like Erxon.

 

[Shady Machine]

I'd do Perron, Sprong, Scuderi, and that 2nd we got. I wouldn't give up a first though.

Perron and Scuderi costs more than Staal and some random dman like Erxon.

Why the hell would Carolina do that? Like I said, unless they decide to move Eric, they have no incentive to move Jordan. The only way they move Jordan is if he demands out. That won't happen until later in the season or next summer if it's going to happen.

I guess I'll let you dream but I will gladly enjoy watching Perron in the top 6 while Fehr, Bonino, Cullen, and Sundqvist take the bottom 2 center spots.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Boedker-Crosby-Kessel
Perron-Malkin-Hornqvist
Plotkinov-Bonino-BB

Pretty good top 9, especially the top 6. Crosby's line will be all about speed going up the ice, but meh defensivly. But when you're getting like over 200 points for that line i'll take "meh" defensivly.

Unless Boedker is a free agency acquisition I'd imagine that Bennett would be involved in the trade, but it's beautiful. Neither top 6 line would be the image of defense but they'd be ridiculous offensively. Maybe Kessel discovers defense as he discovers fitness and it's okay.

They'd need to shed Kunitz, Scuderi and Dupuis to make it happen, though. Damn it, Ray.

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

Why the hell would Carolina do that? Like I said, unless they decide to move Eric, they have no incentive to move Jordan. The only way they move Jordan is if he demands out. That won't happen until later in the season or next summer if it's going to happen.

I guess I'll let you dream but I will gladly enjoy watching Perron in the top 6 while Fehr, Bonino, Cullen, and Sundqvist take the bottom 2 center spots.

It was your proposal

The only difference is they get a 2nd this year instead of a 1st next year.

 

[mpp9]

The whole scenario is based off of Jordan wanting out. No way can we give fair value. It'd be a situation where we're competing against ourselves to get him.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I think there is a lot of assuming that Staal would be happy as pie with third line minutes. None of the big three centers play like they did in 08 and 09. There is no guarantee at all that he'd come here and be happy as a shut-down, penalty-killing center again.

Although he was used heavily as a defensive specialist in his first two years in the league, he really wasn't as much in his later years with the Pens. He was looking at Kesler-esque types of zone starts his rookie and sophomore seasons, but a lot more relatively balanced D and O zone starts from 2009-2011.

With the Canes, they've been working towards evening his starts and assignments out more too (when he started with them, he was right back to his early Pens years with defensive assignments).

The big difference seems like the QoC he's playing against. So it's funny, because he absolutely relied on Geno and Sid to get the matchups he could feast on. It was a very symbiotic relationship between our team and Jordan, and it's a shame he didn't see it that way, or he would have been beating up on the Lovejoys of the world, putting up 55 a year, and vying for the Selke every single season.

 

[Riptide]

I wasn't a big fan of the winger pairs idea. I could also see them hindering the top 6 to "maximize" Staal and without Perron they would really only have two guaranteed top 6 wingers for everyone to fight over.

idk about Perron's production, he probably won't get the PP time but who knows what Tocchet will do. Having Crosby, Malkin and Kessel should draw attention away from him and he could benefit from that. Who he's on a line with would be another deciding factor. I think it also really depends on league scoring, if that's low then he definitely won't, if they actively try to help scoring he still might even with low PP time.

If he's on the RW and/or on the 3rd line then **** it all.

If you're paying anything near what Staal is making, then you need to some extent ensure that the 3rd line is a lot more effective and productive then most 3rd lines. In essence you need to attempt to do what MJ tried last year with Bennett and Sutter. Unfortunately Sutter sucks offensively so it was never really going to work.

It's a mindset thing. You either do what JR is currently doing and build completely around the forward group, or you build around 3 amazing centers, and allow for your dominate 3rd line to eat up the depth lines of other teams. I don't really even want to say that that is what Shero did, because he didn't. He ran a 3C model with minimal support/F depth and a strong (and expensive) blueline.

I think in an ideal world you run something of a mix between what Shero wanted to do (3C model) and what Rutherford is actually doing. However as I said yesterday, I think IF we had Staal (say we got him for free), unless Rutherford/our GM did everything right contract wise (aka no expensive depth players and no bad contracts), it would be very hard to have a player of Perron's caliber in the top 6 in addition to Hornqvist and Kessel unless they were drafted/developed players or signed at a discount.

 

[Riptide]

But the question was Perron at 5 or Staal at 6, are those 1 million dollars really going to "sacrifice depth"? I also don't think that highly of Perron so to me he's expendable.

Every recent cup winner has a strong defensive center, so yes it is a guy you win cups with. The Craig Adams joke/comparison just seems like a lazy talking point.

No. The issue however is that it's easier to find a meh #3C (we just signed Fehr as a FA) then it is to find someone that will fit as an offensive top 6 winger to Crosby/Malkin who can actually be effective.

I mean other than Semin who was pulled off the scrap heap this summer, there isn't really all that many options as FAs who we would have been able to target if we didn't have Perron. It would also be a ever changing cast as players like JJ come and succeed, then want to get paid. Not the end of the world... just a pain.

Again, I think that Staal>Perron, value wise (in terms of dollars). But not having an offensive winger of Perron's caliber here (in addition to Kessel) likely hurts this team more than going from Staal to Fehr/Bonino as our #3C.

 

[steveg]

One represents a real need and the other an expensive luxury.

Perron is gonna make people look dumb, this year.

I totally agree with both of these statements...

 

[Giant Yankee Pens]

So we now have:

Perron Crosby Hornqvist
Plotnikov Malkin Kessel
Kunitz Bonino Fehr
Dupuis Cullen Bennett
Farnham

With Dupuis 3RW and Sundqvist/Wilson/WBS 4LW until Fehr comes back.

If JR can just dump Scuderi somehow and sign Ehrhoff for 3M it'd be glorious.

Maatta Letang
Ehrhoff Cole
Pouliot Lovejoy/Dumoulin

Fleury Zatkoff

22 man roster. 1.3M cap space

One can hope!!

 

[billybudd]

Idea of picking Perron over Staal if the money's even close is beyond my understanding. Staal's a better offensive player over his career. Vastly better defensive player. More versatile. All situations forward. Much bigger. Much better skater. Better possession player. Better track record of success.

Even if you played Jordan at wing, you're still much, much improved. He's just significantly better at hockey.

I think there is a lot of assuming that Staal would be happy as pie with third line minutes. None of the big three centers play like they did in 08 and 09. There is no guarantee at all that he'd come here and be happy as a shut-down, penalty-killing center again.

I'm sure Staal would be at his most happy as the first line center on a Leafs dynasty that has all three of his brothers playing prominent roles, but that's not gonna happen.

Within the next 12 months, unless Eric extends (which doesn't look likely), Staal's got a binary choice:

a) play as a 1C on a perennial loser with the worst linemates imaginable after the only reason he wanted to be there packed up and got on a plane, only to return once a year...raising his family in a city he now has limited connections to for the next 9 years of his life

b) force a trade to a short list of places he'd rather live and work. Say, a list of three teams.

Would it really be surprising if he picks b? Or if we made the list?

We should start a Perron vs Staal thread and only gordie and cassius can comment.

I'd love to see that, actually.

 

[penzweiser]

Kunitz-Crosby-Kessel
Plotnikov-Malkin-Hornqvist
Dupuis-Staal-Fehr
Cullen-Sundqvist-Bennett

 

[Beauner]

Kunitz-Crosby-Kessel
Plotnikov-Malkin-Hornqvist
Dupuis-Staal-Fehr
Cullen-Sundqvist-Bennett

Perron?