Fan960 Calgary reports PA rejects League's cap offer

[Phanuthier*]

That's actually a good point. They could hold off on canceling the season to keep the urgency there...reach an agreement, and immediately make the statement,

"We're happy to finally have this behind us, unfortunately we don't feel there's enough time to have a meaningful season, so we regret to have to cancel the remainder of this season"

Actually, nmk, I think the owners folded here in short term gain for long term pain. While I'm sure the owners fudged their profit values last season and in the Levitt report, 42/48 million seems a litle high to be near the 53% of league revenue Bettman is looking for.

Why I do think they are caving, however, is because if the season were to start today, the owners would be paying the players 1/3 of a season's salary, but would benefit in the playoffs in additional revenue.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Actually 53% of zero isnt impossible, if the NHL loses a year or two the attendance for a lot of teams could be so bad I would guess 3-5k people a nite. With the cost of running an arena and paying other employees and other expenses, 53% of the revenues could DEFINITELY mean NHL players would make more money playing in europe. Just look at the attendance drop for baseball after the strike, for hockey it would be even worse.

 

[Sanderson]

Um, no. 53% of the revenues (actually more than 53%...) are going to the players. Team expenses don't cut that amount at all, as they are not included in revenues.

 

[GKJ]

Nope. The NHL will be fine, even if they blow off the whole season. Hockey fans are extremely dedicated, *especially* US fans. The effort a US fan has to go through to follow his team is incredible. It's not front page news, he or she really has to work hard to follow their team.

There are not nearly enough dedicated hockey fans in America. You do have your diehards in the north. Your Detroits, Philadelphias, Minnesotas, New Yorks, Colorados, Columbuses (they market their team well) will be fine. In the South, aside from LA, and maybe Tampa and Dallas, canceling a whole season will just put hockey off the map entirely. With a team in the south (Tampa) winning the Cup, and Nashville making the playoffs, Phoenix built a new arena, And Atlanta on the verge of becoming a really good hockey team, this lockout couldn't happen at a worse time and canceling the season would have unreputable damage to those teams and more importlantly, the fans who make money for those teams.

You can say "that's great, less teams is good," but there's no way the union will let the owners take some of their jobs to go along with their salary cap, and frankly, Gary Bettman won't rest on his mission to make hockey big in the south, even if he takes hockey and puts it in Puerto Rico.

 

[missK]

That's actually a good point. They could hold off on canceling the season to keep the urgency there...reach an agreement, and immediately make the statement,

"We're happy to finally have this behind us, unfortunately we don't feel there's enough time to have a meaningful season, so we regret to have to cancel the remainder of this season"

I expect they will wait until the last possible minute when the season ticket holders revolt to officially "cancel" the season because the minute they do announce it, the teams have to refund all the season ticket holder monies that they have been collecting interest on.

 

[leaflover]

then I think I might have to add my voice to the "break the union" chorus.

Might have to add?
You must be the only person that didn't clearly see where you stood in this.

 

[RangerBoy]

F the NHLPA

 

[tantalum]

The NHL made a proposal during the meeting that was not accepted by the NHLPA. The proposal reportedly included a team-by-team salary cap with no luxury tax involved.

this is the creative offer the owners were talking about? haven't they offered this before?

Not going to read all the responses in this thread. But as has been mentioned time and time again the first thing that has to be done before any exemptions can be negotiated, cap levels negotiated etc is agree on a framework. The NHL has repeatedly laid out the framework they are willing to accept and have not waivered on it. The PA has put forth the framework they are willing to negotiate. The PA is simply not accepting the framework and refuses to negotiate holes into that framework, and vice versa. However it's the owners that hold all the cards in this battle by sticking together and it will cost the union much more if the season gets cancelled IMO. So now they have been fed essentially the same thing from Bettman, Daly, Hotchkiss, and NJ Lou...you'd think they'd figure out the owners aren't backing down and that the owners hold the leverage in this.

To me they are playing right into the NHL's hands. The NHL is offering a system that provides a similar percentage of revenues as the NBA and NFL. The NHLPA is not even attempting to negotiate on that framework to see if they can get similar concessions of free agency, player loopholes etc. If they want to see a hybride with tax/cap then introduce inside that hard cap framework. Negotiate within the framework the owners have offered and have stuck to! Instead they are rejecting these proposals within minutes of getting them. Really the owners have been negotiating with themsleves the last two proposals. It's not up to the owners to negotiate holes in their own framework!By sticking together they have provided the framework and it's time for the NHLPA to counter within that framework. After all if they don't like the concessions they might get in the framework they don't have to ratify the darn thing. Why shouldn't the NHL do the same thing with the NHLPA's offer? As has been mentioned and demonstrated by both sides, the owners sticking to the cap and linkage, the players by validating the Levit report with the rollback and using those numbers in their proposal, the owners hold the much better hand here and get to choose that framework.

I hope the players have fun in Europe for 150k. It won't take long for them to come back to million dollar salaries IMO.

 

[Levitate]

was that an attempt to see how many times you could stick the word "framework" into one post? :lol

I expect they will wait until the last possible minute when the season ticket holders revolt to officially "cancel" the season because the minute they do announce it, the teams have to refund all the season ticket holder monies that they have been collecting interest on.

bingo, that's the real big reason here, not "more negotiation time".


and i think the other thing people aren't really mentioning is the other parts of the proposed deal(s). what if the NHL offered $42 mill cap, but also said "you can't be a free agent until you're 29, you have no arbitration rights either, and you can't make more than $500k in your rookie contract and we can sign that contract for as long as we want". you think the playesr would agree to that even if the cap figure was reasonable? hell no.

complete and utter speculation on my part of course, but my point is that there is still more to these deals than just the cap figure, and those points could be ones that prevent one side or the other from signing off on something that looks favorable on the surface.

 

[SENSible1*]

was that an attempt to see how many times you could stick the word "framework" into one post? :lol



bingo, that's the real big reason here, not "more negotiation time".


and i think the other thing people aren't really mentioning is the other parts of the proposed deal(s). what if the NHL offered $42 mill cap, but also said "you can't be a free agent until you're 29, you have no arbitration rights either, and you can't make more than $500k in your rookie contract and we can sign that contract for as long as we want". you think the playesr would agree to that even if the cap figure was reasonable? hell no.

complete and utter speculation on my part of course, but my point is that there is still more to these deals than just the cap figure, and those points could be ones that prevent one side or the other from signing off on something that looks favorable on the surface.

Ummm...then you make a COUNTER-OFFER addressing the areas you'd like to see changed.

 

[PecaFan]

There are not nearly enough dedicated hockey fans in America. You do have your diehards in the north. In the South, aside from LA, and maybe Tampa and Dallas, canceling a whole season will just put hockey off the map entirely.

Sorry, I simply can't agree. Any fan in the south outside of "Hmm, I think I'll go to this here "har-key" game once) is by my definition a dedicated fan. After the last lockout, attendance actually went *up* overall, as well as in markets like Anaheim, Tampa, etc.

Nope, I simply don't buy this doom and gloom.

 

[Jaysfanatic*]

Free agency is the goal of every pro athlete because that's where the big money is. The sooner you get there, the richer you will be.

That's from a TSN article regarding what will happen to certain players, and rookies, if they can become FA's or not.

Doesn't that just put EVERYTHING into perspective?

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

This is why I think this was not the owners best offer. If Gary Bettman cancels the season, that would be his legacy. Forever. Not expansion into the south. Not how the sport has gone to hell. Not even the first lockout. If he is really ready to do this, he's going to be hated by many many people for the rest of his life. Much like Bud Selig (I don't think he is hated, he is disliked, but his legacy will always be canceling the World Series). He would be better off being exhiled somewhere in some obscure island and being an unknown. If he really thinks that cancelling the season is a viable option, someone has to step up, call him out, and get him out.

And what is Bob Goodenow's legacy? It takes two to tango my friend, and the NHLPA is doing more than their fair share of dancing. They have not counter-offered in the last three or four offers the NHL has tabled. All we hear from the NHLPA is "no cap". Where is their creative answer? Where is their eye on the game and wanting to get back to work. The NHLPA is all about lip service and they have been providing a lot of that during this whole mess. The NHLPA deserves what they get, and right now they are getting nothing. It looks good on them.

 

[Jaysfanatic*]

Son of Steibrenner, I love how you say baseball is stable, when managing general partner comes out and says the following:

"I don't know what happened, maybe they drank some funny water, but they all decided they were back on the binge," McClatchy said. "When somebody goes out and pays an average pitcher $7 million a year, then anybody who's an average pitcher says they need $7 million a year. That's very difficult, and when you're giving pitchers $18 million in arbitration, that also makes it difficult."

http://tsn.ca/mlb/news_story.asp?ID=112945&hubName=mlb

NHL doesn't need this **** to happen. Screw the season.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

In a word No.

but if the owners would have some sort of meaningful revenue sharing plan than perhaps the players would be ok with a connection to salaries and revenues.

Revenue sharing is a load of crap. Why should the players give a rats kiester where the money comes from? News flash! They don't. The only reason the players want revenue sharing is so the NHLPA will have a defined revenue source to milk and guarantee they get every cent of revenue possible. Its the same thing with luxury taxes. The players love them because they are defined and well traceable souce of revenue that can be leveraged. The NHLPA doesn't care about the small market teams getting money from the large market teams for any reason other than their own greed.

 

[Son of Steinbrenner]

Revenue sharing is a load of crap. Why should the players give a rats kiester where the money comes from? News flash! They don't. The only reason the players want revenue sharing is so the NHLPA will have a defined revenue source to milk and guarantee they get every cent of revenue possible. Its the same thing with luxury taxes. The players love them because they are defined and well traceable souce of revenue that can be leveraged. The NHLPA doesn't care about the small market teams getting money from the large market teams for any reason other than their own greed.

Lanny whats wrong with the players knowng how much the owners are making. Perhaps if the owners were honest and opened up the books the players would take them serioiusly when they talk about partnership. No kidding the nhlpa doesn't care about small market teams getting money from large market teams because they don't have too. That is a league problem not a player problem. I love when people bring up greed when it comes to the players but yet don't use that term when it comes to the owners. Guess what lanny in any business (earth lanny hockey is a business) there is greed.

 

[SuperUnknown]

Lanny whats wrong with the players knowng how much the owners are making. Perhaps if the owners were honest and opened up the books the players would take them serioiusly when they talk about partnership. No kidding the nhlpa doesn't care about small market teams getting money from large market teams because they don't have too. That is a league problem not a player problem. I love when people bring up greed when it comes to the players but yet don't use that term when it comes to the owners. Guess what lanny in any business (earth lanny hockey is a business) there is greed.

The owners have opened the books. The NHLPA spent days looking at the owners numbers back in september.

 

[Son of Steinbrenner]

Son of Steibrenner, I love how you say baseball is stable, when managing general partner comes out and says the following:



http://tsn.ca/mlb/news_story.asp?ID=112945&hubName=mlb

NHL doesn't need this **** to happen. Screw the season.

wow an owner of a small market team (who btw gets revenue sharing from large markets teams) complains about spending. I love how angelos complains about salaries now but yet gave albert belle that huge contract :lol

jesus when the yankees won the world series in 96 and 98 baltimore had a HIGHER PAYROLL.

Baseball has never been healthier. Look at the playoff ratings look at the attendance. 10 years ago baseball was behind both football and basketball on the united states rader screen now its maybe #2 behind football but its pretty damn close.

Simple fact since the last cba was signed the average salary of baseball players has gone done while business is booming.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

wow an owner of a small market team (who btw gets revenue sharing from large markets teams) complains about spending. I love how angelos complains about salaries now but yet gave albert belle that huge contract :lol

jesus when the yankees won the world series in 96 and 98 baltimore had a HIGHER PAYROLL.

Baseball has never been healthier. Look at the playoff ratings look at the attendance. 10 years ago baseball was behind both football and basketball on the united states rader screen now its maybe #2 behind football but its pretty damn close.

Simple fact since the last cba was signed the average salary of baseball players has gone done while business is booming.

Baseball is a joke as a sport, and the team that you root for is a prime cause. There is no way that fans of most teams will continue to support so out of whack of a system where the spread between payrolls can be mutiplied by ten.

Every Yankee win should have an asterik beside it, as far as I am concerned they have never won a legit championship, or even the AL. And not only have they ruined a great sport, baseball, but have f*cked up other sports like hockey as well as the idiot who runs the NHLPA patterns himself after doughboy Fehr.

 

[Epsilon]

Baseball is a joke as a sport, and the team that you root for is a prime cause. There is no way that fans of most teams will continue to support so out of whack of a system where the spread between payrolls can be mutiplied by ten.

Every Yankee win should have an asterik beside it, as far as I am concerned they have never won a legit championship, or even the AL. And not only have they ruined a great sport, baseball, but have f*cked up other sports like hockey as well as the idiot who runs the NHLPA patterns himself after doughboy Fehr.

Care to explain why the 1996 Yankees didn't win a "legit" championship? They were's even the highest payroll in baseball, and most thought the Braves would handle them easily in the World Series.

 

[Son of Steinbrenner]

Baseball is a joke as a sport, and the team that you root for is a prime cause. There is no way that fans of most teams will continue to support so out of whack of a system where the spread between payrolls can be mutiplied by ten.

Every Yankee win should have an asterik beside it, as far as I am concerned they have never won a legit championship, or even the AL. And not only have they ruined a great sport, baseball, but have f*cked up other sports like hockey as well as the idiot who runs the NHLPA patterns himself after doughboy Fehr.

you do realize that when the yankees won the world series in 96, 98, 99, and 2000 they DID NOT HAVE THE HIGHEST PAYROLL IN BASEBALL.

if baseball is a joke why are the ratings so high? why are they breaking attendance records?

perhaps you should do some homework before you post because you are making a fool out of yourself..........again.

although who can take anybody seriously when they have the name jaded fan

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Baseball has dropped from world series viewers of 48% of homes or higher from 1968 to 1984 to 25% to 30% from 1993 -2004, and steadily dropping, much closer to 25% of late than 30%. Hell it was only 20% and 21% in 2000 and 2002. Only 25% last year even with that whole friggin' red sox coverage.


http://www.baseball-almanac.com/ws/wstv.shtml

So before you start mouthing off about idiocy, without using a single fact to back your loud mouth stupid 'facts' up, look in the mirror.

Baseball is dying a slow death. You all are killing your audience. Good riddance with people like you supporting that system.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

........ even more proof? Look at the all star ratings and tell me if you see a trend:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/asgbox/asgtv.shtml

 

[Son of Steinbrenner]

Baseball has dropped from world series viewers of 48% of homes or higher from 1968 to 1984 to 25% to 30% from 1993 -2004, and steadily dropping, much closer to 25% of late than 30%. Hell it was only 20% and 21% in 2000 and 2002. Only 25% last year even with that whole friggin' red sox coverage.


http://www.baseball-almanac.com/ws/wstv.shtml

So before you start mouthing off about idiocy, look in the mirror.

Baseball is dying a slow death. You all are killing your audience. Good riddance with people like you supporting that system.

hello how about there were 13 tv stations in america from 1968 to 1980 and zero programing up againts the world series. that all changed during the 80's and 90's. if you don't think baseball is popular i have ask what province or state are you in? what is your favorite team (please say expos i love the real jaded fans :lol )

dude please get your facts straight you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. baseball has never been as popular as today and has a very strong fan base. Please post attendance numbers you know numbers that are concrete. the numbers baseball gets today compared to how many other programing choices people have prove that baseball is flourishing. so i thank you for proving my point for me :lol

 

[Son of Steinbrenner]

........ even more proof? Look at the all star ratings and tell me if you see a trend:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/asgbox/asgtv.shtml

big deal