F Cole Caufield - Univ. of Wisconsin, NCAA (2019, 15th, MTL) Part 2

[JuJu Mobb]

A lot of hot takes in this thread.

 

[Dominance]

I have no issue with people saying he’s a great prospect, because he clearly is. As I have been saying all along, he brings simply terrific value at 15; how often is a guy with legitimate 40 goal potential available there?

Habs fans should be excited. He’s exactly what that team is missing. It’s when people start going overboard and making ridiculous (“10 times better than Turcotte”) or far too early (“he should have gone top-5”) statements in all apparent sincerity, or repeatedly turning to sarcasm to try to gloss over the legitimate shortcomings, that deserves to be called out.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

A lot of hot takes in this thread.

No kidding!.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

He can't skate, he can't pass, he can't defend, he can't he can't he can't.......

He has been pretty much historically good in the NCAA this season, (in goal scoring) yet few here have the nerve to
talk how horrible player he supposedly is. - what ever - i guess not all understand ice hockey

Just from stat point of view:

2nd in NCAA goals, only 3 goals behind the first place, 1 game less played, still can win the goal scoring title
10th in NCAA points, only 6 points behind the third place

Players of his age group: leads the NCAA in goals, points, ppg, shots on goal, pp goals, etc, etc.


All of the above by a freshman, a player that got drafted last year.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

18 goals, 32 points in 28 games so far as a 18-19 year old in the NCAA. (0.65 gpg)

Recent years noticeable players of his age group in the NCAA:

18-19: Joel Farabee - boston university - 17 goals, 36 points in 37 games
17-18: Ryan Poehling - st. cloud state university - 14 goals, 31 points in 36 games
17-18: Brady Tkachuk - boston university - 8 goals, 31 points in 40 games
17-18: Quinn Hughes - university of michigan - 5 goals, 29 points in 37 games
17-18: Josh Norris - university of michigan - 8 goals, 23 points in 37 games
16-17: Clayton Keller - boston university - 21 goals, 45 points in 31 games (0.66 gpg)
16-17: Adam Fox - harvard university - 6 goals, 40 points in 35 games
16-17: Joey Anderson - university of minnesota-duluth - 12 goals, 37 points in 39 games
16-17: Tyson Jost - university of north dakota - 16 goals, 35 points in 33 games
16-17: Dante Fabbro - boston university - 6 goals, 18 points in 36 games
16-17: Kieffer Bellows - boston university - 7 goals, 14 points in 34 games
15-16: Brock Boeser - university of north dakota - 27 goals, 60 points in 42 games (0.64 gpg)
15-16: Colin White - boston college - 19 goals, 43 points in 38 games
15-16: Zach Werenski - university of michigan - 11 goals, 36 points in 36 games
15-16: Tage Thompson - university of connecticut - 14 goals, 32 points in 36 games
15-16: Jack Roslovic - miami university - 10 goals, 26 points in 36 games
15-16: Charlie McAvoy - boston university - 3 goals, 25 points in 37 games
14-15: Jack Eichel - boston university - 26 goals, 71 points in 40 games (0.65 gpg)
14-15: Dylan Larkin - university of michigan - 15 goals, 47 points in 35 games
14-15: Alex Tuch - boston college - 14 goals, 28 points in 38 games
14-15: Nick Schmaltz - university of north dakota - 5 goals, 26 points in 38 games
14-15: Noah Hanifin - boston college - 5 goals, 23 points in 37 games
14-15: Anders Bjork - university of notre dame - 7 goals, 22 points in 41 games

 

[Artorius Horus T]

If he scores either a hatty in the next 3 games, or scores 3 in his 3 next games, he matches Clayton Kellers 0.66 pgp (in 31 games)
from 16-17 season, then again if he scores 4 goals, he beats Keller.

Boeser's total of 27 goals, Eichel's 26 goals, out of reach.

 

[PKWeber]

I have no issue with people saying he’s a great prospect, because he clearly is. As I have been saying all along, he brings simply terrific value at 15; how often is a guy with legitimate 40 goal potential available there?

Habs fans should be excited. He’s exactly what that team is missing. It’s when people start going overboard and making ridiculous (“10 times better than Turcotte”) or far too early (“he should have gone top-5”) statements in all apparent sincerity, or repeatedly turning to sarcasm to try to gloss over the legitimate shortcomings, that deserves to be called out.

Yeah, a 5’7” soft player is exactly what the Habs are missing.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Yeah, a 5’7” soft player is exactly what the Habs are missing.

Who can snipe the puck and who's a legitimate threat to score.

You wouldn't think that would be needed to be spelled out for someone, but this is HF

 

[PKWeber]

Who can snipe the puck and who's a legitimate threat to score.

At the college level yes. But I don’t see him doing that at the NHL level plus his skating is not good for someone that small.

 

[Michoulicious]

If he scores either a hatty in the next 3 games, or scores 3 in his 3 next games, he matches Clayton Kellers 0.66 pgp (in 31 games)
from 16-17 season, then again if he scores 4 goals, he beats Keller.

Boeser's total of 27 goals, Eichel's 26 goals, out of reach.

Kyle Connor scored 35 in 38 a few years back in his D+1. He was playing on a stacked, stacked team however.

Fact he produces without Turcotte is impressive.

As for the ranking debate, like I said, I had him #5 before last draft. Here was my personal top 10.

1. Hugues
2. Kakko
3. Turcotte
4. Byram
5. Caufield
6. Dach
7. Zegras
8. Cozens
9. Podkolzin
10. Boldy

For what it's worth, I'd still pick Turcotte before Caufield... And I thought it was really close between #3 and 10. Still think it is.

Guy was certainly in the mix for a top 10 selection. His USNDP production/international play could not be ignored.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

His offensive instincts are off the charts. With that being said, he is incredibly weak on the puck. Any sort of battle for the puck he will lose fairly easily. He does cherry pick a lot too.

Also, Turcotte hasn't played in like 3 weeks.

More like two weeks. I was at Turcotte’s last game and he played like crap except for the toe-drag assist. And the point was that Caufield doesn’t need Tucotte to score, which was a BS narrative earlier in this thread.

I don’t get why people want Caufield to be some rugged battler. He takes the puck into the middle of the ice. Talk to all the great scorers and they’ll tell you how important it is to just get open.

Holloway is a battler and has four goals. Caufield’s a floater and has 18. I mean, Granato didn’t recruit him to win puck battles.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

At the college level yes. But I don’t see him doing that at the NHL level plus his skating is not good for someone that small.

What exactly makes you think that his ability to score, which hes maintained at every level without showing any signs of slowing down, will suddenly vanish in the NHL?

 

[Hfbsux]

Some posters just can't stand to hear anything negative about their teams prospect, it was the same thing with Poehling last summer when we heard how great he was and the reason why he didn't produce in the NCAA on the best team and one of the top offenses was because of his brothers despite most not even knowing when that took place.

I remember having a 2 page debate with you about Poehling's linemate not long ago. I'm not one of those posters; I've also said Brook flat out sucked defensively everytime I watched him the last 2yrs which you didn't fully agree with.

Back on topic, I hope Caufield signs with us at the end of the year. If he sees the difference of caliber in the AHL/NHL, it might pushes him to train harder this summer and work on his weakness, which should be easier to recognize at that level. Poehling's great game from last year might have created higher expectations, not only from the fans, but from himself too. Being challenged against stronger players and struggling a bit (not too much) for a few games might be great for Caufield's development.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I see nothing wrong with what @Dominance said. The Habs fans are getting too boisterous with some of the opinions they've voiced. They want to have it both ways. When Caufield was getting criticism after the WJC, they wanted level-headed analysis. When he's playing well now, they want to pump him up and disparage others.

Caufield has been good recently. He's having a good season, and is probably justifying his draft slot. A lot of players in the top half of the first round haven't, and the Habs should be pleased that their prospect is one of the few that has. Does it mean Caufield would be a lot higher in a re-draft? Likely not because level-headed teams don't change their opinions based on a little over half a season of one season. Level-headed analysis also doesn't see Caufield become a bad player because he didn't stand out at the WJC. A lot of that criticism was crazy. He barely played at that tournament, it's a very small sample, and how he was used didn't make much sense.

This idea that Caufield is a product of Turcotte is completely made up. I don't think anyone who has watched Wisconsin this season or watched them play prior to this season actually believed that. More than anything, it's a straw man that Habs fans have used and they are conflating a strongly minority opinion from last season that Caufield was a product of Hughes with Caufield is now a product of Turcotte because he's switched from the 1st overall pick as his center to the 5th overall pick. Caufield and Turcotte have also never played that well on the same line. I feel like a lot of these people that discuss them as line mates haven't actually watched very much of them on the same line. There's no reason to compare the two players or argue over who drives the line or whose been better. They play very differently and shouldn't even be on the same line. I find it very weird how these two players are being constantly compared.

And a lot of the Habs fans have unnecessarily disparaged Turcotte. Turcotte has missed 25% of the games this season between illness and injuries. He's had a very inconsistent season and hasn't had the chance to replicate the season's that the other first round pick freshmen have had. He started very well, but then started missing games, and has struggled since. Maybe some of the struggles have had to due with the same reasons he's missed games, and maybe not. Either way, it's been a very uneven season. He was playing as well as any player in the country to start the season, and hasn't been as good since. I thought it looked like he was starting to regain his form a few weeks back, but then he went down with injury. Does it make Caufield look so good that he's having a better season than a guy thats missed a lot of games and has been inconsistent otherwise? Don't try to disparage Turcotte to prop up Caufield because realistically, thats not a winning argument, all things being equal, which they weren't this season.

 

[montreal]

I remember having a 2 page debate with you about Poehling's linemate not long ago. I'm not one of those posters; I've also said Brook flat out sucked defensively everytime I watched him the last 2yrs which you didn't fully agree with.

Back on topic, I hope Caufield signs with us at the end of the year. If he sees the difference of caliber in the AHL/NHL, it might pushes him to train harder this summer and work on his weakness, which should be easier to recognize at that level. Poehling's great game from last year might have created higher expectations, not only from the fans, but from himself too. Being challenged against stronger players and struggling a bit (not too much) for a few games might be great for Caufield's development.

for Poehling I was talking more about the Hab fans over the summer saying he should be in the rookie of the year talk for the upcoming season, which I thought was insane. When I would tell any Hab fans that were overrating him that after watching most of his games in the NCAA since he was drafted that while i liked him a lot i wasn't overly impressed with his skill level as some were talking 60-70 pts for him and while anything is possible I felt they were setting themselves up for disappointment. When I talked about his lack of offense on such good teams over 2 years that were among the very best in terms of goals scored they would just blame it on playing with his brothers to which I took issue with.

Brook we'll see how it goes for him, I was clearly wrong about his defensive issues and IQ, the CHL isn't my strength as they charge way too much for a season pass so my focus is to see just about every AHL game of Laval or wherever our AHL team is and a ton of NCAA with many Euro league games if work doesn't get in the way since they are on then. I try to watch as many CHL games as i can and I did get to see a good bit of Brook in the playoffs but never thought he would struggle so much. He's been a huge disappointment for me and I've had to re-adjust my thinking on his upside due to his IQ concerns. That said he has been mostly much better since the start of the season.

this is how his season has gone so far, (as of a few days ago)

first 19 games, 19-2-0-2, -7, 16 pims (.11 ppg)
next 27 games, 27-2-7-9, -3 16 pims (.33 ppg)


As for Caufield I would be very surprised if he doesn't sign based on his comments going into the season, so unless he's changed his mind then we'll see. I would think his team losing so much doesn't help matters and we know how MB loves to rush his prospects to the NHL so you can just see how it would likely happen.

 

[Digitalbooya]

More like two weeks. I was at Turcotte’s last game and he played like crap except for the toe-drag assist. And the point was that Caufield doesn’t need Tucotte to score, which was a BS narrative earlier in this thread.

I don’t get why people want Caufield to be some rugged battler. He takes the puck into the middle of the ice. Talk to all the great scorers and they’ll tell you how important it is to just get open.

Holloway is a battler and has four goals. Caufield’s a floater and has 18. I mean, Granato didn’t recruit him to win puck battles.

I'd settle for him not being a turnover machine whenever someone is near him, especially with his minimal efforts when it comes to playing defense.

People are so enamored by his ability to do fancy dekes on USHL and college players. What happens when that doesn't fly in the NHL? Designated power play specialist? He won't make it in the NHL unless his high end goal scoring abilities follow. Will they translate? Possibly, but it is 100% a FAIR concern cause he's got nothing else that will make him an NHL player. When you look at a guy like Turcotte, he could 100% play a shutdown 3rd line center in the future if his offense doesn't translate because his game isn't one dimensional.

Also, LOL @ Granato having a plan for anything. Guy is terrible at coaching. Look at Wisconsin's roster of draft picks and tell me how they are 7 games under .500 with 6 regular season games to go. Currently on a 5 game losing streak with no end in sight with PSU, ASU, and OSU coming up. Osiecki, the guy who does the majority of the recruiting, is serving him NHL prospects left and right and he has been trending down for four years.

 

[Hanji]

I'd settle for him not being a turnover machine whenever someone is near him, especially with his minimal efforts when it comes to playing defense.

People are so enamored by his ability to do fancy dekes on USHL and college players. What happens when that doesn't fly in the NHL? Designated power play specialist? He won't make it in the NHL unless his high end goal scoring abilities follow. Will they translate? Possibly, but it is 100% a FAIR concern cause he's got nothing else that will make him an NHL player. When you look at a guy like Turcotte, he could 100% play a shutdown 3rd line center in the future if his offense doesn't translate because his game isn't one dimensional.

Also, LOL @ Granato having a plan for anything. Guy is terrible at coaching. Look at Wisconsin's roster of draft picks and tell me how they are 7 games under .500 with 6 regular season games to go. Currently on a 5 game losing streak with no end in sight with PSU, ASU, and OSU coming up. Osiecki, the guy who does the majority of the recruiting, is serving him NHL prospects left and right and he has been trending down for four years.

Speaking as a fellow Badger fan, Caufield's needs to drop the hot-shot attitude and go to work.
He's an amazing talent, but also a player who puts 0% effort into improving his shortcomings, often to the detriment of the team. That said, his offensive output more than makes up for it. But will it at the next level?

Nobody's asking him to battle in the corners or win the Selke, but at least Cole could put some effort into improving his defensive play and stop turning the puck over every-time he's touched. This wont fly in the NHL, nor will his lack of effort.

His goalscoring prowess is NHL level, but can he survive on that alone? That's a tall order, especially at 5-7. Montreal will need to allocate resources his direction to enable him to perform.
He's gonna need a playmaker, someone to cover for him defensively, and possibly big body to provide protection and space for him to maneuver. Will his output justify the resources he takes up?

 

[WRC]

I knew this thread would blow up eventually. For months it was filled with fans judging Cole on twitter highlights and box scores. Hab fans should be excited about the talent this kid has, but also very concerned. Was there any doubt that he would be able to score at the NCAA level? Never. But that's not the area that needed improvement prior to becoming a pro.

I have watched several games this year, and the UW faithful have plenty to complain about. Descriptions of Cole as being "one-dimensional" and "defensively inept" are more than warranted. Common story-line: Cole goes 1 + 1 with a highlight reel goal, but was also on the ice for 4 against in yet another loss.

I am in no way hating on Caufield. I think the kid is an amazing talent, and has the capabilities to improve his shortcomings. Defensive Hab fans will dismiss all this and blame it on coaching, and they are 100% correct. Granato is terrible. But that should not make you less concerned. Isn't his development still being stunted by a lack of proper guidance? He will never develop a complete, responsible game if he's not taught so, and forced to do so. Unless they put an end to the TG regime at Wisco, the best that Hab fans can hope for is to sign him and get him the hell out of there. AHL? OHL? Who cares? Anywhere but that train wreck in Madison.

 

[Wats]

I think one thing everyone can agree on is he should go back to NCAA for at least another season. Although it's unlikely with Montreal's history but I think he'd be better off with an year in the AHL as well. Granted they have finally sent Poehling/Kotkaniemi/Fleury to AHL so who knows, they might have learned from mistakes.

 

[Techcoockie]

Was there any doubt that he would be able to score at the NCAA level?

Some people had doubt because the NCAA is a older boys league. ( 18 years old vs 22 years old)
but again, he always did well vs NCAA teams with usdp

 

[Breakers]

Kyle Connor scored 35 in 38 a few years back in his D+1. He was playing on a stacked, stacked team however.

He wasnt on a stacked team, he was in a garbage conference
the B1G10 in Connor's year was terrible.

 

[Michoulicious]

He wasnt on a stacked team, he was in a garbage conference
the B1G10 in Connor's year was terrible.

?
The team had Connor, Motte, Werenski, Compher, Nieves, etc... I'd say its as stacked as it comes in the NCAA.

 

[Breakers]

?
The team had Connor, Motte, Werenski, Compher, Nieves, etc... I'd say its as stacked as it comes in the NCAA.

The B1G 10 in Connor's year was 1-18 against the NCHC and had the 4th worst conference record collectively among all 6 conferences. Connor's numbers skyrocketed in conference and weren't good outside of it.

The B1G 10 conference right now is way more competitive than it was in 15/16.

 

[Kennedys]

1st for goals in Big10 conference
2nd for points in Big10 conference
3rd in goals in whole NCAA
13th in points in whole NCAA

Not bad for a 18yo freshman

 

[FreeMcdavid]

He needs to hire a skating coach asap or he will never reach his potential in the NHL.