Proposal: Erik Karlsson for Bo Horvat

[AvatarAang]

Yeah I don't think any of us are trying to say Horvat is better. But we cannot trade him for one year of Karlsson. But if people think we're not going to defend our player well...

One year of Karlsson is more valuable than Horvat locked up. You just ask Karlsson what teams he would re-sign with immediately upon trade, and then you'll easy get 3x more value than Horvat at minimum.

Why is this so hard for certain canucks fans to understand?

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

One year of Karlsson is more valuable than Horvat locked up. You just ask Karlsson what teams he would re-sign with immediately upon trade, and then you'll easy get 3x more value than Horvat at minimum.

Why is this so hard for certain canucks fans to understand?

Mhmm. And if a deal doesn’t work out and he walks at the end of the year? Or other GM’s know the Canucks have to move him? Come on now

 

[JuniorNelson]

Horvat is heavily marketed by the Canucks. I sincerely doubt he'd be moved.

Karlsson will be locked up by Ottawa, no matter what. They would be crazy not to.

 

[AvatarAang]

Mhmm. And if a deal doesn’t work out and he walks at the end of the year? Or other GM’s know the Canucks have to move him? Come on now

Yea because NHL GM's will really pass on the best dman in the world because the other team has to trade him. Great logic.

Oh true, I forgot Benning has no problem letting assets walk without getting anything in return so I guess you have a point. Maybe this scenario only works if you have a competent GM.

 

[blankall]

Horvat has very limited upside. He's basically Ryan Kesler - and a player like that doesn't get you a week of the best defenceman in the world.

Horvat is nowhere near Kesler. Kesler put up two back to back 70+ point seasons, a 40+ goal season, is extremely physical and a pest, and is a beast in the Faceoff circle. Horvat has a long way to go before being on Kesler's level.

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

Yea because NHL GM's will really pass on the best dman in the world because the other team has to trade him. Great logic.

Oh true, I forgot Benning has no problem letting assets walk without getting anything in return so I guess you have a point. Maybe this scenario only works if you have a competent GM.

No, but it very well may handcuff Benning therefore diminishing his trade value. Also, I’m curious as to who you’re referencing besides Hamhuis and Vrbata 2 years ago.

Horvat is nowhere near Kesler. Kesler put up two back to back 70+ point seasons, a 40+ goal season, is extremely physical and a pest, and is a beast in the Faceoff circle. Horvat has a long way to go before being on Kesler's level.

Kesler’s production at Bo’s age was actually less than what Horvat has done. Bo is also plenty good in the dot. And lets be real. Kes is a good player, and had a great year but that 40 goal season was him being a pretty strong benefactor of the Sedins Art Ross years. 37 percent of his goals came on the powerplay

 

[Icebreakers]

Horvat is nowhere near Kesler. Kesler put up two back to back 70+ point seasons, a 40+ goal season, is extremely physical and a pest, and is a beast in the Faceoff circle. Horvat has a long way to go before being on Kesler's level.

Kesler`s two 70 point seasons are an anomaly. Horvat is a much more talented player, Kesler was just a work horse. No one thought Kesler had 70 point potential at Horvats age of 22. Do you know how many points Kesler put up in his 22/23 year old season? 16. Kesler also played behind prime Sedins and with them on the PP.

I could easily see Horvat hit 70 points in the near future. He was on pace for 57 this year on one of the worst offensive teams in the league.

 

[General Disarray]

Canucks take this and run. Then they trade Karlsson for a better package because they are not contending right now.

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

Kesler`s two 70 point seasons are an anomaly. Horvat is a much more talented player, Kesler was just a work horse. No one thought Kesler had 70 point potential at Horvats age of 22. Do you know how many points Kesler put up in his 22/23 year old season? 16. Kesler also played behind prime Sedins and with them on the PP.

I could easily see Horvat hit 70 points in the near future. He was on pace for 57 this year on one of the worst offensive teams in the league.

70 points may be a bit of a reach but yes. Kes did great things here, but he also played with two of the best players in the game in his highest production years

 

[Icebreakers]

70 points may be a bit of a reach but yes. Kes did great things here, but he also played with two of the best players in the game in his highest production years

I dont mean year after year, I mean at his peak. We live in a world where William Karlsson just hit 40 goals and 78 points. Horvat can hit 70.

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

I dont mean year after year, I mean at his peak. We live in a world where William Karlsson just hit 40 goals and 78 points. Horvat can hit 70.

Very true

 

[RandV]

One year of Karlsson is more valuable than Horvat locked up. You just ask Karlsson what teams he would re-sign with immediately upon trade, and then you'll easy get 3x more value than Horvat at minimum.

Why is this so hard for certain canucks fans to understand?

Then why wouldn't Ottawa just deal with that 3rd team in the first place?

Any talk about Karlsson's trade value is moot unless we know what his intentions are. Will he test free agency, or is he willing to negotiate pre-trade and immediately sign an extension with a new team? It would be disastrous for the Canucks to trade Horvat for Karlsson then have him choose to test the market, as no rental piece is going to return that much. From the Sens perspective the most likely two situations are they're either going to get a decent return for Karlsson if he's willing to play ball, though in these situations it will never be ideal, or he decides to test the market and they get screwed with a return a fraction of his value.

The "proposal" is just a bad idea all around because it kind of skirts the vague in-between. To low and/or wrong type of trade for an extended Karlsson, but too much for rental Karlsson. Utterly pointless because the Canucks aren't in much of a position to be trading like that either way.

 

[iFan]

This makes no sense for Vancouver, we’re in a full rebuild and these aren’t moves you make.

 

[AvatarAang]

Then why wouldn't Ottawa just deal with that 3rd team in the first place?

That's not the point of this proposal.

OP suggested Horvat for Karlsson.

certain nucks fans said they would not trade Horvat for Karlsson because he is unsigned. I said if that proposal were ever on the table, they could just re-flip Karlsson for a larger return than Horvat.

To answer your question, the Sens would never trade Karlsson for just Horvat because that would be a terrible return.

 

[Blueangel1891]

This makes no sense for Vancouver, we’re in a full rebuild and these aren’t moves you make.

Our management isn't rebuilding. They might lie to the fans that they are, but trust me, they aren't

 

[Son of Petter]

Pls stop, you're making sensible Canucks fans look bad. Horvat is a good 2C and I agree he has room to grow. Why would we even make this trade, we need young assets. If we're trading one for one try Boeser, which is obviously a non-starter. Not really sure the point of this thread other than to let people know you overvalue Bo.

LMFAO. Bo Horvat is a underrated low end #1 Center with huge upside and tremendous defensively. We’re not trading our #1 Center for a #1 dman in his prime with one year left, because by the time we can contend he’ll be old. Oh and if you think Horvat is an overrated #2 Center then GTFO as you have no idea what you’re talking about

 

[blankall]

Kesler`s two 70 point seasons are an anomaly. Horvat is a much more talented player, Kesler was just a work horse. No one thought Kesler had 70 point potential at Horvats age of 22. Do you know how many points Kesler put up in his 22/23 year old season? 16. Kesler also played behind prime Sedins and with them on the PP.

I could easily see Horvat hit 70 points in the near future. He was on pace for 57 this year on one of the worst offensive teams in the league.

Player X only had X amount of points at X age, is totally flawed logic. Every player develops differently, and you cannot compare. My point was that Kesler brings a lot more than just points to the table.

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

Player X only had X amount of points at X age, is totally flawed logic. Every player develops differently, and you cannot compare. My point was that Kesler brings a lot more than just points to the table.

And that is a fair point. But Bo does as well

 

[crayzy8]

LMFAO. Bo Horvat is a underrated low end #1 Center with huge upside and tremendous defensively. We’re not trading our #1 Center for a #1 dman in his prime with one year left, because by the time we can contend he’ll be old. Oh and if you think Horvat is an overrated #2 Center then GTFO as you have no idea what you’re talking about

Horvat has been in the NHL for 4 years. I don't think you can have the "hug e upside" tag, what you see is what you get, a 40 point player. EK65 has had 6 seasons of 60+ points. You can keep your "huge upside" Cheers

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

Horvat has been in the NHL for 4 years. I don't think you can have the "hug e upside" tag, what you see is what you get, a 40 point player. EK65 has had 6 seasons of 60+ points. You can keep your "huge upside" Cheers

He’s 23.... has had one season over 50 and would’ve had another this year. To suggest
A: He’s done developing
B: He’s a 40 point player
is completely ridiculous

 

[crayzy8]

He’s 23.... has had one season over 50 and would’ve had another this year. To suggest
A: He’s done developing
B: He’s a 40 point player
is completely ridiculous

He's scored 161 points, avg out over 4 years is 40.25 pts. The stats don't lie.

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

He's scored 161 points, avg out over 4 years is 40.25 pts. The stats don't lie.

His rookie year he played almost primarily on the 4th line. Year 2 he got hardly any PP time cause Willie was an idiot. This year he missed 20 games otherwise he would’ve been on pace for almost 60 points. He’s been deployed as a 1/2C the past two seasons and his production has been Indicative of how he’ll produce in the NHL. And again, he’s 23 years old. He’s only gonna get better.

 

[crayzy8]

Karlsson missed basically an entire season after Cook tried to remove his foot from his body. You need to ask yourself why? Why is he on the 4th line, why is he not getting any PP time. This is due to the fact that ownership and coaching doesn't view him as the prospect you think he is.

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

Karlsson missed basically an entire season after Cook tried to remove his foot from his body. You need to ask yourself why? Why is he on the 4th line, why is he not getting any PP time. This is due to the fact that ownership and coaching doesn't view him as the prospect you think he is.

He was on the 4th line cause he was a 19 year old rookie on a playoff team. He didn’t get much PP time in year cause he was a 20 year old playing for an incompetent coach. Notice how each year his production has increased? It’s called developing. He’s not going to be a PPG player. But to suggest that at 23 he’s hit his peak and to call him a career 40 point player while knowing nothing about the team and the player is a bit outlandish.

 

[RandV]

Horvat has been in the NHL for 4 years. I don't think you can have the "hug e upside" tag, what you see is what you get, a 40 point player. EK65 has had 6 seasons of 60+ points. You can keep your "huge upside" Cheers

The spin people put on things can be hilarious. Yeah you can drop a players career point total down on a 4 year career if without any context you include a 25 point rookie season. Horvat's numbers show a clear progression:

GP-P
68-25
82-40
81-52
64-44 (56P over 82GP)

Now that he's moved into the #1 role and finally getting some better line mates (Boeser) he is rounding into a fairly steady 60 point-range center. Potential to go higher in a career year, with potential for 40 or 50 point seasons due to injuries.