Elks: Edmonton Eskimo Thread: 2018 Edition

[guymez]

Having a double standard for Hervey now, are we?

How so?

 

[bone]

To me Jones had a once in a lifetime opportunity to be the Head Coach and GM. A major promotion from being the HC on a team run by Len Rhodes.
He had a chance to have the final say in all things football related and run his own team. Thats a big deal.

Be honest...if the Eskimos weren't the team he vacated I doubt very much you would feel this passionate about it.

Sorry for starting this unintentionally by challenging Jones' character, I actually don't blame Jones for doing it, just wanted to use it as one of many examples where he has shown to be moreso me-first and generally speaking I don't begrudge that in people in competitive industries. For me the far douchier move was Reynolds doing this during Grey Cup week, then leaking it to the media making the discussion during the Grey Cup itself be about Jones leaving. I'll never forgive their franchise for that.

 

[Cloned]

How so?

Giving him the benefit of the doubt in his interactions with Jones post-fiasco but saying he was not a yes-man and was classlessly dismissed from the Esks.

Hervey wasn't an angel either.

He and Jones were both strong personalities. Jones wanted to be "the man." Fine. But don't mercenary away the entire staff and not-so-secretly negotiate a deal with your team's rival in the same league. Viveiros was professional and gracious about it, at least.

 

[guymez]

Sorry for starting this unintentionally by challenging Jones' character, I actually don't blame Jones for doing it, just wanted to use it as one of many examples where he has shown to be moreso me-first and generally speaking I don't begrudge that in people in competitive industries. For me the far *****ier move was Reynolds doing this during Grey Cup week, then leaking it to the media making the discussion during the Grey Cup itself be about Jones leaving. I'll never forgive their franchise for that.

This I agree with 100%.
Reynolds hurt the already severely damaged reputation of the League with his decision to leak that news when he did. We didnt hear about Mannys signing until after the memorial Cup. The Oilers were clearly waiting for it to end before they announced things. Clearly the classy and right thing to do.
Reynolds on the other hand.....

 

[guymez]

Giving him the benefit of the doubt in his interactions with Jones post-fiasco but saying he was not a yes-man and was classlessly dismissed from the Esks.

Hervey wasn't an angel either.

He and Jones were both strong personalities. Jones wanted to be "the man." Fine. But don't mercenary away the entire staff and not-so-secretly negotiate a deal with your team's rival in the same league. Viveiros was professional and gracious about it, at least.

Where did I give Hervey the benefit of the doubt? I did nothing of the sort.

I simply pointed out that the dysfunction in the Eskimo organization falls at the feet of Len Rhodes. If I was looking for employment in the CFL I would look at the Eskimos as a very temporary means of gaining experience so i could go somewhere else when an opportunity became available.
Sound familiar?

 

[Cloned]

Where did I give Hervey the benefit of the doubt? I did nothing of the sort.

I simply pointed out that the dysfunction in the Eskimo organization falls at the feet of Len Rhodes. If I was looking for employment in the CFL I would look at the Eskimos as a very temporary means of gaining experience so i could go somewhere else when an opportunity became available.
Sound familiar?

You dismissed my point about Hervey-Jones by saying it was a cascade effect from Rhodes. Basically minimizing Hervey's responsibility for his own actions and attributing a portion of it to Rhodes.

 

[guymez]

You dismissed my point about Hervey-Jones by saying it was a cascade effect from Rhodes. Basically minimizing Hervey's responsibility for his own actions and attributing a portion of it to Rhodes.

I am saying that we dont know what really happened there and that any reporting on the matter by the Eskimo organization (run by Len Rhodes) is about reliable as bailing out a boat with a spaghetti strainer.

 

[Cloned]

I am saying that we dont know what happened really there and that any reporting on the matter by the Eskimo organization (run by Len Rhodes) is about reliable as bailing out a boat with a spaghetti strainer.

I'm only talking about the actual interchanges between Hervey and Jones; nasty competition for players they were both familiar with, sniping at each other in the media, etc. I don't even know of any official reporting that was done by the Esks organization there.

 

[guymez]

I'm only talking about the actual interchanges between Hervey and Jones; nasty competition for players they were both familiar with, sniping at each other in the media, etc. I don't even know of any official reporting that was done by the Esks organization there.

Any organization (with a dysfunctional leader) that I have ever been apart of experiences breakdowns all down the chain of command. Its inevitable and thats why I hold Len Rhodes responsible.

 

[Cloned]

Any organization (with a dysfunctional leader) that I have ever been apart of experiences breakdowns all down the chain of command. Its inevitable and thats why I hold Len Rhodes responsible.

That's the double standard I'm referring to. You can't build up Hervey as not being a yes-man and then attribute his actions to...being a yes-man.

It's pretty clear Hervey felt disrespected and betrayed by Jones. Probably because what Jones did was a scummy move.

I don't see anyone in the Broncos organization sniping at Viveiros in the media now because he joined the Oilers. Because he didn't secretly negotiate with and leave for a direct rival in the same league, stealing away his original team's entire coaching staff and poaching away some players.

 

[guymez]

That's the double standard I'm referring to. You can't build up Hervey as not being a yes-man and then attribute his actions to...being a yes-man.

It's pretty clear Hervey felt disrespected and betrayed by Jones. Probably because what Jones did was a scummy move.

I don't see anyone in the Broncos organization sniping at Viveiros in the media now because he joined the Oilers.

What...I am not doing that at all. Now you are just making s**t up to try and support your narrative that Jones is scummy.

Seriously...believe that if you want but you haven't made an argument with any merit IMO.

 

[Cloned]

What...I am not doing that at all. Now you are just making s**t up to try and support your narrative.

Are you going to address my point about the stark contrast between Hervey's anger at Jones leaving and the Broncos nothing-but-praise response to Viveiros leaving?

And yes, that is what you're doing. You matter of factly stated Hervey wasn't a yes-man and implied that he was a classier man than Rhodes (both points I agree with, btw), then went on to say that Hervey's responses to Jones after the latter left the Eskimos was largely a cascade effect from Rhodes' influence.

Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

 

[MoneyGuy]

Hey, how about those terrific Grey Cup ticket sales?

(Just trying to change the subject.)

 

[Cloned]

Hey, how about those terrific Grey Cup ticket sales?

(Just trying to change the subject.)

When MoneyGuy becomes the voice of moderation, we know we have gone too far.

 

[guymez]

Are you going to address my point about the stark contrast between Hervey's anger at Jones leaving and the Broncos nothing-but-praise response to Viveiros leaving?

And yes, that is what you're doing. You matter of factly stated Hervey wasn't a yes-man and implied that he was a classier man than Rhodes (both points I agree with, btw), then went on to say that Hervey's responses to Jones after the latter left the Eskimos was largely a cascade effect from Rhodes.

Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Of course Hervey wanst happy...so what? Man if I had a boss like Len Rhodes and I lost out on a good coach like Jones I would be pissed off too. Maybe there was a power struggle internally between Jones (who wanted more say) and Hervey (who didnt want Jones to have more say). Again...so what?

This proves absolutely nothing.

As I said...believe what you want but I see little to no substance in your efforts to support your beliefs that Jones is scummy. I am fine with you believing that. I dont feel that I need to convince you otherwise at this point.

Are we done yet?

 

[MoneyGuy]

When MoneyGuy becomes the voice of moderation, we know we have gone too far.

Hey, I'm misunderstood.

I may change my username to ModerationGuy.

 

[Cloned]

Of course Hervey wanst happy...so what? Man if I had a boss like Len Rhodes and I lost out on a good coach like Jones I would be pissed off too. Maybe there was a power struggle internally between Jones (who wanted more say) and Hervey (who didnt want Jones to have more say). Again...so what?

This proves absolutely nothing.

As I said...believe what you want but I see little to no substance in your efforts to support your beliefs.

Are we done yet?

Nice deflection.

Others can plainly see that you give Hervey far more benefit of the doubt than should be given based on what was directly being reported as occurring between him and Jones. Which is besides the point, really. But now you've attributed the primary cause of Hervey's anger to Jones' leaving as having Rhodes as his boss, which is a ridiculous assertion. You're refusing to accept the fact that the Esks (and Hervey himself) was angry at the way Jones left, instead attributing the anger to the actual existence of Len Rhodes.

You can debate better than that.

 

[Cloned]

Hey, I'm misunderstood.

I may change my username to ModerationGuy.

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

 

[Cerebral]

What is Tevaun Smith’s injury? If he comes to this CFL, is it likely it would be soon? If so, it might make sense to trade one of Behar or Smith for a player at another position (ie. offensive tackle).

Also, when is the supplemental draft? Given our depth issues, I hope we take that offensive tackle.

 

[guymez]

Nice deflection.

Others can plainly see that you give Hervey far more benefit of the doubt than should be given based on what was directly being reported as occurring between him and Jones. Which is besides the point, really. But now you've attributed the primary cause of Hervey's anger to Jones' leaving as having Rhodes as his boss, which is a ridiculous assertion. You're refusing to accept the fact that the Esks (and Hervey himself) was angry at the way Jones left, instead attributing the anger to the actual existence of Len Rhodes.

You can debate better than that.

Sigh...okay. I was trying to give you an out but sure...lets continue.

I am not giving Hervey the benefit of the doubt for anything. He may well have contributed to the issues. I am saying that I dont know for sure. What I do know for sure is that Len Rhodes has no credibility.

Honestly...I think you are seeing what you want to see.

Give me details...show me a post where I whitewash Hervery and or Jones.

Did you not see my last post where I plainly stated that Jones and Hervey may indeed been unhappy with each other?

I have no idea where you are trying to take this. No idea.

 

[Stoneman89]

I think that’s different. If Jones was negotiating with an NFL or NCAA team I would have no problem with it.

Your example is of a guy aspiring to something better than what he currently has. And Jones certainly was presented with that opportunity with the Riders, as Vivieros was with the Oilers. The teams involved or the same league make no difference to me. I think it's exactly the same. And I'd bet this type of thing happens more than we are aware of. Trouble is, someone in the media gets a hold of it in some cases, and then it blows up in public for their scrutiny.
I think Chris Pronger went up to Lowe during the playoff run in 1986 and asked for a trade when the season was done. The optics just get worse when we all know about it.

 

[Stoneman89]

Regardless Manny's head was elsewhere and not focusing on his current job.

And his team might have been banged up and exhausted as well.

 

[Stoneman89]

What is Tevaun Smith’s injury? If he comes to this CFL, is it likely it would be soon? If so, it might make sense to trade one of Behar or Smith for a player at another position (ie. offensive tackle).

Also, when is the supplemental draft? Given our depth issues, I hope we take that offensive tackle.

We are definitely getting a little long in the tooth on the O-line and could use some quality depth. I hope they go after an O-lineman as well. This team needs to keep Reilly upright in order to have any success.

 

[Cloned]

Sigh...okay. I was trying to give you an out but sure...lets continue.

I am not giving Hervey the benefit of the doubt for anything. He may well have contributed to the issues. I am saying that I dont know for sure. What I do know for sure is that Len Rhodes has no credibility.

Honestly...I think you are seeing what you want to see.

Give me details...show me a post where I whitewash Hervery and or Jones.

Did you not see my last post where I plainly stated that Jones and Hervey may indeed been unhappy with each other?

I have no idea where you are trying to take this. No idea.

Now that we've agreed on the facts - Hervey was pissed at Jones for leaving - can you address my point about the stark contrast between Hervey's reaction to Jones' leaving vs. the Broncos' reaction to Viveiros leaving? Because that's where I'm trying to take this: back to my OP on this issue. What Viveiros did is not the same as what Jones did, hence the different reactions.

 

[guymez]

Now that we've agreed on the facts - Hervey was pissed at Jones for leaving - can you address my point about the stark contrast between Hervey's reaction to Jones' leaving vs. the Broncos' reaction to Viveiros leaving? Because that's where I'm trying to take this: back to my OP on this issue. What Viveiros did is not the same as what Jones did, hence the different reactions.

I can address that....its meaningless.

You are trying to tell me that because Hervey was mad (you have no idea what the specifics of why he was mad) is evidence that what Jones did was scummy.

I dont know what to say except that is as flimsy as it gets....lol