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ECHL: Wranglers’ arena woes

GindyDraws

GindyDraws

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The Wranglers have vowed to return for the 2015-16 season. Three months is too much to find a new venue, but a year will be plenty of time. I expect them to go to the MGM Grand.

Still, I think they will add a temporary team to make the West an eight-team conference. Fresno will be that team.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Mar 4, 2002
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JDogindy said:
The Wranglers have vowed to return for the 2015-16 season. Three months is too much to find a new venue, but a year will be plenty of time. I expect them to go to the MGM Grand.

Still, I think they will add a temporary team to make the West an eight-team conference. Fresno will be that team.
Click to expand...

Fresno failed and has the WSHL Tier II Fresno Monsters, selling tix @ www.fresnomonsters.com, JD
 
GindyDraws

GindyDraws

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CHRDANHUTCH said:
Fresno failed and has the WSHL Tier II Fresno Monsters, selling tix @ www.fresnomonsters.com, JD
Click to expand...

Correct, the Falcons folded in December of 2008. But, when the San Francisco Bulls folded, the only potential buyer had interest in putting the assets in Fresno.

And, it only has to be for one season anyway to avoid an embarrassing situation, so the ECHL is going to look for alternative solutions for next year.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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JDogindy said:
Correct, the Falcons folded in December of 2008. But, when the San Francisco Bulls folded, the only potential buyer had interest in putting the assets in Fresno.

And, it only has to be for one season anyway to avoid an embarrassing situation, so the ECHL is going to look for alternative solutions for next year.
Click to expand...

false, the ECHL holds the rights to SF, and any franchise, JD, typically, by agreement, if there's an existing team, they won't be going there.

if Fresno's got the Monsters, unlikely you'll ever see pro hockey return to Seiland or the Save Mart Center, not even temporarily.
 
Ginormousthumbs

Ginormousthumbs

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Not enough time for the E to put an emergency team in the West for this season. They will probably give the 1st seed from the West a bye for the first round, or allow 9 teams from the East to make the playoffs.

If and when the bumbling Wranglers come back, it would be in their best interest to stay away from the strip. I know I wouldn't want to have to hassle with that traffic 36 times a season.
 
GindyDraws

GindyDraws

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Ginormousthumbs said:
Not enough time for the E to put an emergency team in the West for this season. They will probably give the 1st seed from the West a bye for the first round, or allow 9 teams from the East to make the playoffs.

If and when the bumbling Wranglers come back, it would be in their best interest to stay away from the strip. I know I wouldn't want to have to hassle with that traffic 36 times a season.
Click to expand...

Oh, when I'm going to explain to fellow Naptowners about the ECHL next season, they're gonna take one look at the standings and wonder why they even have West Coast teams. Barring the CHL's collapse, a seven-team conference is the future.

I do agree about avoiding the Strip, but I don't think the Wranglers meant this situation to happen.
 
PaulieVegas

PaulieVegas

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Apr 29, 2009
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Las Vegas, Nevada
JDogindy said:
I do agree about avoiding the Strip, but I don't think the Wranglers meant this situation to happen.
Click to expand...

I don't think so either, but honestly, they only have themselves to blame for it. They made their own bed.

Last season, ownership (Gary Jacobs, a San Diego real estate developer with no real ties to the Las Vegas community) decided to run things on the cheap. The team fired a good and experienced coach and hired a rookie coach on the cheap and also handed him the GM title. They slashed their budget for player salaries, which resulted in 5 of the team's 6 top scorers and his starting goalie leaving for better money elsewhere. The team replaced them with cheaper alternatives who weren't up to snuff (seriously, did Anthony Perdicaro or Ryan Forgaard have any business playing at this level?). Hell, even the weekly Saturday night radio show on ESPN 920 was dark half the time with no explanation as to why.

As a direct result of this new "cheap" approach, the team was not competitive. As a further result, attendance suffered. I was a season ticket holder in Section 110 and it was sad to watch the crowd size slowly start to dwindle game after game. Surely, the Boyd Gaming brass had their eyes open and said, "Screw it, if this guy wants to run this organization on the cheap, he can do it somewhere else," and that's why they decided not to renew the lease.

Personally, I don't blame them. The math wasn't hard to do:
(1) cheap owner = non-competitive team
(2) non-competitive team = lower attendance figures
(3) lower attendance figures = fewer people in the arena to buy Boyd Gaming's overpriced beer and pretzels, not to mention fewer people stopping by the blackjack table on the way to their car to lose $50
(4) eff it, from a business perspective this relationship makes no sense.
 
Gibbie42

Gibbie42

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Aug 5, 2011
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Evansville, IN
PaulieVegas said:
I don't think so either, but honestly, they only have themselves to blame for it. They made their own bed.

Last season, ownership (Gary Jacobs, a San Diego real estate developer with no real ties to the Las Vegas community) decided to run things on the cheap. The team fired a good and experienced coach and hired a rookie coach on the cheap and also handed him the GM title. They slashed their budget for player salaries, which resulted in 5 of the team's 6 top scorers and his starting goalie leaving for better money elsewhere. The team replaced them with cheaper alternatives who weren't up to snuff (seriously, did Anthony Perdicaro or Ryan Forgaard have any business playing at this level?). Hell, even the weekly Saturday night radio show on ESPN 920 was dark half the time with no explanation as to why.

As a direct result of this new "cheap" approach, the team was not competitive. As a further result, attendance suffered. I was a season ticket holder in Section 110 and it was sad to watch the crowd size slowly start to dwindle game after game. Surely, the Boyd Gaming brass had their eyes open and said, "Screw it, if this guy wants to run this organization on the cheap, he can do it somewhere else," and that's why they decided not to renew the lease.

Personally, I don't blame them. The math wasn't hard to do:
(1) cheap owner = non-competitive team
(2) non-competitive team = lower attendance figures
(3) lower attendance figures = fewer people in the arena to buy Boyd Gaming's overpriced beer and pretzels, not to mention fewer people stopping by the blackjack table on the way to their car to lose $50
(4) eff it, from a business perspective this relationship makes no sense.
Click to expand...

Vegas' attendance was higher 2013-2014 than it had been in several seasons:

2013-2014: 4581
2012-2013: 4561
2011-2012: 4339
2010-2011: 3940
2009-2010: 4350
2008-2009: 4621
2007-2008: 4970
2006-2007: 5075

So while they had a falloff from early years the attendance was certainly on the upswing.

It seems clear that there was a problem with the relationship between the owner and the hotel, I think it might be simplistic to pin that on team performance and attendance. Besides unless the hotel can fill 36 dates with something else, lower attendance is better than none at all.

ECHL Attendance stats
 
Last edited:
PCSPounder

PCSPounder

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Gibbie42 said:
Vegas' attendance was higher 2013-2014 than it had been in several seasons:

2013-2014: 4581
2012-2013: 4561
2011-2012: 4339
2010-2011: 3940
2009-2010: 4350
2008-2009: 4621
2007-2008: 4970
2006-2007: 5075

So while they had a falloff from early years the attendance was certainly on the upswing.

It seems clear that there was a problem with the relationship between the owner and the hotel, I think it might be simplistic to pin that on team performance and attendance. Besides unless the hotel can fill 36 dates with something else, lower attendance is better than none at all.

ECHL Attendance stats
Click to expand...

May I offer the basic disclaimer?

Never mind, I'll actually expand on it anyway. Announced attendance numbers are part of a POLITICAL game. They're easily maneuvered and almost never audited.

You could argue those numbers are accurate and still talk about adjusted promotions that might have brought more people into particular games. You could also say the team had a reason for adding more "comps" to the numbers. Pictorial evidence between 12-13 and 13-14 would be nice to have, but I won't hold my breath.
 

Off da post and in

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Dec 2, 2013
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SFTC Addict said:
They won't come back. I'd bet a fortune on it really.
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Here's an idea!!
You seem to know so much about what the ECHL should and shouldn't do, and you're very critical about them with such regularity and sureness. Why don't you go to one of their casinos and put that fortune where you mouth is ?
I can assure you some casino will accommodate such a wager. :D
 
Sports Enthusiast

Sports Enthusiast

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Off da post and in said:
Here's an idea!!
You seem to know so much about what the ECHL should and shouldn't do, and you're very critical about them with such regularity and sureness. Why don't you go to one of their casinos and put that fortune where you mouth is ?
I can assure you some casino will accommodate such a wager. :D
Click to expand...

Well Vegas is forever away and I doubt a casino in upstate NY like turning stone will have a rats *** idea about what I'm talking about.
 
PaulieVegas

PaulieVegas

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Apr 29, 2009
709
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Las Vegas, Nevada
PCSPounder said:
May I offer the basic disclaimer?

Never mind, I'll actually expand on it anyway. Announced attendance numbers are part of a POLITICAL game. They're easily maneuvered and almost never audited.

You could argue those numbers are accurate and still talk about adjusted promotions that might have brought more people into particular games. You could also say the team had a reason for adding more "comps" to the numbers. Pictorial evidence between 12-13 and 13-14 would be nice to have, but I won't hold my breath.
Click to expand...

Exactly. When you go to enough games over the years, you get a good feel for what attendance is like. I went to probably 25 games last year, including the two playoff games, and there were far more empty seats than the previous two seasons. There were nights towards the end of the year where the arena was so empty I could hear people shouting from the other end of the arena. The playoffs were especially sad, lots of empty seats, I would be surprised if we got 3,000 fans for either game.

It's now early December and there has been no new local news or even rumors about the return of the Wranglers and/or where they might play. It's fair to say we've seen the last of them.
 

Hoodaha

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PaulieVegas said:
Exactly. When you go to enough games over the years, you get a good feel for what attendance is like. I went to probably 25 games last year, including the two playoff games, and there were far more empty seats than the previous two seasons. There were nights towards the end of the year where the arena was so empty I could hear people shouting from the other end of the arena. The playoffs were especially sad, lots of empty seats, I would be surprised if we got 3,000 fans for either game.

It's now early December and there has been no new local news or even rumors about the return of the Wranglers and/or where they might play. It's fair to say we've seen the last of them.
Click to expand...

I think it's safe to assume that the future of an ECHL Vegas depends a whole lot on the rumored NHL expansion and the situation with the AHL getting a Western conference.

As to the attendance, yes, all teams play these games with the numbers, but from all the accounts I've heard, team financial issues were not the problem in Vegas...it was the arena owners that were the problem. By the way, minor league hockey is pretty notorious for having smaller crowds during the playoffs, at least until the later rounds.
 
Ginormousthumbs

Ginormousthumbs

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I believe the Wranglers have until January to inform the E of their intentions for the 15-16 season. I've heard zero news. I expect the next announcement to be that of them folding.
 
GindyDraws

GindyDraws

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Hoodaha

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lvwranglersfan said:
Well, in what could either be the end or a brand new beginning, the team president of the Wranglers quit today.

http://lasvegassun.com/blogs/kats-report/2014/dec/23/billy-johnson-las-vegas-wranglers-team-president-e/

If it is true that the issue with the Orleans was because of him, this could open some things up, otherwise it could just be the end. Time will tell.
Click to expand...

With the NHL sniffing around and no arena this year, this was bound to happen. I think the Wranglers are done. It's a shame, but hey, at least the Vegas fans may get NHL (or at least expansion NHL) hockey at some point in the near future.I'm glad that the door isn't entirely closed there.
 
lvwranglersfan

lvwranglersfan

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Hoodaha said:
With the NHL sniffing around and no arena this year, this was bound to happen. I think the Wranglers are done. It's a shame, but hey, at least the Vegas fans may get NHL (or at least expansion NHL) hockey at some point in the near future.I'm glad that the door isn't entirely closed there.
Click to expand...

So we get hockey for 3 years until they figure out it is a horrible idea. Then we are without again. No one has come up with a business plan that works. To say Vegas fans will pay an average of $60 a ticket, which by definition means half of them are priced above that, is ridiculous. People can't afford that here. And to market to the visiting team is just stupid. You can't tell me that when Florida or Carolina come out here for a Wednesday night game that their fans will come out. And to rely on the casinos giving away tickets is equally dumb. But hopefully I am wrong and it works, but I would rather of kept my minor league hockey. I love the ECHL product. For a 3rd of the price of an NHL game, I am not getting a 3rd of the product, which to me makes it a value.
 
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