News Article: Dundon on the Arena
- Thread starter Unsustainable
- Start date
HisIceness
This is Hurricanes Hockey
What would a light rail system look like assuming Raleigh, Durham, and Chapel Hill all eventually get a line or two. Have a line run from UNC to DT Raleigh with stops at Southpoint, RTP, RDU, Harrison ave. in Cary, Fairgrounds/Stadium/Arena, NCSU, Raleigh Amtrak and then DT Raleigh? Then a feeder line to Duke/DT Durham running parallel to 147?
With Charlotte it's easier as a good chunk of industry is Uptown and there were existing bridges and tracks already in place. A metro with two cities and a college town spread out is a little harder but doable.
With Charlotte it's easier as a good chunk of industry is Uptown and there were existing bridges and tracks already in place. A metro with two cities and a college town spread out is a little harder but doable.
Navin R Slavin
Fifth line center
There's already heavy rail that runs that stretch. I've never understood why they don't figure out commuter rail, which could easily run from Garner to Burlington.
One of my college friends works at TTA now.
Aside from the politics of the issue, one of the bigger issues is that RDU would require jumping across I-40 to get there. That increases the cost by a huge amount, but it's likely the #1 destination people want from light rail.
This is the other issue: getting right of way from the commercial train lines has been hard enough for Amtrak. Getting a more consistent light rail going through is a non-starter for the commercial rail lines who have the contracts for those lines. I don't know how long those contracts for commercial right of way are.
Navin R Slavin
Fifth line center
I remember looking into this once and discovering that the track from Charlotte to Morehead City is owned by the NC Railroad Company, which should theoretically make obtaining right of way easier than if the track were owned by NS or CSX -- but yes, the contracts would need to be renegotiated.
NotOpie
"Puck don't lie"
For any light rail system to not only work in the Triangle, but to be equitably smart, that system would have to serve:
1. Southeast Raleigh
2. RDU
3. Downtown Raleigh
4. NCSU/Hillsborough St. area
5. Fairgrounds/PNC
6. North Raleigh
7. Harrison Ave. area
8. RTP
9. Southpoint/South Durham
10. Duke University/Duke Medical Center
11. Downtown Durham
12. UNC/Downtown Chapel Hill
Various spurs could eventually serve the Garner/Clayton area, the Knightdale area, Cary/Morrisville area, Northern Durham area, and even the Hillsborough area. If the system doesn't serve the populations most in need of public transportation, then it won't be fair to the fullest range of populations. If it doesn't serve the business commuter, it won't see the level of usage necessary. If it doesn't serve the airport, it is just stupid. And if it doesn't serve the downtown areas of the Triangle's 3 major metros, it is a farce.
1. Southeast Raleigh
2. RDU
3. Downtown Raleigh
4. NCSU/Hillsborough St. area
5. Fairgrounds/PNC
6. North Raleigh
7. Harrison Ave. area
8. RTP
9. Southpoint/South Durham
10. Duke University/Duke Medical Center
11. Downtown Durham
12. UNC/Downtown Chapel Hill
Various spurs could eventually serve the Garner/Clayton area, the Knightdale area, Cary/Morrisville area, Northern Durham area, and even the Hillsborough area. If the system doesn't serve the populations most in need of public transportation, then it won't be fair to the fullest range of populations. If it doesn't serve the business commuter, it won't see the level of usage necessary. If it doesn't serve the airport, it is just stupid. And if it doesn't serve the downtown areas of the Triangle's 3 major metros, it is a farce.
Biggest issue with trying to serve RTP is that RTP is not easily walkable. How many stops do you put in RTP to get to a critical mass of people? How do you get people from the light rail stop to their workplace? RTP was not built with mass transit in mind and it's going to take a lot of work to make that feasible.
Svechhammer
THIS is hockey?
- Jun 8, 2017
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I was just about to type that out. You'd need multiple loops in the Raleigh area for this to work. One hub from downtown Raleigh that serves Chapel Hill and Durham, and make it follow US 70, hitting North Hills, Crabtree, Pleasant Valley, Brier Creek, Southpoint, etc, and then redirects from downtown to Cary/Apex (hitting Crossroads as well), before terminating around Holly Springs. You could have that one stop at RDU. From the RDU station, you could then have another branch for RTP which basically hits key points through the Park to hit the major work spots.
TheBigKahuna
Registered User
We filled out questionnaires in RTP, many years ago. It centered around mass transit and trains. I guess they wanted to get an idea of how the RTP workers felt about it. They spelled it out, that you'd be responsible for getting yourself from home to the train, most likely using large commuter lots. And then riding a bus from the train to work. I felt like it was a huge waste of time, in effect, doubling my commute times.
- Feb 23, 2014
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Is it just me or did someone else too start hearing this in their head?
NotOpie
"Puck don't lie"
Yup, I was pointing out that for it to be feasible initially, most of these places would have to be included. As far as RTP was concerned, I could easily see a self-contained bus service working, but it wouldn't be perfect. Maybe some enhanced shared ride services could help.
The larger point is that there are some defined destinations that would have to be included. In some of the early iterations the airport wasn't included, Southeast Raleigh wasn't included, etc. I think it would initially have to start with a single rail/loop that basically went from downtown Raleigh to Chapel Hill to Durham (or to Durham and then to Chapel Hill). The various other "destinations would have to then be served by spurs or some such.
Sounds like the perfect fit for a monorail....is Walt Disney available?
Navin R Slavin
Fifth line center
The area is too spread out to serve with any transit, really. The planners will have to decide where they want density and infill, and start catering to it.
Downtown Raleigh and Downtown Durham are filling up. Commuter rail between Raleigh and Durham, with strategic lines out to park and rides, would be a simple and more or less future proof solution. It's not like DTD/DTR are gonna get less developed.
Of course, we're spending all our money on light rail instead, so. Whatever.
Downtown Raleigh and Downtown Durham are filling up. Commuter rail between Raleigh and Durham, with strategic lines out to park and rides, would be a simple and more or less future proof solution. It's not like DTD/DTR are gonna get less developed.
Of course, we're spending all our money on light rail instead, so. Whatever.
poobags
8) 8) 8( 8)
Negan4Coach
Fantastic and Stochastic
It'll be feasible in another 10 years after every other muldoon on the Eastern Seaboard has decided to move here and our traffic resembles NOVA.
I think a great start would be linking RTP with all the spread out bedroom communities, like Wake Forest and Garner who have the longest commutes then expand from there. Maybe put several smaller monorails that connect the RTP stop to SAS, IBM, etc. The airport is close enough to town that it doesnt really need rail at this point, IMO.
bleedgreen
Registered User
loved that episode.
No but I hear this guy is.
- Feb 18, 2018
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Elsker
Registered User
What can (and does) serve all these destinations are busses. And it is increasing the frequency and reach of that service that Wake decided to spend the initial wave of funds upon.
Commuter rail linking to Orange/Durham light rail (if/when it happens) is Phase 2.
With wi-fi and modern interior designs today’s busses are a sweet ride if residence and destination are in density zones that support bus service. Electric busses are being introduced into fleets. They’re not your dad’s bus.
Flexibility of routes, period of time between busses, and accommodation of new development give that option a big edge over fixed rail, not to mention capital investments levels.
Navin R Slavin
Fifth line center
I am actually super excited by the future of self driving vehicles, because I think buses become amazing in a hurry. Fixed and highly circumscribed routes, and removing the need for scheduling drivers, creates the possibility of just-in-time fleet management. An Uber-like experience for buses is coming at some point, and it'll be highly complementary with other transit modes.
The biggest problem with buses is that we associate them with poor people. That's got to change at some point.
Anyway. I would love to see the DRX to Raleigh run all day, instead of just at rush hour.
The biggest problem with buses is that we associate them with poor people. That's got to change at some point.
Anyway. I would love to see the DRX to Raleigh run all day, instead of just at rush hour.
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cptjeff
Reprehensible User
As somebody who rides a bus most days, lol no. Yeah, they're better than older buses, but they're still slow, jerky, and cramped, and the arrival times are far less consistent. Rail is smooth, significantly faster, and generally much more comfortable. I'm seriously looking at changing jobs because I got moved to a new office that's not on the metro and I have to take that bus. Even a decent bus is still a significant step down from light or heavy rail.
Also- light rail has more upfront costs than buses do, but the operating costs are significantly lower. So you're not actually saving any money by using a bus instead of a streetcar, and you're getting a much lower quality service.
NotOpie
"Puck don't lie"
Development actually follows public transit like light rail/subway. I used to be philosophically against publicly subsidized public transit until I spent more time in larger cities and saw how much it benefited not just huge swaths of the population, but entire neighborhoods/areas. Plop a subway stop in an area and development magically follows. I don't care if it is modern driverless buses or subways or light rail or whatever, I now believe that good public transportation is a solid investment communities can make.
From the various plans that I've seen over the years (with the exception of the Durham/Chapel Hill/Orange Co. one), most of these plans omit major, near mandatory locales. You simply cannot leave East Raleigh/Wake Co. out of it (not only SE Raleigh, mind you, but the eastern half of the city and county). Park and ride types of destinations would almost certainly be a good start. The airport has to be included. Stops in Cary and the RTP have to be included. To me, the easy part of the plan is incorporating Chapel Hill and Durham which could serve as the natural "return loop" to greater Raleigh.
I'm not saying it will be easy (right of ways, land acquisition, crossing interstates, etc.), but the ability to put a plan in place and start with the knowledge that you're going to expand across the Triangle would go a long way. Keep in mind that both Amazon and Apple highly valued good public transit. We didn't have that to offer.
From the various plans that I've seen over the years (with the exception of the Durham/Chapel Hill/Orange Co. one), most of these plans omit major, near mandatory locales. You simply cannot leave East Raleigh/Wake Co. out of it (not only SE Raleigh, mind you, but the eastern half of the city and county). Park and ride types of destinations would almost certainly be a good start. The airport has to be included. Stops in Cary and the RTP have to be included. To me, the easy part of the plan is incorporating Chapel Hill and Durham which could serve as the natural "return loop" to greater Raleigh.
I'm not saying it will be easy (right of ways, land acquisition, crossing interstates, etc.), but the ability to put a plan in place and start with the knowledge that you're going to expand across the Triangle would go a long way. Keep in mind that both Amazon and Apple highly valued good public transit. We didn't have that to offer.
The problem with public transit is that it has become associated with one political party, so the other works against it just because. In this state, you'd have a better chance of passing the necessary funding for mandated 100% renewable energy before any public railway funding was found.
- Oct 31, 2007
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From the Q&A article with Dundon:
You’ve said before that it’s a challenge having a non-downtown arena. Is that something you see yourself continuing to work around or are there plans to change it?
Our biggest focus right now is to put ourselves in a position to succeed in Raleigh. We’re at a point where we’re working to figure out all of the options, then exploring all the different options to see what’s best.
(Editor’s note: More to come from me on what those options are)
Sarah also followed up in the comments saying that she'll expand on this in another article, it required more follow-up from different people that she had to contact. But she did say that it sounded like Dundon was focused on making it work in Raleigh first and foremost.
You’ve said before that it’s a challenge having a non-downtown arena. Is that something you see yourself continuing to work around or are there plans to change it?
Our biggest focus right now is to put ourselves in a position to succeed in Raleigh. We’re at a point where we’re working to figure out all of the options, then exploring all the different options to see what’s best.
(Editor’s note: More to come from me on what those options are)
Sarah also followed up in the comments saying that she'll expand on this in another article, it required more follow-up from different people that she had to contact. But she did say that it sounded like Dundon was focused on making it work in Raleigh first and foremost.
I'm not reassured by the recently repeatedly mentioned subject of how hard the Canes will try to make things work in Raleigh. I was kinda hoping that was a given when Dundon bought the team.
Navin R Slavin
Fifth line center
Exactly. This should be a given, and shouldn't even merit discussion.
